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Is it time to flip flop on Flip?

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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#81 » by TheSecretWeapon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:51 pm

I think we all see the same capabilities when these youngsters get on the floor. Blatche has skills. Young has skills, athletic ability, freakishly long arms. McGee is LOOOOOOOONG, and fast and can jump out of the gym. And he's quick. McGuire runs and jumps well, has long arms, and has nice instincts for blocking shots and grabbing rebounds. Anyone can see those things.

I KNOW the front office sees those capabilities because I've talked with guys over there about that. I KNOW the previous coaching staffs saw those capabilities because I talked the them about these players. Heck, that's why they got drafted.

But, basketball isn't a track meet. It's not about who can run the fastest or jump the highest or has the longest arms. At some point, there has to be application of those capabilities to the game. There has to be a commitment from the players. And we now have 3 different coaches who have recognized the same "lack" in these players.

CCJ wrote:I will end by saying that TSW and others IMO give credit to authority figures and older guys, but tend to discount ability and athleticism and untapped skills. I see things in players time and time agains only to be told I don't know what I'm talking about, when I'm pretty sure I do.


CCJ: I love you like a brother, but this is way off the mark. I was talking about the need to give Haywood more minutes when everyone else was saying how much he sucked. I said clearly and unequivocally that Eddie was wrong on Haywood -- and many other things as well. I've criticized roster moves publicly and privately.

I don't give credit to "authority figures" or "older guys" or discount anything. I go by what I see -- on the floor during games, statistical analysis, and what I saw and heard when I used to visit the locker room. Yeah, these kids have untapped ability and skills. But I don't think it's the coach's fault. It's their own fault for not working hard, doing what the coaches ask and preparing themselves to play.

That's not expecting them to prepare and practice like a 10th year vet -- it's expecting them to do the minimum required of them by the coaching staff. If they were showing signs of learning, signs of "getting it" they'd be getting minutes because Flip isn't a moron.

The argument that Flip is biased against certain players might be more plausible if he hadn't come along after two other coaches who apparently had the same bias. I think all of us believe that McGee, for example, has the capability to be a great player. The fact that he can't get on the floor should be embarrassing to him. It should motivate him to work his tail off, pay attention to every bit of instruction he receives, and become the player the team needs him to be. The fact that hasn't speaks poorly about him.

And by the way, I do recall that Eddie started McGee. So did Tapscott at first. McGee ended up starting 14 games. Their record: 3-11. I still think the kid has a world of potential. It's a shame he has thus far resisted efforts to help him develop the work ethic he needs to develop that potential.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#82 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:21 pm

Good post, TSW. I love you like a brother, too. You're still the smartest guy I know.

I apologize for accusing you of siding with "the man" as far as authority figures goes.

My thoughts on McGee are not based on talking to anyone. Just intuition and what I think from a distance. I think the kid's mom and he both are pissed off at the Wizards and want Javale to be playing somewhere else.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on whether guys are paying attention or not. I believe Flip gives guys like Jamison and Butler all the license in the world to take bad shots and play bad defense (moreso Jamison) but he overcorrects the young guys.

Just my opinion.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#83 » by Ruzious » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:30 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:My thoughts on McGee are not based on talking to anyone. Just intuition and what I think from a distance. I think the kid's mom and he both are pissed off at the Wizards and want Javale to be playing somewhere else.

To make a statement like that... Is there more than intuition involved - something Javale or Pam said?
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#84 » by LyricalRico » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:31 pm

Saunders later singled out Andray Blatche, who went scoreless with three rebounds and two turnovers in 11 minutes. "I told Andray, 'I've seen enough of that behind-the-back dribble in the lane. That might've worked on the playgrounds, but it ain't going to work here.' Every time he does that, he turns it over. There are habits that have to be broken."

When informed of Saunders's comment after the game, Blatche said: "He's the man. I don't have anything to say about that."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01985.html

This is why Blatche will never be a star and you can't criticize Flip for that.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#85 » by closg00 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:35 pm

[quote="Chocolate City Jordanaire"]Good post, TSW. I love you like a brother, too. You're still the smartest guy I know.

