ImageImageImageImageImage

Political Roundtable - Part VI

Moderators: nate33, montestewart, LyricalRico

popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#81 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 3:50 am

Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:At $5 million per life, you're talking about saving $3-$28 billion a year.

With these numbers, $1000 per gun seems about right.


Zonk - I've noticed you've mentioned $1,000 tax on gun purchases several times. Obviously you think, as I do, that when you tax something you get less of it? Assuming that is your intent, shouldn't we apply that $1,000 tax to other things that we want less of, and that in our opinion, are harmful to society? What would those other things be in your opinion?


I advocate for taxes on things where your consumption of it hurts me. When you smoke cigarettes and produce second hand smoke, it hurts me. We tax cigarettes. When you drink alcohol and murder my children driving home, it hurts me. We tax alcohol. When your stolen gun is used to murder my children, it hurts me. We should absolutely tax guns.

Can't believe civilized people defend guns. They are for MURDERING PEOPLE. They are used to MURDER CHILDREN.

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME ON ALL YOU PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS!


Holy Cow Zonk - if it weren't for our guns, Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, or any number of other evil empires would rule the world. Guns and their more powerful derivatives, and the heroes that operate them, are the only thing that protect us and other free people from tyranny and evil. Some years ago most high schools had rifle teams to teach our youngsters the importance of handling and shooting weapons effectively. Are you familiar with the story of Sgt. York?

SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Your ignorance is of course forgivable but the certainty with which you proclaim a position, indefensible in the annals of history, require serious reflection on your part. You owe your freedom and liberty to brave men with guns and the courage to use them for righteous purpose.
Zonkerbl
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 9,144
And1: 4,797
Joined: Mar 24, 2010
       

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#82 » by Zonkerbl » Thu May 9, 2013 1:02 pm

What part of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" don't you understand?
I've been taught all my life to value service to the weak and powerless.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#83 » by Induveca » Thu May 9, 2013 1:13 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:At $5 million per life, you're talking about saving $3-$28 billion a year.

With these numbers, $1000 per gun seems about right.


Zonk - I've noticed you've mentioned $1,000 tax on gun purchases several times. Obviously you think, as I do, that when you tax something you get less of it? Assuming that is your intent, shouldn't we apply that $1,000 tax to other things that we want less of, and that in our opinion, are harmful to society? What would those other things be in your opinion?


I advocate for taxes on things where your consumption of it hurts me. When you smoke cigarettes and produce second hand smoke, it hurts me. We tax cigarettes. When you drink alcohol and murder my children driving home, it hurts me. We tax alcohol. When your stolen gun is used to murder my children, it hurts me. We should absolutely tax guns.

Can't believe civilized people defend guns. They are for MURDERING PEOPLE. They are used to MURDER CHILDREN.

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME ON ALL YOU PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS!


Impressive virtual shouting sir, got me a good laugh early in the morning. I sincerely hope you were joking.

Humans have used projectile weapons for thousands of years. It's in our nature. I don't own a gun in the US, but millions of guns are produced annually by US companies, supported 100% by purchase orders from US/US ally militaries, and backed by a constitutional amendment. Guns aren't going anywhere. Trillions in worldwide sales by US gun manufacturers guarantee that, the lobby is just too strong....and while citizen ownership should have nothing to do with military sales, the NRA and manufacturers are joined at the hip.

It amazes me how federal politicians are completely distracting the electorate with a very small, yet flashy problem impacting a tiny percentage of the population. Purely because it riles up the emotions.

20 trillion in debt? Nah let's all just ignore that and get emotional about guns. They kill people! Oh no! Starvation, desperation and over-taxation? Nah, it's all about those needless annual 5500 gun inflicted suicides in a population of 312 million.....

It is fun to argue about it for some reason though.
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 70,769
And1: 23,284
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#84 » by nate33 » Thu May 9, 2013 1:19 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:What part of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" don't you understand?

It's murderers that don't understand that commandment. Not gun owners.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#85 » by Nivek » Thu May 9, 2013 2:34 pm

popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
popper wrote:
Zonk - I've noticed you've mentioned $1,000 tax on gun purchases several times. Obviously you think, as I do, that when you tax something you get less of it? Assuming that is your intent, shouldn't we apply that $1,000 tax to other things that we want less of, and that in our opinion, are harmful to society? What would those other things be in your opinion?


