Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VI

[verbal8]

What makes Faried a tweener? His standing reach is 9'0". He's got ideal length for a PF.

Back to this for a second: We don't have standing reach numbers on Bennett, but two years ago, as a kid that had just turned 18, Bennett measured at 6'7" with a 7'1" wingspan. Faried measured 6'7.5" wiht a 7'0" wingspan at the draft combine, at age 21.

Why are you so quick to assume Bennett is a tweener, while calling Faried's length 'ideal'?

Frankly, this whole discussion of Bennett as a tweene is nonsensical without updated measurements.

Looking at the DX database, Faried is very unusual to have such a tall reach with those measurements. 8'10 or shorter is more typical of guys at 6'7" and roughly 7'0" wingspans.

[Dat2U]

There were significant concerns about whether Faried had the strength and length to play the 4.

There were also significant concerns as to whether Harris had the athleticism to play the 3.

The measurements clearly showed Faried had the ideal size to play PF. He wasn't undersized by any means. Anyone with an internet connection would have known that had they done the research.

I never heard any athleticism questions related to Harris up until your post. I think his skill was questioned but most seemed to think he was going to be a SF.

At 6'8, he's slightly undersized at the power forward position, and lacks the athleticism, explosiveness and foot speed to guard most NBA small forwards

http://www.nbadraft.net/players/tobias-harris

Hindsight is 20/20. There were legit questions as to what position he would play in the NBA going into the draft.

Ok, my memory fails me. I actually never had Harris rated very high in my own stuff. I don't ever remember questioning his athleticism but I do remember wondering where his skillset best fit as a pro. He's kind of always flew under my radar though. However looking at his breakout last year, it may have been more of a case of a guy getting shots up as opposed to him really playing at a high level.

[Mizerooskie]

I don't have to rewrite squat. Do you need Chad Ford to tell you how to wipe your ass too? I didn't know he was the only source of info on draft prospects. So his word is as good as gold???? Anyone considering Faried undersized at the time simply didn't do the research. The measurements where available long before the 2011 draft. When I watched him play, he looked like the biggest & most active dude on the court. He looked like a big PF to me. I said as much at time. I don't have to rewrite a damn thing. You can look up what I said.

Well, you are re-writing "squat', as Faried was clearly considered a tweener in the draft, and you've clearly indicated that he wasn't. Keep ignoring the evidence (which took me all of 5 minutes to find) if you choose.

And you do realize that Chad Ford doesn't provide his own opinions, right? All the stuff in the ESPN draft profiles that he puts together comes from NBA scouts.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised though. This is your shtick. You take your stance, and anyone that speaks to the contrary is immediately an incompetent idiot.

[Dat2U]

Of course wingspan means something. How many guys with T-Rex arms are top bigs in the NBA? Joakim Noah has a middling standing reach (8'10.5"), but a very good wingspan (7'1.25"), and he's one of the best defensive bigs in the league.

Of course you mention the ONLY starting center (and only decent one at that) in the NBA with a standing reach under 8'11. So since Joakim is successful that means it must apply to everybody else right? LOL, whatever.

[Dark Faze]

Harris and Faried.

Harris is a strong SF. Strong SF's like Bron and Melo aren't tweeners. They are just very good, versatile players that can play minutes at the 4, but they are primarily SF's.

Tweeners are the reverse. They are primarily 4's that play some minutes at the 3 (usually because they aren't doing their jobs as big men).

Faried is a tweener though and he's the best example we've had for over a decade.Thing about Faried though is he fully embraced and has only ever played as a PF. He doesn't try to be a perimeter guy at all.

Don't re-write history to fit your narrative. Tweeners are guys whose size and athleticism casts doubts as to whether they're an ideal fit for any one position. Harris and Faried both fall into that category.

I never had doubt that Harris could play SF. Don't put words in my mouth. I consider him to be a strong SF like LeBron/Melo. I don't consider him a tweener and never had. He's primarily an SF.

As for Faried, I never really speculated him in the past at all. He's never really been on my radar.

There's a huge difference between being a tweener and being undersized. Everyone knew Faried was a pure PF. There was a lot of question as to if he was undersized for the position, but again, that's a completely different thing than the obstacles that being a tweener brings to the table.