I apologize for accusing you of siding with "the man" as far as authority figures goes.

My thoughts on McGee are not based on talking to anyone. Just intuition and what I think from a distance. I think the kid's mom and he both are pissed off at the Wizards and want Javale to be playing somewhere else.

I'll have to agree to disagree with you on whether guys are paying attention or not. I believe Flip gives guys like Jamison and Butler all the license in the world to take bad shots and play bad defense (moreso Jamison) but he overcorrects the young guys.

Just my opinion.quote]

When McGee failed to execute a last-second play properly, he was yelled-at openly as he was coming off the floor. DNP's followed and that has been the norm for Mcgee. When Caron ignored Flips directions under similar circumstances, Flip kept his cool and did not call-out Caron in the presser. Caron's was not punished, and he continues to play around 40 minutes per game.

Fact, NOT opinion.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#86 » by nate33 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:43 pm

I'd say Flip did indeed call out Butler. What exactly is one supposed to infer from the statement: "that's not the play that was called".
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#87 » by TheSecretWeapon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:49 pm

If you're the coach, and you have a choice between playing a guy who does what you ask him to do 85 times out of a 100 and a guy who does what you ask him to do 50 times out of a 100, who are you going to play?

Now, let's say the guy doing the 85/100 has played at a high level for multiple years. That he's a recent All-Star. And let's say the guy doing 50/100 has no professional accomplishments. That the 50/100 guy has very little in the way of even collegiate accomplishments. Who are you going to play?
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#88 » by LyricalRico » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:56 pm

"Again we have to call a timeout with 8:35 left in the first quarter. I mean, that’s getting ridiculous," said Saunders after the game.

<snip>

"We come into games playing like we’re the team that’s 26-8 or something," said Saunders. "That’s got to stop. We just can’t continue. We just have to come out with a sense of urgency early. That’s why right now we’re searching for people to put in, consistent people that will give us consistency in what we’re trying to do."


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sport ... 67242.html

:clap:

Flip calling out the starters, and also possibly signaling upcoming deals with the "we're searching for people" comment.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#89 » by Donkey McDonkerton » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:01 pm

I'm absolutely not ready to lay all of the (or most of) the blame on Saunders. He's a good coach, its just not working with these players. It didnt work last year with these players, with two different coaches. The team needs to shaken up, that's pretty much all there is too it.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#90 » by dandridge 10 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:24 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:I think we all see the same capabilities when these youngsters get on the floor. Blatche has skills. Young has skills, athletic ability, freakishly long arms. McGee is LOOOOOOOONG, and fast and can jump out of the gym. And he's quick. McGuire runs and jumps well, has long arms, and has nice instincts for blocking shots and grabbing rebounds. Anyone can see those things.

I KNOW the front office sees those capabilities because I've talked with guys over there about that. I KNOW the previous coaching staffs saw those capabilities because I talked the them about these players. Heck, that's why they got drafted.

But, basketball isn't a track meet. It's not about who can run the fastest or jump the highest or has the longest arms. At some point, there has to be application of those capabilities to the game. There has to be a commitment from the players. And we now have 3 different coaches who have recognized the same "lack" in these players.

CCJ wrote:I will end by saying that TSW and others IMO give credit to authority figures and older guys, but tend to discount ability and athleticism and untapped skills. I see things in players time and time agains only to be told I don't know what I'm talking about, when I'm pretty sure I do.


CCJ: I love you like a brother, but this is way off the mark. I was talking about the need to give Haywood more minutes when everyone else was saying how much he sucked. I said clearly and unequivocally that Eddie was wrong on Haywood -- and many other things as well. I've criticized roster moves publicly and privately.

I don't give credit to "authority figures" or "older guys" or discount anything. I go by what I see -- on the floor during games, statistical analysis, and what I saw and heard when I used to visit the locker room. Yeah, these kids have untapped ability and skills. But I don't think it's the coach's fault. It's their own fault for not working hard, doing what the coaches ask and preparing themselves to play.