I advocate for taxes on things where your consumption of it hurts me. When you smoke cigarettes and produce second hand smoke, it hurts me. We tax cigarettes. When you drink alcohol and murder my children driving home, it hurts me. We tax alcohol. When your stolen gun is used to murder my children, it hurts me. We should absolutely tax guns.

Can't believe civilized people defend guns. They are for MURDERING PEOPLE. They are used to MURDER CHILDREN.

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME ON ALL YOU PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS!


Holy Cow Zonk - if it weren't for our guns, Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, or any number of other evil empires would rule the world. Guns and their more powerful derivatives, and the heroes that operate them, are the only thing that protect us and other free people from tyranny and evil. Some years ago most high schools had rifle teams to teach our youngsters the importance of handling and shooting weapons effectively. Are you familiar with the story of Sgt. York?

SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Your ignorance is of course forgivable but the certainty with which you proclaim a position, indefensible in the annals of history, require serious reflection on your part. You owe your freedom and liberty to brave men with guns and the courage to use them for righteous purpose.


I guess you could say that guns stopped Hitler and Stalin, but they were guns being used by men well-trained in how to use them. And they weren't killing indiscriminately, they were killing soldiers who were attempting to subjugate entire nations. For the most part, anyway.

Of course, if Hitler and the Nazis didn't have guns, WWII would have been basically a regional conflict confined to Europe. I guess Adolf coulda gone Alexander the Great style and turned his sights on Europe.

I think you may have just made the case for disarming everyone, period.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#86 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 3:25 pm

Nivek wrote:
popper wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:
I advocate for taxes on things where your consumption of it hurts me. When you smoke cigarettes and produce second hand smoke, it hurts me. We tax cigarettes. When you drink alcohol and murder my children driving home, it hurts me. We tax alcohol. When your stolen gun is used to murder my children, it hurts me. We should absolutely tax guns.

Can't believe civilized people defend guns. They are for MURDERING PEOPLE. They are used to MURDER CHILDREN.

SHAME ON YOU! SHAME ON ALL YOU PSYCHOTIC BASTARDS!


Holy Cow Zonk - if it weren't for our guns, Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, or any number of other evil empires would rule the world. Guns and their more powerful derivatives, and the heroes that operate them, are the only thing that protect us and other free people from tyranny and evil. Some years ago most high schools had rifle teams to teach our youngsters the importance of handling and shooting weapons effectively. Are you familiar with the story of Sgt. York?

SHAME ON YOU FOR NOT UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.

Your ignorance is of course forgivable but the certainty with which you proclaim a position, indefensible in the annals of history, require serious reflection on your part. You owe your freedom and liberty to brave men with guns and the courage to use them for righteous purpose.


I guess you could say that guns stopped Hitler and Stalin, but they were guns being used by men well-trained in how to use them. And they weren't killing indiscriminately, they were killing soldiers who were attempting to subjugate entire nations. For the most part, anyway.

Of course, if Hitler and the Nazis didn't have guns, WWII would have been basically a regional conflict confined to Europe. I guess Adolf coulda gone Alexander the Great style and turned his sights on Europe.

I think you may have just made the case for disarming everyone, period.


The case for disarming everyone is so unrealistic I cannot even contemplate it. We can't even disarm recidivist criminals in Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit where possession of firearms is, for all intents and purposes, strictly forbidden except for a select few. I don't know if you read about the Egyptian gunsmith operating out of his basement in Cairo last weekend. The security situation is so bad that he's making and selling guns on the black market to people that simply want to protect themselves against criminal thugs.

For the foreseeable future, guns will remain legal in most parts of the country. Criminal firearm use is largely concentrated in urban areas and that is where we should aim a solution (assuming the goal is to take as many violent criminals off the street as possible instead of restricting the rights of law abiding citizens).

One possible solution is taking place in NYC where "stop and frisk" has been very effective in lowering the incidents of gun related violence. Based on that successful model, maybe we should do the same in all major urban areas with high rates of violent gun crime.
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 17,102
And1: 4,211
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#87 » by dobrojim » Thu May 9, 2013 5:55 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
daSwami wrote:I know I'm out on the radical fringe on this, but I think that the 2nd amendment should be repealed.


