Deni Avdija

[payitforward]

I seem to remember Rui getting excessive criticism from a certain poster, certainly far more criticism than Deni has ever gotten.

Balls.... I've criticized Rui when he doesn't play well, & I've praised Rui when he does play well. The problem is that he hasn't played well very often.

For that matter, you will recall that I've already said I might have been wrong when I liked our picking Deni -- that remains the case. But my point was that, in the first 4 games, Deni played extremely well (not last night, however).

I don't criticize players who are playing well. For that matter, there isn't a lot of point in "criticizing" players even if they aren't playing well. I just don't call them future stars for doing it. Not to mention that Rui is 3 full years older than Deni Avdija (minus a couple of weeks...).

I'd love to see Rui do well in the league. & he improved towards the end of last season. Unlike you guys & Deni, I didn't criticize Rui for playing better.

[willbcocks]

Deni looks like his goal out there is not to get in trouble or mess up, probably because he has no confidence in his touch shooting the ball. He doesn't look like he's having any fun. He's only doing things on offense (shooting, driving to the basket) when he knows he needs to do it or he'll get criticized. Otherwise, his main goal seems to be to dump it off to a teammate or make himself invisible so he hopefully doesn't have to touch the ball.

Defense doesn't relate to his shooting touch, so he's fine there, though it's not like he's leaving it all on the court to earn more minutes, since I doubt he wants them.

I was never great at basketball, but I played the exact same way after I hurt my hand and lost my shooting touch, so that's what I see. It's hard to fix confidence issues; I hope he does though. Otherwise, he's going to look like he's not hurting the team in the box score because he's not making mistakes, whereas he's really making the team play close to 4 on 5 on offense.

[payitforward]

Deni doesn't look like his goal is not to get in trouble or mess up. He doesn't look to me like he lacks confidence shooting the ball. When I watch him play, I don't see a guy who's not having any fun. I see a guy high fiving teammates -- that looks like fun. He's doing things on offense (shooting, driving to the basket) in the flow of the game. His main goal seems to be to help the team win the game. Of course when he doesn't have opportunity, he passes the ball to a teammate -- "passes" not "dumps it off."

His defense really is good. The effort & skill are both high & will no doubt earn him minutes, which I'm sure he wants.

I was never any good at basketball either. Then again, basketball was not what I decided to devote my life to, & it's not what I became an elite success doing when I was barely a teenager, the way Deni did. But of course in the areas where I did set out to make my mark & where I did have success, I gained a lot of confidence -- just as Deni became the confident basketball player he is. That's why if I followed up a stretch of productivity (say the equivalent of going 8-14 shooting in basketball the way Deni did in our first 4 games) experiencing a short bad stretch (say the equivalent of going 1-8 in a game the way Deni did last night) wouldn't make either me or anyone on my "team" imagine that I'd lost my touch or, really, that I posed any kind of problem for those with whom I worked.

Is that what you mean, willbcocks?

[Ruzious]

Yeah, I'd lean more towards what pif said there. From what he's said, I think Deni wants to be more involved in the offense - as a distributor more than a catch and shoot guy. He thinks of himself as more of a play-maker than a scorer. And I think the plan is to get him to be more used as a secondary distributor. Hopefully, he'll be able to do both - be a good catch and shoot player and a good secondary distributor - I think it's a reasonable expectation.

[willbcocks]

No, what I meant actually had nothing to do with what you see when you watch the game PIF. It was actually about what I see.

[Kanyewest]

Deni looked like he was off after he missed that dunk on the fast break. He simply didn't have the lift, it happens (see Bradley Beal's missed layups from a few days ago). Others have mentioned that he is coming off in a knee injury. And it was the 2nd game off a back to back.

He didn't have a short memory in this game - he did look a bit off after that. Also, it didn't help that the remainder of his minutes were in the center spot in crunch time- replacing Harrell with an injury. That being said, I expect it was just a bad day for Deni and he'll play better in the next one.

