Political Roundtable Part XXVII

[dckingsfan]

well when i say k14 or k16, i mean making college/trade schools free - not compulsory attendance. tough to tell legal adults that they have to go to school if they don't want to.

idk what the effect on tuition prices will be - but that's the general idea is that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for education.

I'd go one step further and make it that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for the labor force - specifically the well-paying portions of the labor force. It acts as gatekeeping protection for the wealthy and causes a massive social wake as loads of people try to leap that wall, some make it and others die trying.

I'm not sure if I agree with it or not but there is an argument to be made that making portions of education that aren't tied to the labor market wide open in terms of costs. Education is so intrinsically tied to the labor market, though, that it's extremely tricky to separate things like that in reality.

I am with you on that one and I think that is one part of the platform that I agree with Bernie on... although I don't think he articulates it that well. Basically, start taking money out of the industrial military complex and put it into education.

But I think we also need to be progressive about education and start eliminating the current public school system (where it isn't working). There has been lots of data that throwing money at bad school districts doesn't make them better. But, that is going to be really hard - there are a lot of hands in the pie.

[pancakes3]

well when i say k14 or k16, i mean making college/trade schools free - not compulsory attendance. tough to tell legal adults that they have to go to school if they don't want to.

idk what the effect on tuition prices will be - but that's the general idea is that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for education.

I'd go one step further and make it that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for the labor force - specifically the well-paying portions of the labor force. It acts as gatekeeping protection for the wealthy and causes a massive social wake as loads of people try to leap that wall, some make it and others die trying.

I'm not sure if I agree with it or not but there is an argument to be made that making portions of education that aren't tied to the labor market wide open in terms of costs. Education is so intrinsically tied to the labor market, though, that it's extremely tricky to separate things like that in reality.

oh of course, i should have finished the thought. education is the middleman - your point is the real point. we can't have wealth be the barrier of entry for acquiring wealth. and also, as you alluded to, there will be "budget hawks" that say that it's immoral to have taxpayers pay for kids going off and getting russian lit degrees or whatever but... ::sigh:: yeah.

[dckingsfan]

well when i say k14 or k16, i mean making college/trade schools free - not compulsory attendance. tough to tell legal adults that they have to go to school if they don't want to.

idk what the effect on tuition prices will be - but that's the general idea is that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for education.

I'd go one step further and make it that we can't have money be a barrier of entry for the labor force - specifically the well-paying portions of the labor force. It acts as gatekeeping protection for the wealthy and causes a massive social wake as loads of people try to leap that wall, some make it and others die trying.

I'm not sure if I agree with it or not but there is an argument to be made that making portions of education that aren't tied to the labor market wide open in terms of costs. Education is so intrinsically tied to the labor market, though, that it's extremely tricky to separate things like that in reality.

oh of course, i should have finished the thought. education is the middleman - your point is the real point. we can't have wealth be the barrier of entry for acquiring wealth. and also, as you alluded to, there will be "budget hawks" that say that it's immoral to have taxpayers pay for kids going off and getting russian lit degrees or whatever but... ::sigh:: yeah.

Why does it come back to budget hawks? Why isn't it about a progressive take on education?

Overtime that have more and more unfunded education mandates on states moving more and more of our education resources into administration. How do we become unconstrained in that area?

We teach to tests not to goals. How do we become unconstrained in that area?

We have schools that continually fail and competitive public and private schools succeeding in those same locations - how do we close those failing schools. And where we have local schools succeeding, how do we expand their reach?

We have a grade level progression where we move kids forward regardless of if they are ready to move forward. And also constrain kids to stay at the same level even though we are they are ready to move forward. How do we change our system to that end?

Education is a local and state proposition - so they are constrained by their budgets (unlike the federal government). So, they are going to have to change but they will be constrained to some degree by the unfunded pension liabilities of the past. Where are the propositions that would federalize that debt?

This isn't about just about fiscal responsibility it is about moving our education system forward.

[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

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definitely for the working man

[Ruzious]

We're basically helping fund the stadiums for the Denver Broncos and the Las Vegas Raiders... seriously... not making this up.

[daSwami]

Impeachment will prove to be a bad political strategy for the Dems. If anything it will alienate "independent" voters (38% of voters!), the majority of whom identify as Independent because they despise partisan politics. This Senate "trial" will be a spectacle of partisan clusterf*ckery by design. Come November, Independents will either stay home or cast a protest vote against the party who started the process. Then we're all f*cked. On the bright side, the Trump tenure has been good for DC sports (3 titles), so we'll get 4 more years of that. Maybe even more if Ivanka gets "elected" in 2024.

[Kanyewest]

Impeachment will prove to be a bad political strategy for the Dems. If anything it will alienate "independent" voters (38% of voters!), the majority of whom identify as Independent because they despise partisan politics. This Senate "trial" will be a spectacle of partisan clusterf*ckery by design. Come November, Independents will either stay home or cast a protest vote against the party who started the process. Then we're all f*cked. On the bright side, the Trump tenure has been good for DC sports (3 titles), so we'll get 4 more years of that. Maybe even more if Ivanka gets "elected" in 2024.

It's a double edge sword, independents are going to see how partisan Republicans are as well.