I'm out there on that fringe with you also. Ban or not, certainly don't make it an inherent, god-given, natural right of man.


Put me down for repeal of 2nd amendment, as currently interpreted anyway.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 17,102
And1: 4,211
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#88 » by dobrojim » Thu May 9, 2013 6:18 pm

popper wrote:In case anyone is interested here is a link to the Benghazi timeline. It is fascinating to say the least. If you will invest a few minutes of your time I'm confident you will gain a whole new perspective on the importance that Hillary and President Obama place upon protecting our government representatives abroad.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... ormat.html


You need to quit getting your news from questionable sources.

I can't for the life of me figure out what the scandal is here.
BHO is either incredibly incompetent and indifferent to the interests
of embassy (actually not an embassy in Benghazi) security or he's incredibly
clever and evil and nefarious in deliberately allowing this to happen (motive?)
and simultaneously being able to cover up any responsibility. Neither
scenario is even slightly plausible.

as usual Jon Stewart nails it

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-8-2013/the-big-benghazi-theory
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#89 » by Induveca » Thu May 9, 2013 6:40 pm

The gun argument is easy to break down:

Should the second amendment be modified/repealed? Without a doubt.

Will it? For next 10-15 years, no way. A budget can't even be passed, and the gun issue should not even be in the top 10 of senate priorities right now. Add in weapon lobbyists who hold major sway over executive branch/senate.....just won't happen. While the NRA has republicans, companies similar to Raytheon have both parties in their pockets due to national defense.

Excellent way to act like they are doing real work however. Both sides realize no significant gun legislation is passing in the next decade.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#90 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 7:07 pm

dobrojim wrote:
popper wrote:In case anyone is interested here is a link to the Benghazi timeline. It is fascinating to say the least. If you will invest a few minutes of your time I'm confident you will gain a whole new perspective on the importance that Hillary and President Obama place upon protecting our government representatives abroad.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/201 ... ormat.html


You need to quit getting your news from questionable sources.

I can't for the life of me figure out what the scandal is here.
BHO is either incredibly incompetent and indifferent to the interests
of embassy (actually not an embassy in Benghazi) security or he's incredibly
clever and evil and nefarious in deliberately allowing this to happen (motive?)
and simultaneously being able to cover up any responsibility. Neither
scenario is even slightly plausible.

as usual Jon Stewart nails it

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-may-8-2013/the-big-benghazi-theory


I do think both BO and Hillary are incompetent. It doesn't surprise me in the least as neither one of them had any relevant experience that would have prepared them for the jobs they held/hold. Don't despair though as I also thought George Bush was incompetent as well. Although dishonest, I thought Clinton was highly competent.

Hillary's big achievement was that she logged millions of air miles while Secretary. I can think of no other achievement on the international scene aside from learning a few new dance steps. She couldn't even get the Russian reset button translated properly before embarrassing herself. Perhaps Obama gave her some tips on international gifting because he also embarrassed himself and the office with his ridiculous and useless gifts (insults) to our foreign allies.

Obama is wreaking havoc on the economic prospects of the young and lower income Americans. Most will likely never recover from the damage he's done. I hope I'm wrong.

Edit - how do progressive view Obama in relation to Rice's outright lies regarding the cause of the Benghazi attack? It was obvious to everyone I know that it was cooked up to fit the narrative he wanted to put forth before the election.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#91 » by Nivek » Thu May 9, 2013 7:46 pm

That American Thinker timeline is misleading right from the start. For example, third entry down says there was a cable sent from State "signed by Clinton." Wow, pretty damning. Except...apparently the way the State Department cable system works, EVERYTHING cabled from DC to a foreign outpost is "signed" by the Secretary. EVERYTHING cabled from an outpost back to DC is "signed" by the ambassador or the top-ranking official.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#92 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 8:05 pm

Nivek wrote:That American Thinker timeline is misleading right from the start. For example, third entry down says there was a cable sent from State "signed by Clinton." Wow, pretty damning. Except...apparently the way the State Department cable system works, EVERYTHING cabled from DC to a foreign outpost is "signed" by the Secretary. EVERYTHING cabled from an outpost back to DC is "signed" by the ambassador or the top-ranking official.