[payitforward]

No, what I meant actually had nothing to do with what you see when you watch the game PIF. It was actually about what I see.

I knew that! Just yanking your chain a little bit.

It's all good, brother -- we are 4-1. & I'm sure both of us want every single player on the team to succeed! Go Wiz!!

[tontoz]

Yeah, I'd lean more towards what pif said there. From what he's said, I think Deni wants to be more involved in the offense - as a distributor more than a catch and shoot guy. He thinks of himself as more of a play-maker than a scorer. And I think the plan is to get him to be more used as a secondary distributor. Hopefully, he'll be able to do both - be a good catch and shoot player and a good secondary distributor - I think it's a reasonable expectation.

In order to be a playmaker you have to do something with the ball when you get it. Too often he doesn't even try to do anything, just gives it up quickly.

[payitforward]

Yeah, I'd lean more towards what pif said there. From what he's said, I think Deni wants to be more involved in the offense - as a distributor more than a catch and shoot guy. He thinks of himself as more of a play-maker than a scorer. And I think the plan is to get him to be more used as a secondary distributor. Hopefully, he'll be able to do both - be a good catch and shoot player and a good secondary distributor - I think it's a reasonable expectation.

Yup.... & I remind us all that this is a 20-year old kid!

[DCZards]

Kuzma embraces Deni after he misses a layup. Tells him shyt happens and not to get down on himself.

Read on Twitter

[DCZards]

I'm sorta in the middle of willbcocks and pif.

It doesn't look to me like Deni is playing scared or worried about getting pulled for a mistake.

But, while on paper it may look differently, I don't think Deni has played all that great thus far this season. Love his defense and rebounding. But on offense he is still very tentative and lacking the confidence he needs to play at the NBA level.

But overall I'm happy with Deni's development. The 20 year old is still learning how to play at the NBA speed and up against some of the greatest athletes in the world. But you can see him growing more comfortable—and starting to figure out how someone with his skillset can help his team win.

Most importantly, imo, we're beginning to see more and more glimpses of Deni's playmaking skills.

[payitforward]

In truth... Zards about nails it.

Biggest factors:

1. He's only 20 years old.
2. He has a very advanced skillset.
3. There are important facets of his game that have not yet been activated in the NBA context.

Result? Deni Avdija has a good chance to become an outstanding NBA player. It'll be fun to watch him this year -- working with a completely different coaching staff.

As far as that goes... rinse & repeat for Rui Hachimura. I hope he comes back soon -- look forward to seeing Wes & his guys work with him!

[Ruzious]

Kuzma embraces Deni after he misses a layup. Tells him shyt happens and not to get down on himself.

Read on Twitter

Love to see that - and the Trez/Beal show below that - good to see Trez has lightened up.

[NatP4]

Deni looks like his goal out there is not to get in trouble or mess up, probably because he has no confidence in his touch shooting the ball. He doesn't look like he's having any fun. He's only doing things on offense (shooting, driving to the basket) when he knows he needs to do it or he'll get criticized. Otherwise, his main goal seems to be to dump it off to a teammate or make himself invisible so he hopefully doesn't have to touch the ball.

Defense doesn't relate to his shooting touch, so he's fine there, though it's not like he's leaving it all on the court to earn more minutes, since I doubt he wants them.

I was never great at basketball, but I played the exact same way after I hurt my hand and lost my shooting touch, so that's what I see. It's hard to fix confidence issues; I hope he does though. Otherwise, he's going to look like he's not hurting the team in the box score because he's not making mistakes, whereas he's really making the team play close to 4 on 5 on offense.

Everyone thought it was great to have Westbrook and Beal mentoring Deni last year, but it never actually looked like leadership to me, just looked like everyone used Deni as a scapegoat because he was a 19 year old rookie from Europe. Same goes for Scott Brooks. He’s always been a lame people pleasing coach that would only yell and blame certain players. Guy could never call out John Wall or Westbrook for all the dumb selfish plays they would make but had zero issue blaming unselfish team guys like Otto Porter and Tomas Satoransky whenever things went wrong.