That's not expecting them to prepare and practice like a 10th year vet -- it's expecting them to do the minimum required of them by the coaching staff. If they were showing signs of learning, signs of "getting it" they'd be getting minutes because Flip isn't a moron.

The argument that Flip is biased against certain players might be more plausible if he hadn't come along after two other coaches who apparently had the same bias. I think all of us believe that McGee, for example, has the capability to be a great player. The fact that he can't get on the floor should be embarrassing to him. It should motivate him to work his tail off, pay attention to every bit of instruction he receives, and become the player the team needs him to be. The fact that hasn't speaks poorly about him.

And by the way, I do recall that Eddie started McGee. So did Tapscott at first. McGee ended up starting 14 games. Their record: 3-11. I still think the kid has a world of potential. It's a shame he has thus far resisted efforts to help him develop the work ethic he needs to develop that potential.


I couldn't have said it any better, TSW. Good post.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#91 » by closg00 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:24 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
"Again we have to call a timeout with 8:35 left in the first quarter. I mean, that’s getting ridiculous," said Saunders after the game.

<snip>

"We come into games playing like we’re the team that’s 26-8 or something," said Saunders. "That’s got to stop. We just can’t continue. We just have to come out with a sense of urgency early. That’s why right now we’re searching for people to put in, consistent people that will give us consistency in what we’re trying to do."


http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sport ... 67242.html

:clap:

Flip calling out the starters, and also possibly signaling upcoming deals with the "we're searching for people" comment.


That could a reference to why James got some PT.

Flip call talk all he wants, but as-long as the Caron & AJ are untouchable and continue to log 40 minutes per game in the same roles, Flip is just blowing smoke.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#92 » by dandridge 10 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:33 pm

TheSecretWeapon wrote:If you're the coach, and you have a choice between playing a guy who does what you ask him to do 85 times out of a 100 and a guy who does what you ask him to do 50 times out of a 100, who are you going to play?

Now, let's say the guy doing the 85/100 has played at a high level for multiple years. That he's a recent All-Star. And let's say the guy doing 50/100 has no professional accomplishments. That the 50/100 guy has very little in the way of even collegiate accomplishments. Who are you going to play?


In addition to all of the above, if your boss also spent millions of dollars on on that guy that does 85 out of 100 things right, and most of the purchasing customers are coming to watch those players play, who are you going to play?
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#93 » by closg00 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:36 pm

dandridge 10 wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:If you're the coach, and you have a choice between playing a guy who does what you ask him to do 85 times out of a 100 and a guy who does what you ask him to do 50 times out of a 100, who are you going to play?

Now, let's say the guy doing the 85/100 has played at a high level for multiple years. That he's a recent All-Star. And let's say the guy doing 50/100 has no professional accomplishments. That the 50/100 guy has very little in the way of even collegiate accomplishments. Who are you going to play?


In addition to all of the above, if your boss also spent millions of dollars on on that guy that does 85 out of 100 things right, and most of the purchasing customers are coming to watch those players play, who are you going to play?


Shouldn't you be playing the guy that's getting the job done? Why do we continue to see DS at all on the floor?
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#94 » by dandridge 10 » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:53 pm

Ok, well tell me who is getting the job done?? I admit that DS sucks, and I also wonder why gets any minutes at all, but who is going to play that is all that much better than him. Its not like DS is getting tons of minutes. He's not the reason why this team sucks monkeyballs.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#95 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:13 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:My thoughts on McGee are not based on talking to anyone. Just intuition and what I think from a distance. I think the kid's mom and he both are pissed off at the Wizards and want Javale to be playing somewhere else.

To make a statement like that... Is there more than intuition involved - something Javale or Pam said?


A while back Pam McGee had a web page with "Free McGee" on it. Might have been Facebook.

I just put that thought with TSW's assertion that McGee had resisted coaching and thought maybe he doesn't really respect the coaches. That and him having played 15 minutes a game last season and virtually none this season.