[Dat2U]

I don't have to rewrite squat. Do you need Chad Ford to tell you how to wipe your ass too? I didn't know he was the only source of info on draft prospects. So his word is as good as gold???? Anyone considering Faried undersized at the time simply didn't do the research. The measurements where available long before the 2011 draft. When I watched him play, he looked like the biggest & most active dude on the court. He looked like a big PF to me. I said as much at time. I don't have to rewrite a damn thing. You can look up what I said.

Well, you are re-writing "squat', as Faried was clearly considered a tweener in the draft, and you've clearly indicated that he wasn't. Keep ignoring the evidence (which took me all of 5 minutes to find) if you choose.

And you do realize that Chad Ford doesn't provide his own opinions, right? All the stuff in the ESPN draft profiles that he puts together comes from NBA scouts.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised though. This is your shtick. You take your stance, and anyone that speaks to the contrary is immediately an incompetent idiot.

My shtick? LOL. Good one.

But I do wonder if your slow because your not getting it.

Faried was considered a tweener.... BY WHO?????? Ford, DX, various NBA analysts, coaches, etc....? Fine.


My point is he WAS NOT A TWEENER. My point is if you knew what to look for, you would have known he wasn't a tweener.

So are you basing Faried being a tweener because someone else told you he was a tweener or because when you evaluated all aspects of his game, you came to the conclusion he was a tweener. If it's the former then you probably should just shut up because your a mouth piece for someone else and didn't do the research yourself and if it's the latter then maybe you should take another look at how your analyzing things.

[Deeptu McPullup]

Looking at the DX database, Faried is very unusual to have such a tall reach with those measurements. 8'10 or shorter is more typical of guys at 6'7" and roughly 7'0" wingspans.

He's got narrow shoulders.

I have the Wizards @ Nuggets game on my comp which I just opened now and he looks a little bit slighter of build overall than Wilson Chandler, though with longer arms.

In eyeballing him, let's just say you wouldn't want him to lose any weight.

[DCZards]

Of course you mention the ONLY starting center (and only decent one at that) in the NBA with a standing reach under 8'11. So since Joakim is successful that means it must apply to everybody else right? LOL, whatever.

No, but what Noah's numbers do say is that you run the risk of missing out on very good players (and maybe future all-stars) by focusing too much on things like height and reach--and who is and is not a "tweener" --and not enough on talent and intangibles.

[Wizardspride]

At last.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn5U7aI2Ng[/youtube]

[pancakes3]

Faried wasn't a tweener, he was just undersized. Nothing about his game in college said SF. He didn't take 3's, his FT% was troubling low, and oh... he rebounded like a BEAST. He was no more a SF than Dejuan Blair was. Both were power guys whose lack of height gave GM's pause.

As for shticks? Tobias Harris - now with 2 years of NBA experience, is only 4 months older than Shabazz and 8 months older than Bennett.

[jivelikenice]

At last.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn5U7aI2Ng[/youtube]

I felt like I was watching Javale. The highlights were spectacular, and the lowlights would make you want to slam your head into a wall.

[Dat2U]

Of course you mention the ONLY starting center (and only decent one at that) in the NBA with a standing reach under 8'11. So since Joakim is successful that means it must apply to everybody else right? LOL, whatever.

No, but what Noah's numbers do say is that you run the risk of missing out on very good players (and maybe future all-stars) by focusing too much on things like height and reach--and who is and is not a "tweener" --and not enough on talent and intangibles.

There's outliers for everything, of course. But there's also a lot to be learned from history. If history tells us that 95% of PFs with a standing reach under 8'9 do diddly squat or 97% of Cs under 8'11 don't make it, then that's something you must give huge consideration to.

Joakim Noah's energy and activity level gives him a unique selling propotion that the vast majority of other bigs can't bring. Same with Blake Griffin and his athleticism. If a guy has something incredibly unique, then of course you've got to look at the whole picture before drawing final conclusions.

[Dat2U]

Faried wasn't a tweener, he was just undersized. Nothing about his game in college said SF. He didn't take 3's, his FT% was troubling low, and oh... he rebounded like a BEAST. He was no more a SF than Dejuan Blair was. Both were power guys whose lack of height gave GM's pause.