[Kanyewest]

The democratic Primary according to the RealClearPolitics average is now Biden (28), Sanders (20), Warren (16), Buttigieg (9). Maybe that swings a bit in Iowa if either Mayor Pete or Bernie gets wins in the opening states

[Kanyewest]

The number of Americans that think Trump committed an impeachable offense is now up to 57%.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-americans-think-theres-enough-evidence-to-impeach-trump/

[dobrojim]

And a whopping 74% of all voters, including 64% of GOP voters, think calling witnesses in the Senate trial
would be a good thing. Polls like that buoy my confidence that from a purely political point of
view, Dems are likely to be helped in this process. Clearly one key factor that could end up being deciding
would be increased participation by younger people.

Tom Friedman spoke in very strong terms about the importance of impeachment and removal
on The Beat yesterday. And you have a coalition of nevertrump gop'ers led by Conway, Rick Wilson
and Steve Schmidt who apparently are going to have quite a bit of money to campaign against Trump.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/17/project-lincoln-can-patriotic-republicans-save-country/

You have, as was the case with their election endorsements, a near unanimity of major newspapers calling
for impeachment and removal. One could argue they were ignored before but one could also argue
for those who care, what they said in 2016 has been borne out in the events since then.

[queridiculo]

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definitely for the working man

Bread and circuses, making America Rome again.

[Ruzious]

Impeachment will prove to be a bad political strategy for the Dems. If anything it will alienate "independent" voters (38% of voters!), the majority of whom identify as Independent because they despise partisan politics. This Senate "trial" will be a spectacle of partisan clusterf*ckery by design. Come November, Independents will either stay home or cast a protest vote against the party who started the process. Then we're all f*cked. On the bright side, the Trump tenure has been good for DC sports (3 titles), so we'll get 4 more years of that. Maybe even more if Ivanka gets "elected" in 2024.

It would be cowardly beyond words to not impeach him - and would possibly kill the Dem party in the long run. The negatives of not impeaching him would be FARRRRRRRRRRRR worse than the negatives of impeaching him.

[closg00]

Impeachment will prove to be a bad political strategy for the Dems. If anything it will alienate "independent" voters (38% of voters!), the majority of whom identify as Independent because they despise partisan politics. This Senate "trial" will be a spectacle of partisan clusterf*ckery by design. Come November, Independents will either stay home or cast a protest vote against the party who started the process. Then we're all f*cked. On the bright side, the Trump tenure has been good for DC sports (3 titles), so we'll get 4 more years of that. Maybe even more if Ivanka gets "elected" in 2024.

Dems are paying a price for being weak and not impeaching on obstruction coming out of the Mueller investigation, then lurching forward on impeachment for the Ukraine matter. I believe it was always going to be an uphill climb for the Dems in 2020, only Biden is a viable threat hence the dirty trick operation to spring an October surprise on Biden at the right time, and they are moving forward with this strategy.

[queridiculo]

Some decisions tinted in red coming out the 5th circuit court of appeals lately.

The lone dissenting vote on the ACA business, a Democratic appointee.

The three judge panel ruling against precedent that a civil suit against a protest organizer may go forward Bush, Reagan and Trump appointees.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/appeals-court-rules-acas-individual-mandate-unconstitutional-lower-court-to-decide-whether-rest-of-law-can-stand-without-it/2019/12/18/3443fd3e-c03c-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-police-officer-sued-a-black-lives-matter-protester-for-violence-he-didnt-commit-whats-next-has-free-speech-advocates-worried/2019/12/13/f02cd082-1d09-11ea-b4c1-fd0d91b60d9e_story.html

A bit worrying when decisions like this are so clearly in line with partisan policies.

[queridiculo]

Impeachment will prove to be a bad political strategy for the Dems. If anything it will alienate "independent" voters (38% of voters!), the majority of whom identify as Independent because they despise partisan politics. This Senate "trial" will be a spectacle of partisan clusterf*ckery by design. Come November, Independents will either stay home or cast a protest vote against the party who started the process. Then we're all f*cked. On the bright side, the Trump tenure has been good for DC sports (3 titles), so we'll get 4 more years of that. Maybe even more if Ivanka gets "elected" in 2024.

Dems are paying a price for being weak and not impeaching on obstruction coming out of the Mueller investigation, then lurching forward on impeachment for the Ukraine matter. I believe it was always going to be an uphill climb for the Dems in 2020, only Biden is a viable threat hence the dirty trick operation to spring an October surprise on Biden at the right time, and they are moving forward with this strategy.

The Democrats are paying the price for actually making an honest effort to govern, something the Republicans have long given up on.

For the Republicans it's about power and they have long realized that they don't have to work together with the Democrats as long as they can pander to their radicalized base and stay close enough to the center to attract those single issue voters that are motivated by greed, and a general distaste for the idea of big government.

Without the Senate seats impeachment was always going to be a losing strategy.

[Ruzious]

Clincally speaking, it'll be fascinating to see how Trump reacts. This impeachment might be the first time he's been punished for something - ever (not counting his Trump Foundation debacle). After they have the vote, we may see his biggest implosion yet.

[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

TGW’s favourite Republican voting “present” on impeachment. At least she can drop the pretence of actually being part of the Democratic Party now. Don’t expect any response from him.

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[Pointgod]

Up next Republicans comparing the piece of trash in the Whitehouse to Jesus. I’m sure that our resident Evangelical daoneandonly will have a more forceful response to this. Right? Right?

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