Official Countdown Grunfeld Era-2nd SuperStar?

[AlohaWiz]

I don't know what other teams do, but I was under the impression that the reason you have your own doctors is so that you can get a medical opinion you can trust. Do the Suns get second opinions when they sign players?

I completely agree that the reason a team has its own doctors is to get a medical opinion that it can trust. But when that medical opinion turns out to be incorrect time and time again, it's the responsibility of the GM to get another opinion.

And to answer your question, I don't know if the Suns get second opinions, but by all accounts, their medical staff is excellent, so if it ain't broke....

Either way, the list of players who haven't been healthy in Washington is long and if it isn't a problem with the in house medical staff then it's certainly an example of a cursed franchise rather than a systemic failure to do diligence.

I get the impression that, for the most part, you see both sides of the issues/debates discussed here on this board. I believe that you put careful thought into your opinions & I enjoy your insights. I mean that. So, please don't take this as me attacking or flaming you when I say this, but I truly don't understand why you seem to deflect all responsibility away from EG.

I agree that there are many reasons why this franchise is suffering. Whether it's a bad medical staff, underperforming players, the wrong coaching staff, a string of bad luck, or a lack of quality ketchup at the Phone Booth--there is no one reason why the team is in a down cycle.

But, isn't it possible that EG is one of the reasons, too?

[JonathanJoseph]

Either way, the list of players who haven't been healthy in Washington is long and if it isn't a problem with the in house medical staff then it's certainly an example of a cursed franchise rather than a systemic failure to do diligence.

I get the impression that, for the most part, you see both sides of the issues/debates discussed here on this board. I believe that you put careful thought into your opinions & I enjoy your insights. I mean that. So, please don't take this as me attacking or flaming you when I say this, but I truly don't understand why you seem to deflect all responsibility away from EG.

I agree that there are many reasons why this franchise is suffering. Whether it's a bad medical staff, underperforming players, the wrong coaching staff, a string of bad luck, or a lack of quality ketchup at the Phone Booth--there is no one reason why the team is in a down cycle.

But, isn't it possible that EG is one of the reasons, too?

I appreciate your comments and if one were to look for the easiest answer, it would be EG. Could he be the problem? Sure, but I am fairly certain that he is not.

I think there is a chasm between something "not working" and "not being a good idea" or being "poorly executed" as there is in all forms of business. I believe that for the most part, Grunfeld's moves have been good ideas and well executed, but due to injuries and what appears to be a curse on this franchise, things haven't worked.

I remember before last season when Doc Rivers thought the Wizards had the best offseason and were going to be a contender. I agreed with him, but obviously it didn't turn out that way. Why it turned out the way it did I don't know exactly but I don't think Grunfeld is the primary reason. He actually put a good, if not flawed, roster together.

I think that the medical staff, coaching and a previous owner desperate to win are all bigger tangible contributors to the Wizards recent failures than the GM.

[LyricalRico]

I think there is a chasm between something "not working" and "not being a good idea" or being "poorly executed" as there is in all forms of business. I believe that for the most part, Grunfeld's moves have been good ideas and well executed, but due to injuries and what appears to be a curse on this franchise, things haven't worked.

I think that the medical staff, coaching and a previous owner desperate to win are all bigger tangible contributors to the Wizards recent failures than the GM.

[closg00]

I think there is a chasm between something "not working" and "not being a good idea" or being "poorly executed" as there is in all forms of business. I believe that for the most part, Grunfeld's moves have been good ideas and well executed, but due to injuries and what appears to be a curse on this franchise, things haven't worked.

I think that the medical staff, coaching and a previous owner desperate to win are all bigger tangible contributors to the Wizards recent failures than the GM.

To Rico and JoJo, their Ernie can do no wrong.

[JonathanJoseph]

Further proof that the problem is probably not EG:

This season Deshawn Stevenson has a PER of 15.6, a TS% of .694 and the Mavericks are 16-3 since making him a starter.