As for shticks? Tobias Harris - now with 2 years of NBA experience, is only 4 months older than Shabazz and 8 months older than Bennett.

Undersized only in height. Length wise he's ideal for a PF. He's got enough length to play stretches at C in small ball scenarios.

[Wizardspride]

At last.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbn5U7aI2Ng[/youtube]

I felt like I was watching Javale. The highlights were spectacular, and the lowlights would make you want to slam your head into a wall.

Alex is MUCH more skilled than McGee.

In fact, Alex has shown more improvement in two years than Javale has shown in 5+ years.

[dobrojim]

Looking at the DX database, Faried is very unusual to have such a tall reach with those measurements. 8'10 or shorter is more typical of guys at 6'7" and roughly 7'0" wingspans.

He's got narrow shoulders.

I have the Wizards @ Nuggets game on my comp which I just opened now and he looks a little bit slighter of build overall than Wilson Chandler, though with longer arms.

In eyeballing him, let's just say you wouldn't want him to lose any weight.

interesting you mention that game as it's on my DVR still and I happened to watch a couple
quarters of it last night. Our bigs dominated Faried in that game. I think there is
a case to be made that Faried IS a tweener. He couldn't guard either Okafor
or Seraphin, neither of whom is thought of as particularly long.

He's a great athlete with a great motor to go with it. But I'm not sure if he can
take the next step in the NBA, to become more than a role player, albeit a good/very good one.
But he's kinda small to guard legit sized NBA 4s. He's succeeded thus far on motor and hops.

[tontoz]

Faried wasn't a tweener, he was just undersized. Nothing about his game in college said SF. He didn't take 3's, his FT% was troubling low, and oh... he rebounded like a BEAST. He was no more a SF than Dejuan Blair was. Both were power guys whose lack of height gave GM's pause.

As for shticks? Tobias Harris - now with 2 years of NBA experience, is only 4 months older than Shabazz and 8 months older than Bennett.

Undersized only in height and weight. Length wise he's ideal for a PF. He's got enough length to play stretches at C in small ball scenarios.

FYP

[jivelikenice]

Wizardspride- Im referring to the no left, being pushed off the block by guards and smaller defenders, and forcing bad shots when he doesn't have good position. Skill gets marginalized if you can't establish position on the floor. At 8 I would have considered him. At 3...No chance....

[dobrojim]

Yeah, because trading with Minnesota always seems to work out really well for us.

green font?

LOL

[Ruzious]

Fwiw, Tobias Harris had his success with Orlando mainly as a... Power Forward. He played mostly with Harkless - who's their 3. So, you could still consider him a tweener. I pegged him way back as a poor man's Melo, and I'd still describe him that way. How poor is in the eye of the beholder. In college, he was pudgy and had a lot of baby fat. He barely looks like the same guy now.

[Illuminaire]

I love the draft. Always brings out the fire in Dat.

On the actual topic, I tend to agree with a cautious assessment of Benneyt's overall value. Yes, he brings explosion and offensive iso savvy. He will probably be an OK rebounder at the NBA level, possibly even good. But for Bennett to turn out as an overall plus player (not just scoring), he has long list to check off:

* Overcome a chronic asthma problem
* Avoid injuries and stay in great shape
* Learn how to play offense within a team concept - cut, provide spacing, and pass effectively
* Actually care about playing defense, lolz
* Learn how to play strong positional defense against guys that are either faster or bigger than him

That's a lot of what ifs. Now, he doesn't need to hit all of those to be a solid NBA player. But he DOES need to hit most of them to be more than an OK starter. To be a star talent he has to make the team better, not just get his own numbers on decent-to-good efficiency, and that means checking off all of the above to some degree. I think it's fair to be excited about Bennett's potential, but equally fair to be concerned at all the work he'll need to do to ever reach it.

By contrast, I look at Porter play and think he can be an effective 2-way player from day one. He doesn't look like he has 25 ppg potential the way a perfect scenario version of Bennett does, but he also doesn't have that checklist of questions before he can help a team win.... and arguably, his 2-way ceiling is just as high as Bennett's offensive ceiling.

I think Porter has higher immediate impact, and the difference in potential overall impact is not worth all the red flags. Just my 2 cents.