That is true to an extent Nivek. What competent manager though would allow communication to go out with their name attached without knowledge of its content. In thirty years of business experience, mostly at the executive level, none that I know of. It's Business 101 for gosh sakes. She either knows and approves of the content and transmission with her name attached or she is incompetent.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#93 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 8:20 pm

I'm beginning to think that some of the progressives on this site are related to BO and/or Hillary. It appears you're so invested in them that you can't admit the obvious. Even D congressmen admitted this weekend that Susan Rice mislead the country using cooked up talking points that bore no resemblance to the truth. On a subject with such importance, right before the election, do you really think Obama just sat by and let someone else invent the storyline that Rice would repeat on 5 different Sunday news shows. If so, you're delusional. Of course Obama asked Rice to go out and lie her as* off in order for him to deflect blame and preserve his chance at reelection.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#94 » by Induveca » Thu May 9, 2013 9:00 pm

popper wrote:I'm beginning to think that some of the progressives on this site are related to BO and/or Hillary. It appears you're so invested in them that you can't admit the obvious. Even D congressmen admitted this weekend that Susan Rice mislead the country using cooked up talking points that bore no resemblance to the truth. On a subject with such importance, right before the election, do you really think Obama just sat by and let someone else invent the storyline that Rice would repeat on 5 different Sunday news shows. If so, you're delusional. Of course Obama asked Rice to go out and lie her as* off in order for him to deflect blame and preserve his chance at reelection.


Politicians (all parties) live in a world of half truths, and by default are themselves dishonest out of paranoia, and constant special-interest money floating about. Not sure why some tare so invested in refusing to admit wrongs by their party. End of the day you're merely choosing the best of the worst.

A politician incapable of spinning bad situations for which they should accept blame is a poor politician. Best way to do that? Be generally vague in everything you do and say. Do just enough to keep your job and allow flexibility to keep special interests and foreign connections happy. Having lived in many countries, it's the same everywhere.

I've been exposed to some pretty damning corruption experiences with a few senior democratic and republican officials in the US as well. It's honestly no different than the Dominican Republic, Peru or Czech Republic etc.

The price of entry is just far higher, and the details more complex. If any of you think large numbers of US officials in top positions don't have numbered accounts in Singapore/Switzerland opened by foreign parties for "favors" you're fooling yourselves.

I can only imagine the offers Hilary Clinton received over the past two years on her journeys. State department types take huge bribes at lower levels overseas (beach apartments to "overturn" a visa revocation is my fav) , her offers must have been absolutely mind boggling with her upcoming presidential run.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#95 » by Nivek » Thu May 9, 2013 9:10 pm

popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:That American Thinker timeline is misleading right from the start. For example, third entry down says there was a cable sent from State "signed by Clinton." Wow, pretty damning. Except...apparently the way the State Department cable system works, EVERYTHING cabled from DC to a foreign outpost is "signed" by the Secretary. EVERYTHING cabled from an outpost back to DC is "signed" by the ambassador or the top-ranking official.


That is true to an extent Nivek. What competent manager though would allow communication to go out with their name attached without knowledge of its content. In thirty years of business experience, mostly at the executive level, none that I know of. It's Business 101 for gosh sakes. She either knows and approves of the content and transmission with her name attached or she is incompetent.


Umm, this "signature" thing has been the practice at State for a long time. Washington Post had a good piece about this when the GOP started trying to make something of these "signed" cables. They include links to a variety of cables "signed" by Condoleeza Rice when she was Secretary -- including lofty subjects like a travel alert, and a shortage of hotel rooms in Monrovia.

They also have links to cables "signed" by Hillary Clinton on stuff like managing the e-mail system (included tips like not using all capital letters because it's perceived as shouting) and new phone numbers in Brazzaville.

I understand and respect your business experience, but...we're not talking about business. We're talking government. It's antiquated. It's silly. But, it is how State Department operates.

Now, the GOP is welcome to continue pretending that the "signed" cables mean that Clinton knew or should have known what was in them. But, that's exactly what they'd be doing -- pretending.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#96 » by Nivek » Thu May 9, 2013 9:14 pm

popper wrote:I'm beginning to think that some of the progressives on this site are related to BO and/or Hillary. It appears you're so invested in them that you can't admit the obvious. Even D congressmen admitted this weekend that Susan Rice mislead the country using cooked up talking points that bore no resemblance to the truth. On a subject with such importance, right before the election, do you really think Obama just sat by and let someone else invent the storyline that Rice would repeat on 5 different Sunday news shows. If so, you're delusional. Of course Obama asked Rice to go out and lie her as* off in order for him to deflect blame and preserve his chance at reelection.