12 months ago, DS was a waste of a roster spot and EG had to give away Haywood just to get someone to take DS off the books. 95% of posters would have said that EG resigning him to that contract was a terrible move and an indictment of EG's poor job.

So is it EG's fault that DS looks like a whole new player? Was the back injury (which was clearly the biggest problem with DS) EG's fault?

DS's back injury, Caron's mental breakdown ("I'm an all-star!"), Arenas' suspension, significant injury time (10+ games) missed in just the last 2 seasons by Mike Miller, Josh Howard, Randy Foye, Brendan Haywood, Caron Butler, Andray Blatche, Jamison, DS and of course Arenas (and John Wall already getting to 10 games missed this year). Isn't that almost every major contributor to have been on the roster? I don't think any other NBA franchise has experienced anything close to approaching this level of injuries.

I don't know if it's even possible to have a truly objective and informed opinion of EG's job performance EITHER WAY given all of these variables that have been out of his control.

[no D in Hibachi]

The last two seasons, in addition to the current season, is on pace to become the worst three year period in franchise history. Many people widely consider the Wizards the second worst franchise in NBA history and it appears the franchise is at it's all time lowest point. Take a look at the most futile three year periods in the Washington Wizards/Bullets 50 seasons:

08/09-10/11
Wins: 51
Losses: 136
Winning %: 26.99%

98/99-00/01
Wins: 66
Losses: 148
Winning %: 31.51%

92/93-94/95
Wins: 67
Losses 179
Winning %: 27.24%

Now you can argue all you want about having his hands tied or he hasn't had a fair shake or injuries or whatever the simple fact is the three year stretch the Wiz are on is WORST IN TEAM HISTORY. It's impossible to refute that fact. EG has literally driven this ship into depths unknown. I'm tired of people arguing about the micro elements of EG's regime, since the summer of 2007 pretty much all his moves have been bad with minimal exception. From the macro point of view he has taken a joke of a franchise and made it worse.

The grace period is usually towards the beginnig of the campaign where you work to get your guys and build your system. Seven years is absolutely too long when there are no results and not just no results but the team is looking worse now that at any point during his Washington career. What did he say when he traded Jamison and Butler? The team looked stale, well the whole front office looks stale so time for big Ted to flush 'em.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Amare and others have come back from just fine, so sorry but that hindsight claim holds no validity.

CCJ hasn't been right about everything, but it's absolutely true that he was against resigning Arenas to a large contract. He repeatedly warned us in his usual, persistent, annoying manner.

Nate is sounding like one of my ex's.

[hands11]

Either way, the list of players who haven't been healthy in Washington is long and if it isn't a problem with the in house medical staff then it's certainly an example of a cursed franchise rather than a systemic failure to do diligence.

I get the impression that, for the most part, you see both sides of the issues/debates discussed here on this board. I believe that you put careful thought into your opinions & I enjoy your insights. I mean that. So, please don't take this as me attacking or flaming you when I say this, but I truly don't understand why you seem to deflect all responsibility away from EG.

I agree that there are many reasons why this franchise is suffering. Whether it's a bad medical staff, underperforming players, the wrong coaching staff, a string of bad luck, or a lack of quality ketchup at the Phone Booth--there is no one reason why the team is in a down cycle.

But, isn't it possible that EG is one of the reasons, too?

I appreciate your comments and if one were to look for the easiest answer, it would be EG. Could he be the problem? Sure, but I am fairly certain that he is not.

I think there is a chasm between something "not working" and "not being a good idea" or being "poorly executed" as there is in all forms of business. I believe that for the most part, Grunfeld's moves have been good ideas and well executed, but due to injuries and what appears to be a curse on this franchise, things haven't worked.

I remember before last season when Doc Rivers thought the Wizards had the best offseason and were going to be a contender. I agreed with him, but obviously it didn't turn out that way. Why it turned out the way it did I don't know exactly but I don't think Grunfeld is the primary reason. He actually put a good, if not flawed, roster together.

