Caron "Grape Drink" Butler Must Go Now!!

[JonathanJoseph]

I'm sorry, but even his game tonight was bad news in my eyes.

I mean, it's like the old Sesame Street 'One of these kids is doing his own thing' spots. He's just so completely out of sync with the flow of the offense; the only difference between his good and bad games is that the ball happens to go in on bad shots during the 'good' games. Even tonight (@Toronto) he was -10 in 38 minutes; he was the only starter with a negative +/-. We put our run on with McGuire subbing for him; in the 10 minutes McGuire played, we were +14!

I just cringe when Juice gets the ball at this point. I'm sorry, I just do. He is so johnny one note. He was waved off like 12 times by Gil and Boink when calling for the ball on the left wing. Had they fed him in those situations, I think this would have been a bad game too.

He just needs to be playing in another system. I know he can play, but here he just grabs the steering wheel and swings the course straight for Jack-town. He is playing defense and rebounding, I'll admit it. If he took half as many shots and passed the ball again I'd be pleased.

Ok, enough griping.

Jamison takes quick shots and doesn't pass much, sure, but even when it doesn't work, I'm thinking "I totally see what Jamison was trying to do there and it was not a bad idea, nor was it poorly executed". I'm sure others would disagree, but I never second guess Jamison on offense.

Suffice to say that, as others have mentioned, I'd prefer to see more of Blatche and McGee with Miller, Jamison, McGuire at small forward. At this point, I'd about accept Boykins or Oberto there actually.

Totally agree that tonight was an awful game for Caron Butler. His defense has been pretty good and he's been hitting the boards but he is killing the offense and his ego is a significant part of the team chemistry problem.

His assist to turnover ratio looks pretty steady now that we are about 25% through the season and it's awful. His wild behind the back pass that resulted in an unforced turnover is not acceptable for a guy with 1.2 assists/gm vs 2.69 turnovers/gm.

And worse, the mental (and physical) lapses are getting out of hand. If anyone has the game TIVO'd, check out 2:05 left in the 2Q. Caron stood and watched Turkoglu chase down a rebound. Didn't move as if it were shootaround, and then proceeded to push Javale McGee as if it were his responsibility to check his man. This was nothing short of a pathetic effort.

Sorry to keep harping on this, but when your team captain seems to have transformed from a humble hardworker with a chip on his shoulder into a selfish diva, it's just shocking. Butler loudly blamed the "young guys" last season and proclaimed himself an all-star. If I'm McGee and Butler is physically pushing me because he's too lazy to stay with his man right after blaming the losing on me, I don't have too much respect for my captain.

[closg00]

Alright...reasonably good game tonight. I may just change the title. You hear that Fruit Juice! I dare you to make me change this title! I dare you to make this thread irrelevant! I don't think you're man enough!

Yes, Caron did look much better out there tonight and didn't press as-much.

[Hoopalotta]

All right, nobody wants the 'Yay Butler!' thread to be sullied with grousing, so this one is getting bumped....

The Case against Butler:

Advanced statistics show that Butler's counterpart PER is 9.4 as of now, which is indeed very good. Unfortunately for Butler, the stats don't end there....

Team Effective FG% Allowed:
Butler On: 50.4% Butler Off: 46.7%

Team Points Per 100 Possessions Allowed:
Butler On: 109.4 Butler Off: 110.0

He's a huge help in our defensive rebounding rating (+7.9%) and actually out paces Mike Miller there by a fair margin. So as to the 'PP100P' stat, without the rebounding, he would probably be a net negative defensively there. There's a few feasible reasons for that, and it's possible that his offense - turnovers, quick shots, etc. - is affecting this.

Offensively, we have this....

Team Effective FG%:
Butler On: 45.5% Butler Off: 50%

Team Points Per 100 Possessions:
Butler On: 101.3 Butler Off: 112.1

I mean, you don't really need a lot of editorial comments to put that into perspective there. Those are just bad numbers. Bad. Bad. Bad.

So what does it mean? Well, the idea that Butler is adapting to a new system, sacrificing, getting the ball in awkward spots, not able to go to his bread and butter and out of sync with Arenas is all pretty solid. I agree that he is playing poorly without actually being a poor player. He looked good in the Bucks game with us going to him with a certain deliberateness there and guys were able to play off him. That's the biggest problem really, to this point in the season no one has been able to play off him and he can't really play off anyone else, except ever so often with the odd backdoor cut or something. Typically, when he scores, it's just in 'isolation' in both senses of the word. A spot in time where a difficult shot caused the ball to go in that cause the opposing defense to make no adjustments. They're not saying "Scramble all interceptors! don't let Tough Juice fling up any more of those elbow 20 footers off the dribble with a hand in the face after a hesitation! leave Haywood open down low for a dunk if you have to, but don't give juice that shot! He'll kill you every time!"

