John Wall is the best PG in the East right now

[Illmatic21]

I said the gap between them as *scorers* is considerable. Only referring to scoring.

Irving is slumping, his past track record shows that he's normally more efficient than he's been this season. He was a great NBA scorer his first two seasons. I'm not ready to call Wall a great or even good scorer at this point. He's a poor/streaky shooter from everywhere outside of the elbows, and doesn't draw fouls or finish at the rim frequently enough to make up for it.

Irving is just 21 years old. To say "he's not going to come close" to Gilbert's peak doesn't make much sense. Very few scoring PGs in history were comparable to Irving at his age. There's no reason why he can't be a similar or better scorer than prime Arenas. His FT rate is a bit low, but prior to this season he's been the more accurate 3pt-shooter. If he starts taking more 3pt attempts and hits them at a good clip (ala Lillard this year, or Curry), his efficiency numbers will look pretty good.

[nuposse04]

Irving has had some monster games as of late...he's every bit as streaky when it comes to shooting. He's had his fair share of nights where he's looked pretty awful. Scoring 3 pts more a game on nearly the same TS also isn't "considerable" in my book. He's no Durant/Melo/LBJ. Or even Kevin Love now, as much as it pains me to admit that one.

[Brenice]

One difference I'm seeing is Wall plays better in first halfs of the game and Kyrie, 2nd halfs.

Wall and the Wizard lose leadas they get complacent. Wall has to learn to put teams away. That will be learned probably.

Kyie coasts in the first half of games and tries to go berserk in the second, probably conserving energy. He needs to learn to run an offense in the first half and not let his team play 4 against 5 in first halfs. Thats why Cleveland gets behind in games. Will better teammates remedy that? Or will Kyrie learn or want to be an active distributor/participant when not in score-mode?

Both are works in progress. That's what you get with one year of college experience. Stay tuned.

[nate33]

I just wanted to say that I'm growing more and more pleased with Wall as our franchise player and team leader. His game is nowhere near perfect yet, but I really like his mental toughness, leadership, and work ethic. I truly think he is driven to be the best PG in the game and won't stop busting his ass until he gets there. That type of attitude may be more important than his actual on the court production. I really think he's going to get better and better. He won't peak until his late 20's.

[dckingsfan]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrank ... rseason/PG

Not that this is worth it's salt - but it does Wall, Irving, Lowry and Walker as the top 4 in the east - interesting.

[hands11]

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400489326

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_ ... /john-wall

POTM

[tontoz]

I just wanted to say that I'm growing more and more pleased with Wall as our franchise player and team leader. His game is nowhere near perfect yet, but I really like his mental toughness, leadership, and work ethic. I truly think he is driven to be the best PG in the game and won't stop busting his ass until he gets there. That type of attitude may be more important than his actual on the court production. I really think he's going to get better and better. He won't peak until his late 20's.

Agreed. I feel better about him now than i did last summer. This past month his 3 point shot has been off and he still makes too many careless turnovers, but he is playing like a legit All-Star.

He is changing his pace like he never used to do. He is more in control when driving which gives him more options when finishing. The maturation in his game is obvious. He isn't having a real breakout season, more like a natural progression.

You can tell he wants to win really bad. Sometimes his intensity can be counterproductive. Sometimes he tries to do too much late in games but from a young player i am ok with that. Being successful in the NBA isn't easy. There are great athletes on the other team game planning to stop you. They aren't having much luck lately stopping Wall though.

[dlts20]

Wall now over 20ppg and up to 43% shooting after starting off very slow at scoring and shooting in the 30's. I told people when he becomes more aggressive like last year, his FG% will go way up

[dobrojim]

Still not quite at the level he played at in Mar last season. He still has upward mobility,
figuratively and literally.

[doclinkin]

I just wanted to say that I'm growing more and more pleased with Wall as our franchise player and team leader. His game is nowhere near perfect yet, but I really like his mental toughness, leadership, and work ethic. I truly think he is driven to be the best PG in the game and won't stop busting his ass until he gets there. That type of attitude may be more important than his actual on the court production. I really think he's going to get better and better. He won't peak until his late 20's.