You sound a lot like the Democrats when Bush was in office. Who sounded a lot like the Republicans when Clinton was in office.

Based on the reading I've done on this subject, I think Susan Rice "lied" about the attack in Benghazi in much the same way Colin Powell and the Bush administration "lied" about WMDs in Iraq. Which is to say, they repeated things that were given to them by CIA/intel, which turned out to be either incorrect, inaccurate or incomplete.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
User avatar
Induveca
Head Coach
Posts: 7,379
And1: 724
Joined: Dec 02, 2004
   

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#97 » by Induveca » Thu May 9, 2013 9:20 pm

Nivek wrote:
popper wrote:I'm beginning to think that some of the progressives on this site are related to BO and/or Hillary. It appears you're so invested in them that you can't admit the obvious. Even D congressmen admitted this weekend that Susan Rice mislead the country using cooked up talking points that bore no resemblance to the truth. On a subject with such importance, right before the election, do you really think Obama just sat by and let someone else invent the storyline that Rice would repeat on 5 different Sunday news shows. If so, you're delusional. Of course Obama asked Rice to go out and lie her as* off in order for him to deflect blame and preserve his chance at reelection.


You sound a lot like the Democrats when Bush was in office. Who sounded a lot like the Republicans when Clinton was in office.

Based on the reading I've done on this subject, I think Susan Rice "lied" about the attack in Benghazi in much the same way Colin Powell and the Bush administration "lied" about WMDs in Iraq. Which is to say, they repeated things that were given to them by CIA/intel, which turned out to be either incorrect, inaccurate or incomplete.


CIA/intel work extremely close with the executive branch in those types of crisis situations. Spinning the story is a collaborative effort, best PR types work in and around the White House.

Why is it so difficult to just admit all political parties are equal opportunity bull artists? Bush was dishonest and aggressive with a low IQ, Clinton extremely intelligent but a compulsive liar....Obama middling intelligence, inexperienced and dishonest. Why defend any of these bozos?

Their press staff are masters of spin and cover-ups. To a point I understand, if the public readily understood the offers that reach the desks of high-level officials these debates would subside replaced by general malaise.

Denial? Naïveté? Lack of exposure? Honestly don't get the emotional defense of a specific party when they are both out to line their pockets and reach the speaking/book circuits.
popper
Veteran
Posts: 2,874
And1: 413
Joined: Jun 19, 2010

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#98 » by popper » Thu May 9, 2013 9:22 pm

Nivek wrote:
popper wrote:
Nivek wrote:That American Thinker timeline is misleading right from the start. For example, third entry down says there was a cable sent from State "signed by Clinton." Wow, pretty damning. Except...apparently the way the State Department cable system works, EVERYTHING cabled from DC to a foreign outpost is "signed" by the Secretary. EVERYTHING cabled from an outpost back to DC is "signed" by the ambassador or the top-ranking official.


That is true to an extent Nivek. What competent manager though would allow communication to go out with their name attached without knowledge of its content. In thirty years of business experience, mostly at the executive level, none that I know of. It's Business 101 for gosh sakes. She either knows and approves of the content and transmission with her name attached or she is incompetent.


Umm, this "signature" thing has been the practice at State for a long time. Washington Post had a good piece about this when the GOP started trying to make something of these "signed" cables. They include links to a variety of cables "signed" by Condoleeza Rice when she was Secretary -- including lofty subjects like a travel alert, and a shortage of hotel rooms in Monrovia.

They also have links to cables "signed" by Hillary Clinton on stuff like managing the e-mail system (included tips like not using all capital letters because it's perceived as shouting) and new phone numbers in Brazzaville.

I understand and respect your business experience, but...we're not talking about business. We're talking government. It's antiquated. It's silly. But, it is how State Department operates.

Now, the GOP is welcome to continue pretending that the "signed" cables mean that Clinton knew or should have known what was in them. But, that's exactly what they'd be doing -- pretending.