McGee would have been a college senior. He made his money, but I know if he were at a college where he wasn't playing, or where his play suffered he would have transferred. (Wesley Johnson and Epke Udoh are transfer students, both older than Javale IIRC withouth looking up birthdates).
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#96 » by dobrojim » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:08 pm

^ maybe this is a case where having the backing of his mom isN'T helping
by giving the kid a rationalization for his apparent poor work habits. His
mom, a former pro, thinks he should play more -> the coach must not
know anything.

I'm not sure who to side with here. I've seen some things I really like
about Flip, and been dumbfounded by other things (like playing DS over N1).
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#97 » by jholmbe1 » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:11 pm

dobrojim wrote:^ maybe this is a case where having the backing of his mom isN'T helping
by giving the kid a rationalization for his apparent poor work habits. His
mom, a former pro, thinks he should play more -> the coach must not
know anything.

I'm not sure who to side with here. I've seen some things I really like
about Flip, and been dumbfounded by other things (like playing DS over N1).


At what point do we start blaming Nick Young for his lack of playing time? My opinion is that he has a lot of talent but does not take the game seriously and has no bball iq. You can keep making excuses for him and demanding he receive playing time but the truth is that if he was any better than Stevenson he would be on the court.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#98 » by TheSecretWeapon » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:15 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:My thoughts on McGee are not based on talking to anyone. Just intuition and what I think from a distance. I think the kid's mom and he both are pissed off at the Wizards and want Javale to be playing somewhere else.

To make a statement like that... Is there more than intuition involved - something Javale or Pam said?


A while back Pam McGee had a web page with "Free McGee" on it. Might have been Facebook.

I just put that thought with TSW's assertion that McGee had resisted coaching and thought maybe he doesn't really respect the coaches. That and him having played 15 minutes a game last season and virtually none this season.

McGee would have been a college senior. He made his money, but I know if he were at a college where he wasn't playing, or where his play suffered he would have transferred. (Wesley Johnson and Epke Udoh are transfer students, both older than Javale IIRC withouth looking up birthdates).


"Resisted" isn't the word I would use. "Ignored" is better. Maybe it's just semantics.

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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#99 » by fishercob » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:28 pm

dobrojim wrote:^ maybe this is a case where having the backing of his mom isN'T helping
by giving the kid a rationalization for his apparent poor work habits. His
mom, a former pro, thinks he should play more -> the coach must not
know anything.

I'm not sure who to side with here. I've seen some things I really like
about Flip, and been dumbfounded by other things (like playing DS over N1).



If McGee wants to give the organization the impression that he's an actual adult, it may serve him not to have his mommy campaigning for PT in public OR private. I don't care if his mom played in the WNBA, NBA or NFL. Be a man, work your ass off and give the coaches NO CHOICE other than to play you.

It's no wonder why a dude of his physical talent fell to 18th.
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Re: Is it time to flip flop on Flip? 

Post#100 » by keynote » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:37 pm

I still find it interesting that the son of a *female* pro basketball player is so fundamentally unsound. The women's game is predicated on mastering fundamentals, since few women have the athleticism and hops to succeed with a playground game alone.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: I suspect that Pam spoiled JaVale. He hasn't wanted for much, and with his winning ticket in the genetic lottery, he never had to work for much. Instead of sending JaVale to a major program to work on his game and come off the bench (I'm sure he had the opportunity), the McGees sent their son to Nevada to learn under a coach who thought he was a "natural small forward."

We'll see whether Flip & Co. can make something out of this guy. But I agree with others in this thread that I have yet to see in him the innate drive to be a star. Frankly, most of EG's picks have yet to display the motor necessary to succeed. Say what you want about Jamison and Butler, but both players had developed and honed their games by leaps and bounds over the first few years of their respective careers: Jamison developed SF skills offensively; Caron shed weight and added range to his J, etc. I don't project any of our young players to be able to transform themselves in a similar way.
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