Can't find it but I read an article recently lauding Stephen Curry, talking bout how he was the most valuable player to his team on the offensive end of any team in the league. That his effect on court raised the %'s of all players he played with since his teammates found themselves wide open. The stats were well sourced, interesting tables, data, etc.

But buried in the slobjob on Del Curry's boy was the fact that if you account for defense as well as offense, there is no player in the league more valuable than John Wall. That with Jpwn on Court his teams score more and defend better by a wide margin than the combined margin of any other player. LeBron James was the 2nd most important player in that measure.

(Hard to replicate without the article in front of me since I dont recall what defensive measure they used, but using the 82games on/off stats there are only two starters in the league with a higher net on/off value: Kevin love at +26.8pts net on/off, and Paul George at +26.1 pts. Pretty good company for Jpwn Wall and his +25.5 pts).

Now this says more I suppose about how miserable Maynor is and how mediocre Garret Temple, since Stef Curry is elevating the game play of former all-stars like Iggy and offensive snipers like Klay Thompson, but still, that level of most valuable is key to note when we're looking at the highest paid player on a team.

David Halberstam once said about Jordan that he was "one of the rarest things in all sports: a supremely talented over-achiever". Wall isn't there yet, he hasn't let lived up to his talent level, but that ladder is soooo damn high that most players never reach to the rungs that he starts on. There is no PG in the league as big fast and athletic as John, and I'd be hard pressed to think of an NBA antecedent. On talent level he's a bigger faster Kevin Johnson. Now he may never live up to all of that talent, but his emotional make-up suggests he'll make a good go of trying. Pretty easy to root for the guy.

[Illmatic21]

Wall's scoring ability is progressing faster than I expected. I was hyped when he busted out the one-legged fadeaway off the glass, and then the Steph Curry-esque fake/fadeaway to seal the game.

Also, one of his main problems as a scorer before was that he couldn't get to the basket in the halfcourt. You need a combination of speed, handle, and body control to be great at slicing through the lane (ala Rose, Westbrook, CP3, Parker) and he really only had the speed. Today he showed better body control and in-between handle to get to the rim. He still looks a bit out of control when driving and lost the ball/got stripped a few times, but there's definite improvement there.

If Wall tightens up his handle to where he has the ball on a string, he'll be able to get to the rim at will whether it's in halfcourt or transition. That's when we could see his FG% shoot way up, to like 46-48%+

[Illmatic21]

Irving has had some monster games as of late...he's every bit as streaky when it comes to shooting. He's had his fair share of nights where he's looked pretty awful. Scoring 3 pts more a game on nearly the same TS also isn't "considerable" in my book. He's no Durant/Melo/LBJ. Or even Kevin Love now, as much as it pains me to admit that one.

Irving isn't normally a "streaky" shooter.. he's basically had that one extended bad streak in his career, and he looks to be putting that behind him now. I'm not gonna hold that bad stretch against him too much.

Of course he's not any of those guys, but he is one of only two NBA players with multiple 40-point games this season (the other is Love). The fact that he's had a bunch of bad games and his season averages are still pretty good, tells you how hot he's been lately.

If Wall had the same scoring arsenal as Irving but just wasn't as good at it, I would see your point. But when Wall basically has no outside game (and Irving is normally not just a good, but an excellent 3pt shooter) I think that qualifies as a considerable difference in the scoring department. The gap is closing, but I do still think it's considerable given Irving's refined ability to create shots in multiple situations + being more of a threat from deep.

[doclinkin]

John Wall trails only Chris Paul in various passing measures (assists per game, per 48, 2ndary assists per game --ie passes that lead to passes that lead to points, etc.)

He and Stef Curry jockey for 2nd place in total points accounted for, when you tally the sum of points plus assisted points.

All three are ahead of LeBJ in cumulative points generated by their efforts.