I mean, there's no point in blaming Butler exclusively and yes, this thread is not sporting a real classy moniker. I don't 'Hate' Butler. But I just don't see him now as a third-weapon/glue-guy kind of player, at least not in this system with these players. Is it just the system? I don't know, it's hard to see it really, but it's possible. Here's a Flipper quote that seemed to me to be pertinent...

"Our main thing is basically playing basketball, playing the right way and playing how they [the bad guys] would play almost controlled and you [your Washington Warlocks] would play almost pickup basketball," he said. "[in this system] You're playing pick and rolls, you're moving the basketball, you're playing how you've been playing since you were in ninth grade. So it's not a major change of how guys are going to play."

Many would say that that has as much to do with Gil as Butler, but I think we'd all agree that we need Gil to go a little bit 'pickup' now and again, if not more often than that. I don't think the results are there to give Butler that same kind of leeway though.

But while we're on the subject of Gil......more than anything that we can point to about Butler alone, it just seems like he and Arenas are just WAAAAAYYYY off with each other. I mean, some might say that Arenas will get healthier and then they will start to execute better together, but it's not even like they're doing anything together and it's being confounded by poor execution. I can hardly remember seeing them even attempt to collaborate on anything substantive this season.

My take on the Bucks game where CB was getting some interesting looks was that he did well when Arenas wasn't involved, but my feed was real choppy, so I can't be sure. But it's hard to see how anything on the court between those two suggest that the rift, which might I remind you all, was public and sour, has any kind of basketball foundation upon which to heal. Gil and Boink waved Caron off on the elbow many, many times in the Toronto game, and they don't seem to have the inclination or patience to give him the ball in spots like those iso-post ups he worked early against Milwaukee. I mean, if they were forced to reminisce about individual plays this season and say to each other, “hey, remember that play where you......and then I......”, it would be a pretty awkward moment.

I don't have a tidy conclusion really. I'm quite sure that Butler doesn't 'Suck' and I think he'd probably explode if he could go to a team that ran offense through him or could integrate him into their play book a bit better. Despite the numbers I mentioned above, I do think his defense is pretty solid (though our whole team is shaky on perimeter rotations). But I'm just not sold on the argument that things are going to get substantially better with him here. I think Flip was trying to go to some new looks in the Bucks game, and it would be nice if it was a new trend, but I just think it's really hard when there is no chemistry between he and Gil, the conduit through which our offense is run.

[WizarDynasty]

Biggest thing I am noticing is that Butler is adding a second burst move..after his first dribble burst past his defender to avoid the charger. He is already predicting a help defender is setting up for the charge and is developing counter passes with his team mates..aka Blatche for dunk when normally its a charge..or that pretty lead catch from Arenas where he dribble behind the basket and the laid it in. I am really enjoying seeing his explosiveness.

[LyricalRico]

Biggest thing I am noticing is that Butler is adding a second burst move..after his first dribble burst past his defender to avoid the charger. He is already predicting a help defender is setting up for the charge and is developing counter passes with his team mates..aka Blatche for dunk when normally its a charge..or that pretty lead catch from Arenas where he dribble behind the basket and the laid it in. I am really enjoying seeing his explosiveness.

Those playse are few and far between for Butler IMO. From what I've seen, he far more often either gets called for the charge or commits another type of turnover. The fact that he does it sometimes proves that he can make good plays, which makes it even more frustrating that those kinds of plays aren't the norm for him.

[JWizmentality]

Alright...reasonably good game tonight. I may just change the title. You hear that Fruit Juice! I dare you to make me change this title! I dare you to make this thread irrelevant! I don't think you're man enough!

That's all I needed to know. You're still a p*ssy fruit juice!!!!

[Wizards2Lottery]

He pump fakes on wide open shots. It makes no **** sense.

[ErikChowbay023]

He now going through what Gilbert went,and is slowly coming out of...He is over thinking the game...Caron is a very good players...but like we said with Gil if he would just play...everybody can flow...I saw some bad things tonight but I also saw some god things...

So only time will tell....

Food for though...Sixers are really looking to off load Brand..as quick as possible...Could a Caron ..Brand trade be in the works...Brand is perfect for this system...

[LyricalRico]

He now going through what Gilbert went,and is slowly coming out of...He is over thinking the game...Caron is a very good players...but like we said with Gil if he would just play...everybody can flow...I saw some bad things tonight but I also saw some god things...

So only time will tell....

My response to that is that it's one thing to wait for Gil to come around. First, we would be smart to wait and see if he improved because he's a franchise player who can average nearly 30ppg and carry a team. And second, we really don't have a choice because his contract makes him nigh untradeable.