I think that the medical staff, coaching and a previous owner desperate to win are all bigger tangible contributors to the Wizards recent failures than the GM.

Keep up the good fight. Not like this hasn't all been said before. Those that want to put it all on EG will and that will only change once the team is actually winning. Actually evaluating moves in context and who the owner was and freak injuries will never provide the information that will change their minds.

My primary position is that the owner and GM are a team. And unless the team is winning, the GM will always look like trash. If they are winning, the coach and players get the attention mostly. Not that some GMs don't get credit but the point is, it's really hard to be a well thought of GM unless you have a good owner and a good plan and your winning. Look at Synder for example. His front offices has mostly sucked. Charlie C was a good GM but Synder canned him. After that the front office was crap except when Marty took over full control and told him to STFU. Even Gibbs II got sucked into Synders bad plan. The owner doesn't have to do a ton to topple the Apple chart. Just sign the wrong player here, set the wrong ton there or allow picks to be traded away. Next thing you know, you are a dead end and have a long rebuild ahead of you after years of being average or sucking.

Sound familiar ?

[hands11]

Further proof that the problem is probably not EG:

This season Deshawn Stevenson has a PER of 15.6, a TS% of .694 and the Mavericks are 16-3 since making him a starter.

12 months ago, DS was a waste of a roster spot and EG had to give away Haywood just to get someone to take DS off the books. 95% of posters would have said that EG resigning him to that contract was a terrible move and an indictment of EG's poor job.

So is it EG's fault that DS looks like a whole new player? Was the back injury (which was clearly the biggest problem with DS) EG's fault?

DS's back injury, Caron's mental breakdown ("I'm an all-star!"), Arenas' suspension, significant injury time (10+ games) missed in just the last 2 seasons by Mike Miller, Josh Howard, Randy Foye, Brendan Haywood, Caron Butler, Andray Blatche, Jamison, DS and of course Arenas (and John Wall already getting to 10 games missed this year). Isn't that almost every major contributor to have been on the roster? I don't think any other NBA franchise has experienced anything close to approaching this level of injuries.

I don't know if it's even possible to have a truly objective and informed opinion of EG's job performance EITHER WAY given all of these variables that have been out of his control.

Certainly can't blame him for years of EFJ coaching the wrong line up and wrong players. That was squarely on Abe. Oh the EJ days. Wonder what he is up to ?

[JonathanJoseph]

The last two seasons, in addition to the current season, is on pace to become the worst three year period in franchise history. Many people widely consider the Wizards the second worst franchise in NBA history and it appears the franchise is at it's all time lowest point. Take a look at the most futile three year periods in the Washington Wizards/Bullets 50 seasons:

08/09-10/11
Wins: 51
Losses: 136
Winning %: 26.99%

98/99-00/01
Wins: 66
Losses: 148
Winning %: 31.51%

92/93-94/95
Wins: 67
Losses 179
Winning %: 27.24%

Now you can argue all you want about having his hands tied or he hasn't had a fair shake or injuries or whatever the simple fact is the three year stretch the Wiz are on is WORST IN TEAM HISTORY. It's impossible to refute that fact. EG has literally driven this ship into depths unknown. I'm tired of people arguing about the micro elements of EG's regime, since the summer of 2007 pretty much all his moves have been bad with minimal exception. From the macro point of view he has taken a joke of a franchise and made it worse.

The grace period is usually towards the beginnig of the campaign where you work to get your guys and build your system. Seven years is absolutely too long when there are no results and not just no results but the team is looking worse now that at any point during his Washington career. What did he say when he traded Jamison and Butler? The team looked stale, well the whole front office looks stale so time for big Ted to flush 'em.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the Wizards haven't been very bad recently. I think that when you look at reasons why the Wizards haven't been successful you find that the primary problem isn't that the GM didn't supply talented players.