Consider:

Code: Select all

Assisted Points per Game + Points per Game.
Chris Paul  :  25.5 + 19.9 = 45.9 total pts per game
Stef Curry  :  21.6 + 23.0 = 44.6 total pts per game
John Wall   :  22.0 + 19.9 = 41.9 total pts per game
LeBron James:  15.6 + 25.4 = 41.0 total pts per game

Compared with high scorers like
Durant: 39.5 combined points
Harden: 36.9
Kyrie I: 36.5
Kev Love: 36.0

All of which reminds you of the real value of a true point guard. Though consider how good Jpwn's stats would look with a true low-post scorer or two like CP3's lob city duo.

[hands11]

The team is 4-1 when Wall gets 10 FTAs or more.

Would be 5-0 had he not taken so many bad shoots against MIL

[Dark Faze]

Irving is obviously a much better scorer than John, but when you're giving up 34 and 14 along with a gamewinner to Jeff Teague I mean...cmon.

[Illuminaire]

This word, "scorer", keeps getting thrown around. Perhaps someone should define it.

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season. I don't mean to presume any elses' perspective, but I suspect there is some observational bias based on how slick Irving's moves are. He just LOOKS great out there, crossing people over and smoothly elevating to shoot.

Results matter more than form though. Currently I'm not seeing a huge divergence in results between March 2013->This Season Wall and Kyrie Irving.

[Kanyewest]

This word, "scorer", keeps getting thrown around. Perhaps someone should define it.

Because when you say "scorer" I think the number of points scored, and the efficiency with which they are accumulated. By that definition Irving is not a much better scorer this season. I don't mean to presume any elses' perspective, but I suspect there is some observational bias based on how slick Irving's moves are. He just LOOKS great out there, crossing people over and smoothly elevating to shoot.

Results matter more than form though. Currently I'm not seeing a huge divergence in results between March 2013->This Season Wall and Kyrie Irving.

Irving overall has had a better TS% throughout his career but right now Irving and Wall have identical TS% for the season.

[Youheardme90]

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.6
2. Kevin Love-MIN 28.7
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 28.3
4. Chris Paul-LAC 27.3
5. Anthony Davis-NOP 27.2
6. DeMarcus Cousins-SAC 26.8
7. Paul George-IND 24.0
8. Carmelo Anthony-NYK 23.7
9. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 23.4
10. Stephen Curry-GSW 23.3
11. Isaiah Thomas-SAC 22.7
12. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 22.6
13. Dwyane Wade-MIA 22.6
14. Al Horford-ATL 22.3
15. Jordan Hill-LAL 22.3
16. Dwight Howard-HOU 22.2
17. Andre Drummond-DET 21.9
18. Russell Westbrook-OKC 21.3
19. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.1
20. John Wall-WAS 20.9

[DCZards]

Can't find it but I read an article recently lauding Stephen Curry, talking bout how he was the most valuable player to his team on the offensive end of any team in the league. That his effect on court raised the %'s of all players he played with since his teammates found themselves wide open. The stats were well sourced, interesting tables, data, etc.

But buried in the slobjob on Del Curry's boy was the fact that if you account for defense as well as offense, there is no player in the league more valuable than John Wall. That with Jpwn on Court his teams score more and defend better by a wide margin than the combined margin of any other player. LeBron James was the 2nd most important player in that measure.

I totally get why people love Steph Curry, particularly as a shooter and scorer. And this year his assists are up. I have Curry on my fantasy team and I'm loving it!

But when you look at the total package (especially defense, size and athleticism), Wall is every bit as good as Del's boy if not better. Wall has become one of the top five PGs in the game, only surpassed by Chris Paul, Westbrook and the injured Rose.

JW may never be worth the max $$$ he just signed for...but I'm betting that he'll come awfully close to earning/deserving every penny of it.

Edit to add: forgot to put T. Parker up there ahead of Wall.

[tontoz]

JJ hasn't posted in awhile. Maybe he is starting to feel "haunted".