Deni gets blamed and over critiqued ever since he got here. It’s bizarre in comparison to a guy like Rui who was basically given the keys to the franchise from day 1.

They genuinely might’ve screwed Deni up already.

[2Fluffy4U]

Yeah, I'd lean more towards what pif said there. From what he's said, I think Deni wants to be more involved in the offense - as a distributor more than a catch and shoot guy. He thinks of himself as more of a play-maker than a scorer. And I think the plan is to get him to be more used as a secondary distributor. Hopefully, he'll be able to do both - be a good catch and shoot player and a good secondary distributor - I think it's a reasonable expectation.

In order to be a playmaker you have to do something with the ball when you get it. Too often he doesn't even try to do anything, just gives it up quickly.

I think giving the ball quickly - actually means doing something with the ball when you get it.
Its called 'Ball movement' and it is the side-effect of having Euro background. Euro mentality while learning the game at young age is that it is all about the team and collaboration between the players to maximize each others strengths.. The transition to the NBA and Stats padding mentality is not that easy for Euro players.
I genuinely believe Avdija is passing the ball so much not because he is afraid to hog it (he is not too confident either non the less) - but because he is used to initiate an attack following planned attacking schemes and ball movements. ISO ball is not something that was ever expected of him throughout his entire career and it is a new aspect of the game he now needs to learn and sharpen his skills for.

[tontoz]

Yeah, I'd lean more towards what pif said there. From what he's said, I think Deni wants to be more involved in the offense - as a distributor more than a catch and shoot guy. He thinks of himself as more of a play-maker than a scorer. And I think the plan is to get him to be more used as a secondary distributor. Hopefully, he'll be able to do both - be a good catch and shoot player and a good secondary distributor - I think it's a reasonable expectation.

In order to be a playmaker you have to do something with the ball when you get it. Too often he doesn't even try to do anything, just gives it up quickly.

I think giving the ball quickly - actually means doing something with the ball when you get it.
Its called 'Ball movement' and it is the side-effect of having Euro background. Euro mentality while learning the game at young age is that it is all about the team and collaboration between the players to maximize each others strengths.. The transition to the NBA and Stats padding mentality is not that easy for Euro players.
I genuinely believe Avdija is passing the ball so much not because he is afraid to hog it (he is not too confident either non the less) - but because he is used to initiate an attack following planned attacking schemes and ball movements. ISO ball is not something that was ever expected of him throughout his entire career and it is a new aspect of the game he now needs to learn and sharpen his skills for.

Getting rid of the ball quickly can be a good thing if you are passing to an open teammate. Given that he is averaging only 2 assists per 36 minutes, 3 per 100 possessions, I don't think that is what is going on.

Looks like he is playing hot potato with the ball. He isn't putting pressure on his defender.

I would like to seem him get more shots up, even if he misses a lot of them. He is taking only 9 shots per 36.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Deni looks like his goal out there is not to get in trouble or mess up, probably because he has no confidence in his touch shooting the ball. He doesn't look like he's having any fun. He's only doing things on offense (shooting, driving to the basket) when he knows he needs to do it or he'll get criticized. Otherwise, his main goal seems to be to dump it off to a teammate or make himself invisible so he hopefully doesn't have to touch the ball.

Defense doesn't relate to his shooting touch, so he's fine there, though it's not like he's leaving it all on the court to earn more minutes, since I doubt he wants them.

I was never great at basketball, but I played the exact same way after I hurt my hand and lost my shooting touch, so that's what I see. It's hard to fix confidence issues; I hope he does though. Otherwise, he's going to look like he's not hurting the team in the box score because he's not making mistakes, whereas he's really making the team play close to 4 on 5 on offense.

