Political Roundtable Part XIX

[Pointgod]

Canada didn't experience the financial crises as bad as the US explicitly because their financial system is well regulated. It's not rocket science, when there's no safe guards or penalties for risky behaviour of course bank executives are going to do whatever puts the most money in their pocket in the short term. When banks bemoan that regulation makes it harder to do business they mean it makes it harder for executives to make more money. Protecting the economy and consumers should be the primary concern of the government.

[JWizmentality]

Bottom line. We need to get corporate money out of politics. It has corrupted the system and government no longer represents the people. Citizens United was one of the worst rulings in modern history. Might not be hyperbole to think it may lead to the downfall of the USA.

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[Wizardspride]

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MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski said President Donald Trump and his legal team panicked over the weekend after special counsel Robert Mueller previewed some of the questions he’ll ask in a face-to-face interview.

The special counsel reportedly sent the questions to Trump and his lawyers as they negotiate terms and conditions for Mueller’s interview, and the president called him out by name for the first time on Twitter — and his attorney John Dowd called for the Russia probe’s end.

[Zonkerbl]

She put the CFPB in place so it wouldn't be accountable to Congress. Now she is pissed that it isn't accountable to congress. Pocahontas is such a knucklehead.

You could make your point without resorting to slurs.

Google: elizabeth warren dna test - my point is she probably isn't even part Indian.

If she is then

Completely irrelevant. It's a family story she grew up with that she tells people. Nobody's business but hers - and the ugly lie that she claimed to be Native American to get into college is stupid and beside the point - she is obviously an extremely successful person with more integrity in her little finger than the entire White House staff. Trump's daddy loaned him $14 million to get started and no one is saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today. Well, people are saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today because he is a liar and a criminal, but not because of some leg up his rich KKK daddy gave him.

So to then run with that lie and use a racial slur in the process - not cool buddy.

[dckingsfan]

You could make your point without resorting to slurs.

Google: elizabeth warren dna test - my point is she probably isn't even part Indian.

If she is then

Completely irrelevant. It's a family story she grew up with that she tells people. Nobody's business but hers - and the ugly lie that she claimed to be Native American to get into college is stupid and beside the point - she is obviously an extremely successful person with more integrity in her little finger than the entire White House staff. Trump's daddy loaned him $14 million to get started and no one is saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today. Well, people are saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today because he is a liar and a criminal, but not because of some leg up his rich KKK daddy gave him.

So to then run with that lie and use a racial slur in the process - not cool buddy.

Fair enough. Especially if it is equating her with Trump. But it wasn't meant as a racial slur - just a dig at the lack of truth.

Still - I see Warren as part of the problem... just layering on more government that doesn't work as intended.

[dckingsfan]

mask is slipping a bit there dckingsfan

No question - still pointing out the really stupid policies...

[cammac]

Bottom line. We need to get corporate money out of politics. It has corrupted the system and government no longer represents the people. Citizens United was one of the worst rulings in modern history. Might not be hyperbole to think it may lead to the downfall of the USA.

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The average house district is slightly over 700 thousand people if you look at PA18 the Republicans spent over $15.7 for every man woman and child in that district. The Democrats spent about $7.14 for every man woman and child in the district the only difference is that most of that money came from individuals. When you look at actual voters Saccone spent $105.00 for each vote with over 90% coming from outside funding.

https://qz.com/1228590/pa18-election-republicans-spent-more-than-105-per-vote-for-rick-saccone-in-pennsylvania/

Since political races are Federal local matter why not limit the amount each candidate can spend to $2.00 per person in a house district or about $1.4 million. Any candidate who gets 20% of the vote will get 50% of money raised returned to them by the Federal government. Maximum contributions is $1,000 by any individual, corporation or union located in the district. Political contributions outside the district is not allowed.

This could be applied to Senate races and Presidential races as well. It certainly cuts down on the influence groups who want to subvert Democracy are now doing (both sides). No Congressman, Senator or President should be beholding to special interest groups.

[Wizardspride]

The Porton Down chemical weapon laboratory of the British military is only some 8 miles away from Salisbury where the Skripals were allegedly poisoned. The British government claims that Porton Down identified the agent allegedly used on the Skripals. The laboratory is surely also capable of producing such stuff, just like similar laboratories in other countries are able to do.