Butler is neither overtalented nor overpaid. He's a guy we can move to lots of teams for lots of different things in return, so we really don't have to wait on him because we can just trade him for somebody who's a better fit.

And if it's an issue where Gil and Caron's personalities/egos are clashing, Gilbert should win every time because he's the better player. Caron should be deferring or leaving. Period.

Food for though...Sixers are really looking to off load Brand..as quick as possible...Could a Caron ..Brand trade be in the works...Brand is perfect for this system...

That's a longterm cap killer, though. Presumably we could get them to take DeBrick so we wouldn't feel it next season but down the road our cap is going to be maxed out just with Gil+AJ+Brand. Seeing how Blatche is progressing, I don't see Brand being that valuable to us.

[MJG]

I doubt I'm the only one who rolls his head back and let out a sigh whenever he touches the ball on offense. How could it have come to this? Two years ago the guy was the bee's knees. Sad.

[closg00]

He now going through what Gilbert went,and is slowly coming out of...He is over thinking the game...Caron is a very good players...but like we said with Gil if he would just play...everybody can flow...I saw some bad things tonight but I also saw some god things...

So only time will tell....

Food for though...Sixers are really looking to off load Brand..as quick as possible...Could a Caron ..Brand trade be in the works...Brand is perfect for this system...

I'm more interested in seeing if we can get Andre Miller from Portland, he's on the block.

[tkunit]

He now going through what Gilbert went,and is slowly coming out of...He is over thinking the game...Caron is a very good players...but like we said with Gil if he would just play...everybody can flow...I saw some bad things tonight but I also saw some god things...

So only time will tell....

Food for though...Sixers are really looking to off load Brand..as quick as possible...Could a Caron ..Brand trade be in the works...Brand is perfect for this system...

I'm more interested in seeing if we can get Andre Miller from Portland, he's on the block.

Andre miller would be a horrible choice for the wizards.

[LyricalRico]

^ Agreed. He's not the same set-up man he was in the past and I don't think he complements Gil at all. I think we can get a similar player for much less.

[closg00]

^ Agreed. He's not the same set-up man he was in the past and I don't think he complements Gil at all. I think we can get a similar player for much less.

I admit to not knowing much about Miller's game. I figured if Portland went after him that he must be good

[Hoopalotta]

I think Miller would be quite good here. Keep in mind that Gil and he would only be on the court in tandem for about a third of the total game (like say Andre plays 28 minutes off the bench and Gil's at the two guard for about 16)

Honestly, he's had a good effect on Portland as a whole, all the on-off numbers show it, it's just that he's had a bad effect on Brandon Roy, a player for which no point guard can substantially interact with. Most everyone on the Portland board digs Andre's game, except that his jumper is a bit busted this year.

And I mean, take a look at Philly......

But it would also be interesting from an 'irresistible force versus the immovable object' kind of way between our medical staff and his uncanny health.

[montestewart]

I like Miller's game and think his effect on offenses he runs has been underestimated throughout his career. Philadelphia could use him this year. In some ways, his game is similar to to the drive and dish aspect of Arenas' game, but he does it better (or he did in the past. He doesn't have the outside dimension or Arenas' overall arsenal, so not nearly as valuable overall, and at this stage of his career, I wouldn't want to give Butler up just to get him to (largely) back Arenas up, especially since we have Boykins, for much less than Miller gets, and he's been doing a pretty good job.

[LyricalRico]

Maybe you guys are right about Andre Miller. He had to be a scoring option in Denver and Philly because of injuries and lack of talent respectively. If he was playing next to Gil and had Jamison and Mike Miller set up outside, maybe he'd be the distributor he's historically been. He certainly can't be any worse than Caron "The Offense Stops When I Get The Ball And Do Meaningless Pump Fakes" Butler.

After thinking about it, Caron+Stevenson for Miller+Outlaw+Batum is looking a little better.

[JonathanJoseph]

I doubt I'm the only one who rolls his head back and let out a sigh whenever he touches the ball on offense. How could it have come to this? Two years ago the guy was the bee's knees. Sad.

No. I'm also stunned and wondering how it has come to this.

I'm actually wondering when, not if, when Caron Butler is not named an all-star again this year if he's going to complain about being snubbed.

Or blame the young players.

[dcballer]

Hey guys I start a petition to slop Caron Butler from playing. Please sign it

http://www.petitionspot.com/petitions/carinover

[JonathanJoseph]

Bump.

Caron Butler took 20 shots and had 1 assist tonight and his comments (and Flip's comments) after the game paint a picture of a bad teammate.

Caron Butler somehow has become the bad apple. I'd trade him at all costs asap.