Everyone thought it was great to have Westbrook and Beal mentoring Deni last year, but it never actually looked like leadership to me, just looked like everyone used Deni as a scapegoat because he was a 19 year old rookie from Europe. Same goes for Scott Brooks. He’s always been a lame people pleasing coach that would only yell and blame certain players. Guy could never call out John Wall or Westbrook for all the dumb selfish plays they would make but had zero issue blaming unselfish team guys like Otto Porter and Tomas Satoransky whenever things went wrong.

Deni gets blamed and over critiqued ever since he got here. It’s bizarre in comparison to a guy like Rui who was basically given the keys to the franchise from day 1.

They genuinely might’ve screwed Deni up already.

Black players do not get ostracized in the NBA.

Thank you for reminding me about why I despised Brooks. He bullied certain players. He never confronted others. Scotty B placated the most egregious on court violations by Westbrook and Wall. Turnovers and defensive lapses, as well as forced shots were tolerated. He waited to make examples of guys like Satoransky.

Scott Brooks was terrible.

[willbcocks]

Looks like he is playing hot potato with the ball. He isn't putting pressure on his defender.

I would like to seem him get more shots up, even if he misses a lot of them. He is taking only 9 shots per 36.

Yeah, I want to see him put more pressure on the defense when he has the ball; if his skill on offense is playmaking, he's gotta do more than handoffs and predictable swing passes that are usually multiple passes away from anything happening.

If he can't put pressure on the defense because his dribble isn't there yet, which I suspect is also the case, he needs to be more decisive in his cuts and movements.

Clearly he's young and I still think he's out best prospect, but it's tough for me to watch him now.

[prime1time]

Not sure how people are so optimistic on Avdija. His shooting is a major major problem. 31% from 3 for his career and 27% this season.His shooting is vastly more important than his ability to create off the dribble. I don't know how long we can justify giving Avdija playing time over Kispert if these woeful shooting numbers can't improve. Not to mention that with Rui's return, Avdija minutes will get squeezed regardless.

Ultimately, this was the problem I had with Deni apologists last year who demanded that he be given a bigger role to create in the offense. There is no reality where a Deni Avdija that cannot shoot at a high percentage makes it in the NBA. If Avdija was making 40% of his 3's then we could justify waiting for his off the dribble skillset to improve. But at 31% he negatively impacts floor spacing. Offensively right now Avdija serves no purpose. He can't space the floor and his off the dribble game is non-existent.

"Bbbbut he's 20" Yes he is young, which why he'd be better off in the g-league. Sadly, because of how his career has gone, I don't even know if that is a realistic option due to the impact on his confidence. Regardless, getting the opportunity to learn as you go is a privilege in the NBA. Maybe we can conclude that Deni's so good defensively, that it is worth overlooking his offensive struggles, but at the very least we must admit that Deni's offense in general and his shooting in general is not anywhere close to being good enough.

[prime1time]

[quote="payitforward"]In truth... Zards about nails it.

Biggest factors:

1. He's only 20 years old.
2. He has a very advanced skillset.
3. There are important facets of his game that have not yet been activated in the NBA context.

Result? Deni Avdija has a good chance to become an outstanding NBA player. It'll be fun to watch him this year -- working with a completely different coaching staff.

I've watched nearly every clip of his game at Macabi Tel Aviv, and I question your #2 point. What is this advanced skillset that you're referring to? Even if I concede the point that Deni can playmake in an above average way for a big man, the reality is that his limited handles prevent him from doing so in the present. Which imo, directly leads me to question your third point. What are these important facets of his game that have not been activated?

I'm not surprised that you like Avdija, however, if we are being fair we should treat Avdija the same we treat Rui. What does your per possession analysis tell us about how Avdija compares to the average small forward? Surely he must be severely below average and therefore an underwhelming player. How does Avdija's 3-point makes compare to the average sf? At 31% from his career, surely it can't be good.

I understand the desire to be optimistic about Avdija but imo, Avdija underwhelming ball handling and inability to knock down shoots consistently, threaten to derail his career completely.