Now lets counter May's claims:

- Novichok agents are claimed to be up to 10 times as toxic as VX. One drop of VX can kill a person. If the Skripals were poisoned with such an highly effective agent how come they are still alive?
- The Soviet Union, not Russia, developed such agents. The main work was done in Uzbekistan.
- Russia is likely able to re-produce such agents but so are many, many other countries. Russia joined the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons and on their Destruction in 1997. It has since (unlike the U.S.) destroyed all left over stocks from the Soviet Union chemical weapon program. It does not produce chemical weapons.
- What is Russia's "record of state sponsored assassinations"? The British claim that "Russia" was somehow involved in the death of MI6 agent Litvinenko is highly dubious. I am not aware of any other cases.
- If Russia sees "some defectors" as legitimate targets why doesn't it immediately kill them? Skripal was living openly in the UK since 2010. Why would Russia kill him at all and why now?

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[Wizardspride]

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[TGW]

Google: elizabeth warren dna test - my point is she probably isn't even part Indian.

If she is then

Completely irrelevant. It's a family story she grew up with that she tells people. Nobody's business but hers - and the ugly lie that she claimed to be Native American to get into college is stupid and beside the point - she is obviously an extremely successful person with more integrity in her little finger than the entire White House staff. Trump's daddy loaned him $14 million to get started and no one is saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today. Well, people are saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today because he is a liar and a criminal, but not because of some leg up his rich KKK daddy gave him.

So to then run with that lie and use a racial slur in the process - not cool buddy.

Fair enough. Especially if it is equating her with Trump. But it wasn't meant as a racial slur - just a dig at the lack of truth.

Still - I see Warren as part of the problem... just layering on more government that doesn't work as intended.

Problem is....you're wrong. The CFPB works. Glass-Steagall worked. The regulatory arm of our government works if it's not sabotaged by the partisan hacks and corporate tools that have infiltrated the gov't.

I know you think that all government is evil and stupid, but at some point you have to admit that there are certain things that you cannot leave to the free market or competition....PERIOD. I mean seriously...the free market doesn't eliminate fraud, abuse, or waste...it enhances it. Government is [or supposed to be] the counterbalance.

[dckingsfan]

More on Warren - she wants to lower the interest rates charged to students with large student debt instead of just trashing this terrible policy, would that work?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiemcgrath/2016/04/14/the-argument-against-lowering-student-loan-interest-rates/#2d3d095ee88b

[dckingsfan]

Completely irrelevant. It's a family story she grew up with that she tells people. Nobody's business but hers - and the ugly lie that she claimed to be Native American to get into college is stupid and beside the point - she is obviously an extremely successful person with more integrity in her little finger than the entire White House staff. Trump's daddy loaned him $14 million to get started and no one is saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today. Well, people are saying he doesn't deserve to be where he is today because he is a liar and a criminal, but not because of some leg up his rich KKK daddy gave him.

So to then run with that lie and use a racial slur in the process - not cool buddy.

Fair enough. Especially if it is equating her with Trump. But it wasn't meant as a racial slur - just a dig at the lack of truth.

Still - I see Warren as part of the problem... just layering on more government that doesn't work as intended.

Problem is....you're wrong. The CFPB works. Glass-Steagall worked. The regulatory arm of our government works if it's not sabotaged by the partisan hacks and corporate tools that have infiltrated the gov't.

I know you think that all government is evil and stupid, but at some point you have to admit that there are certain things that you cannot leave to the free market or competition....PERIOD. I mean seriously...the free market doesn't eliminate fraud, abuse, or waste...it enhances it. Government is [or supposed to be] the counterbalance.

Of this we partly agree. Take the USDA and food inspection - we can't live without it - literally. Great government.

Glass-Steagall - same. It is a good piece of legislation.

The CFPB maybe... we have too small a data set to know. What is hilarious (in a bad way) is to make the CFPB unaccountable (intentionally) and then complain about it. And a good chunk of why we put the CFPB in place was student loans. Oh wait a new bureaucracy to fix a problem that the government created. Nice! You can double down on this with the housing bubble - a good chunk cause by the government policies (and then reinforced by bad behavior).

Instead of killing the bad programs (housing and student loans) we just add on pieces of legislation - that aren't bad in an of themselves - but they are bad because we don't kill the bad programs that caused them. And Elizabeth Warren is a poster child for that legislation.