Unreasonable injuries, poor coaching, a bizarre suspension and inexplicable chemistry issues are all better explanations than lack of talent.

Leonsis isn't a dummy. EG's job is to assemble talent with both a short and long term perspective on talent and salary cap implications and I'd say he's done a good to very good job of that not only this season but last season as well given his directives (win a title in 09, rebuild in 10). Leonsis wouldn't have kept EG if he wasn't doing a good job.

Like I said, plenty of people in the NBA thought Grunfeld had a great offseason before last year and most polls said that the Wizards were the second most improved this offseason (behind the Heat). And Flip Saunders is a proven winner with serious credentials as an NBA coach. Things haven't worked, but again, pinpointing a reason is bizarrely challenging.

The comparison to keeping McPhee with the Caps is silly at best. These are multi-hundred-million dollar franchises. He isn't keeping underperforming key executives out of principal and there's no legitimate pattern based on a sample set of 2. Leonsis has fired plenty of high level executives over his career and he would have fired Grunfeld in 8 seconds if he thought he were at fault.

[P'Oed]

I'm hoping the ONLY reason this trade was made was to officially remove the "Grunfeld Stamp" from this team. All of the talent you acquired was traded for virtually nothing. What a jackass. Please just get rid of this guy.

[AceDegenerate]

[Wizards2Lottery]

You have got to be **** kidding me Grunfeld.

[closg00]

Just got back from taking the kids to the movies. Say it ain't so, it's a straight Gilbert for Lewis swap? We had one of the worst contracts in the NBA and we traded it for one that is worse????? Anything else tied to this a 2nd round pick or something?

[AceDegenerate]

Just got back from taking the kids to the movies. Say it ain't so, it's a straight Gilbert for Lewis swap? We had one of the worst contracts in the NBA and we traded it for one that is worse????? Anything else tied to this a 2nd round pick or something?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... alks121810

The Magic also are nearing completion on a deal to send forward Rashard Lewis(notes) to the Wizards for Arenas, sources said. No other players or picks will be in that trade.

[WizarDynasty]

squezing orton, clark, and lewis would be optimal in this deal. I would probably give the ok. only big that i would give up is armstrong and yi.

well since he didn't get clark and lewis for arenas...he should be canned.

[doclinkin]

I'm late to the party but you can sign me up for this here O-fficial countdown. This is dogshxt. I defended Grunfeld for years but he's clearly checked out on DC and doesn't care any more. Just going thru the motions. Gawdawful trade.

[closg00]

I'm late to the party but you can sign me up for this here O-fficial countdown. This is dogshxt. I defended Grunfeld for years but he's clearly checked out on DC and doesn't care any more. Just going thru the motions. Gawdawful trade.

I'm sure that Ted will re-evaluate everything during the off-season. If we end-up playing before a few thousand people a night with the team completely lost, Flip & Ernie could both be gone.

[fishercob]

Ernie with a parting shot to Gilbert in the press release:

“When we re-signed Gilbert prior to the 2008-09 season, we envisioned a level of team success that we unfortunately were not able to achieve due to injuries and other factors beyond our control,” said Grunfeld. “We appreciate the contributions that he made to this franchise and this city and wish him the best of luck.”

No class. No responsibility for past failures.

F U C K YOU ERNIE!!!!

[mhd]

Also, Ernie on Lewis: "This was a way to possibly free up cap room for us down the road and also get some front-court help," Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld said in a telephone interview. "Rashard can shoot, rebound, play some defense and it never hurts when you have a player like John Wall to have another perimeter shooter".


EG is a fraud. I'd rather have Wes back as GM. At least Wes was oldschool and wouldn't tell open lies. Don't tell me that Lewis can rebound and defend. We've HAD HIM IN THE DIVISION FOR FIVE YEARS! WE KNOW HIS GAME!!!