Fair enough Nivek. I think your portrayal is accurate. The system should be reformed to reflect best practices. Otherwise our leaders can always claim they knew nothing about whatever controversy arises.
User avatar
Nivek
Head Coach
Posts: 7,406
And1: 959
Joined: Sep 29, 2010
Contact:
         

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#99 » by Nivek » Thu May 9, 2013 9:25 pm

Induveca wrote:
CIA/intel work extremely close with the executive branch in those types of crisis situations. Spinning the story is a collaborative effort, best PR types work in and around the White House.


Sure. As someone who has written talking points in a crisis situation, I know that in a matter like this, the intel rep is going to have considerable sway. If the CIA guy says, "We don't want to say that because...blah, blah, blah national security...blah, blah..." then it's probably not going to be said.

Why is it so difficult to just admit all political parties are equal opportunity bull artists? Bush was dishonest and aggressive with a low IQ, Clinton extremely intelligent but a compulsive liar....Obama middling intelligence, inexperienced and dishonest. Why defend any of these bozos?


I've written dozens of times in the now 6-part politics thread that both parties and virtually all politicians are full of crap.
"A lot of what we call talent is the desire to practice."
-- Malcolm Gladwell

Check out my blog about the Wizards, movies, writing, music, TV, sports, and whatever else comes to mind.
Severn Hoos
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,443
And1: 223
Joined: May 09, 2002

Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#100 » by Severn Hoos » Thu May 9, 2013 9:27 pm

I don't own a gun, and hope I never get to the point where I feel I have to own one. (If I do, it will probably be too late to get one anyway.) But I can say that I feel MUCH safer living in an area with high (legal) gun ownership. Criminals are many things, but one thing they generally are not is stupid. And they don't tend to target places where they have a higher likelihood of encountering a gun owner. I've even been tempted to put an NRA sticker or even an empty gun rack on the back of my vehicles, just to give the illusion of a deterrent.

Because of that, I tend to default on the side of "gun rights", although am more open to some true commonsense approaches than maybe some of the more vociferous supporters of the 2nd Amendment.

With that background, I would respectfully say that when I hear things like "the 2nd Amendment needs to be repealed", I sometimes feel like a middle school math teacher grading a test where a student went from step 2 to step 5 in solving a problem. In other words, "show your work." What do I mean? Well, let me ask: what percentage of mass shootings are performed by NRA members? What percentage of violent crimes? Armed assaults or robberies?

I would wager that it is a very low percentage. And that's the problem that I have with gun control legislation. It seems to be aimed entirely at people who will follow the law (since professional criminals will not be deterred by such regulations). Which means it is aimed at those who are the least likely to be an actual threat to the public, since they tend to be respectful of the law, even the individual statutes they don't agree with. Whereas the people who are more inclined to commit crimes anyway will not be deterred by gun control laws.

BUT - there is a link in there, I just think it's not often clearly stated. And that link is that guns which are owned legally by law-abiding citizens can fall into the wrong hands. [jim & Zonk - I think you both alluded to this issue before, kudos - I think it should be the primary argument for tighter restrictions.] This could include everything from stolen weapons to children accessing their parents' guns to unstable family members getting legally registered guns from their relatives. Again, I would like to see what the actual percentages are, because I suspect that these are the minority of cases, but am open to the argument.

The problem is - when you go down this road (as popper did a few pages back), the remedy is less about restricting the acquisition of guns as it is about the responsibility of the owner to secure his guns. And in that, I'd be OK with severe penalties for the person who allows (including through negligence) his legally registered gun to be used in the commission of a crime. At that point, he can/should be treated as an accomplice. That should cause the law-abiding citizens to clamp down, keep their guns in safes, always have the safety on, etc.

In the end, my biggest fear about gun control is exactly that we have an entire nation that looks like Chicago or Baltimore. The law abiding citizens are disarmed, while the criminals are only marginally affected. Not sure who said it, but the recipe is a short-term spike in violent crime for the hope of a gun-free future. And even that is compromised by overseas manufacturers, porous borders, and the remaining need for guns (police, military) offering a target for professional criminals. The current system is far from perfect and could use a good amount of tweaking, but I still prefer it to what I consider the false hope of total disarmament.
"A society that puts equality - in the sense of equality of outcome - ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality nor freedom. The use of force to achieve equality will destroy freedom" Milton Friedman, Free to Choose

Return to Washington Wizards