[Zonkerbl]

Some things the government does extremely well that we tend to take for granted:
1. Defend us against terrorism, bad actions by foreign powers (like Russia), and invasion by Canadians
2. Enforce property rights, including ip
3. Provide and/or regulate basic public infrastructure - roads/ports/airports, electricity, water, internet
4. Provide unemployment insurance
5. Provide schools, police, fire departments

Some things that the government has to provide, or help provide, that they could do better:
1. Social security
2. Health care
3. Urban planning/zoning/business licensing
4. Prosecution of embezzlement/fraud/white collar crime in general. Based on what the Mueller investigation is uncovering, there's a whole class of rich people who apparently are just running amok.

[Wizardspride]

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[I_Like_Dirt]

Of this we partly agree. Take the USDA and food inspection - we can't live without it - literally. Great government.

Glass-Steagall - same. It is a good piece of legislation.

The CFPB maybe... we have too small a data set to know. What is hilarious (in a bad way) is to make the CFPB unaccountable (intentionally) and then complain about it. And a good chunk of why we put the CFPB in place was student loans. Oh wait a new bureaucracy to fix a problem that the government created. Nice! You can double down on this with the housing bubble - a good chunk cause by the government policies (and then reinforced by bad behavior).

Instead of killing the bad programs (housing and student loans) we just add on pieces of legislation - that aren't bad in an of themselves - but they are bad because we don't kill the bad programs that caused them. And Elizabeth Warren is a poster child for that legislation.

Personally, I think killing bad legislation is the easy part of the equation. You need a legitimate alternative. I'm not 100% sure on any particular institution or legislation, but I'm open to amending or outright eliminating anything, but leaving a vacuum in it's place is almost never a good idea.

I disagree with you on the order of blame, too, when you suggest the housing bubble was caused by government policies and then reinforced by bad behavior. That bubble was created by bad behavior and government policy failed to address it, and often even assisted said bad behavior, quite often by design of politicians and their supporters.

As for Warren, I'm not sure whether I would be for or against her. She's done some things that I'm not particularly fond of, but not totally unlike Bernie, at least I feel her intentions are closer to the mark overall. And yeah, you mentioned in an earlier post that intentions are meaningless if the outcomes are terrible, and you're right. The thing is, though, if you start with bad intentions, the odds of getting good outcomes aren't any better. There needs to be a certain alliance made between competent fiscal conservatives who are willing to spend, but spend smartly while hitting cost drivers, and politicians with legitimately good intentions; and I'm not even sure if Warren is that - she might be, but she might just be better than the rest but still not good enough. I feel Obama was that, despite what anyone may or may not feel about any of his policies. Right now, though, more of those who are effective are siding with those who are starting from largely or entirely self-interested positions, and the outcomes are predictable.

To be honest, one of the less understood effects of globalization is the decline of government. If large scale industry can drive down wages, they can also drive down government as the public willingness to pay higher wages to public servants declines as private sector wages decline. Lower government wages make it easier for the best to be poached by large scale industries as there are fewer opportunities elsewhere and kids are growing up in an environment that doesn't see government in the best of lights. Now, suddenly, government is weaker and is less able to defend against larger industry. There are very few governments in the world that can stand up to tobacco companies. Governments are only just realizing that facebook might have been a bigger thing than they thought. Tax evasion to play governments against each other is commonplace. The squeeze is on. And I definitely don't want to see big government for the sake of it. I do want to see a government strong enough to hold industry in check and I'm not convinced that's been true for some time now.

[dckingsfan]

@dirt - with regards to the housing bubble: Housing Tax Policy, Deregulation (as you cited) and Mandated Loans are among the most cited. It goes deeper than that of course. And the student loan program is more of the same.

We still come back to the "add an agency to protect us from our policies" kind of approach. And often we don't need to replace these policies - we just need to kill them.

Observers and analysts have attributed the reasons for the 2001–2006 housing bubble and its 2007–10 collapse in the United States to "everyone from home buyers to Wall Street, mortgage brokers to Alan Greenspan".Other factors that are named include "Mortgage underwriters, investment banks, rating agencies, and investors", "low mortgage interest rates, low short-term interest rates, relaxed standards for mortgage loans, and irrational exuberance" Politicians in both the Democratic and Republican political parties have been cited for "pushing to keep derivatives unregulated" and "with rare exceptions" giving Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac "unwavering support".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_United_States_housing_bubble

[dckingsfan]

@dirt - couldn't be more with you when it comes to big business - they are terrifically difficult to control.

[Wizardspride]

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[dckingsfan]

Facebook certainly is going to have a lot of liability on this one... One would think a very large class action is coming their way.