Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing

[closg00]

Wrong again Closg. I was talking about before EG was here. Mostly the worst of what I was talking about involved Abe and Wes combo with Wes either the HC or the GM. Lets take a walk down memory lane.

If it may please the board, I would like to introduce into evidence, the defendant (Hands11), own words with-respect to the timeframe he referred-to when he wrote that the Wizards had been "mismanaged for so long". The evidence will show that the defendants comments regarding Wizards "mismanagement" were limited exclusively to those transactions that occurred under Wizards General Manager Ernest Gruneld (aka Easy Ernie)

The recent claim by the defendant that "I was talking about before EG was here" are demonstrably false and and easily disproved.

If I may, I would like to introduce the defendants comments in their entirety.

I remember not liking the L8ner trade either. Felt they should have kept him that year but know they weren't going to because I knew Abe's MO. 2000 was the blow up year. Abe wasn't going to wait it out to do it right. Can't remember all the details of it now. I think they were still having cap issues and L8 was having injury problems. I think it was his back. I wanted them to keep him until his contract expired. Lose another year if need be. But they wanted Stackhouse gone. He had worn out his welcome.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2004.html

L8 5.6M & Stack 6.9M plus the 5th pick for AJ 12.5M and cash.

They went from 25 wins to 45 wins. So it looked like a good move to the average fan, but it seemed like they were jumping the gun to me. AJ was not ideal. Not a PF because of his D and not a SF either. But a great 6th man on a good team. i.e. Dallas. Felt the AJ addition was a really bad move. More Abe quick fix. Should have road it out and kept the pick. But hey, he was a Wiz so I hoped it worked out. He was fun to watch on offense. Seemed likable and mature. But it was never ideal. Flawed design when you can't play D at PF. At 6M off the bench, he would have been awesome. But he never saw himself as that. That was also part of the problem. My target was someone like K Mart.

Then the following year they got CB for Kwame and picked Dray in the 2nd. 42 wins. Sweet Jesus. WOW.
- but they lost Blake which I felt was a mistake. Felt he would be a solid back PG for years if given minutes.
- still had the Etan problem 5.3M, plus Hayes and that knee 2M, and they added Daniels 5M, 5yrs 30M
- I liked AD, but could have kept Blake cheaper and built slower. They have been mismanage for so long, that was the time to start building slower.

Bad moves based on Abe's win now framework. Time after time he repeated this same mistake. Just when things would start looking better, he jumped to soon. When stings were stall, he drug it out to long patching it up instead of fixing it. Should have kept L8, the 5th pick, and Blake and had the cap room instead of AJ and AD. Same thing that lead to them trading the 5th pick in 2009. Flawed plan from the owner. Abe was very predictable that way.

Could have been a different rebuild if they didn't jump so soon and had a long time horizon such that they reloaded after making the playoffs or stuck it out another year with L8 before getting there.

I trust Ted's at the helm a lot better.

ZERO references to any transactions that took place BEFORE the hiring of Ernest Grunfeld. None. The state rests it's case.

The state requests that the defendant Hands11, be banned from the Wiz Board for eternity. In-lieu of lifetime banishment, The state would recommend that the defendant be condemned to post comments no-longer than one sentence in-length, for 10 years.

Thank you

[montestewart]

^
I think Guinness Book of World Records or maybe Ripley's Believe It or Not said the longest sentence was 923 words or something.

[Nivek]

Friend of the board brief: In addition to closg's point, what possible relevance could what went on BEFORE Grunfeld have on evaluating Grunfeld. He's been on the job for a decade. That's more than enough time to change the culture, establish a professional operation and build the team his way. The team's record in that span: third worst in the NBA.

[payitforward]

Friend of the board brief: In addition to closg's point, what possible relevance could what went on BEFORE Grunfeld have on evaluating Grunfeld. He's been on the job for a decade. That's more than enough time to change the culture, establish a professional operation and build the team his way. The team's record in that span: third worst in the NBA.

(A hand raises in the jury box, and we hear the long-suffering juror say...)
And, don't forget that the two franchises who were a little worse (and it's only a little) than EG's Wizards didn't reward the GMs who created those messes with new contracts over and over the way we've rewarded Ernie repeatedly for failure.

Ernie's great skill is and always has been -- managing his owner! He's very good at that.

[Dat2U]

Friend of the board brief: In addition to closg's point, what possible relevance could what went on BEFORE Grunfeld have on evaluating Grunfeld. He's been on the job for a decade. That's more than enough time to change the culture, establish a professional operation and build the team his way. The team's record in that span: third worst in the NBA.

(A hand raises in the jury box, and we hear the long-suffering juror say...)
And, don't forget that the two franchises who were a little worse (and it's only a little) than EG's Wizards didn't reward the GMs who created those messes with new contracts over and over the way we've rewarded Ernie repeatedly for failure.

Ernie's great skill is and always has been -- managing his owner! He's very good at that.

Yep, Ernie is one of the best "yes men" in the NBA.

[rockymac52]

@WojYahooNBA: The Dallas Mavericks have hired Washington Wizards scout Mike Wilson in a player personnel job, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Interesting... another Wizards front office member gets hired by another team. Only adds fuel to the fire regarding the debate over whether all of these guys leaving is a good sign.

Not including the coaching staff, here's a list of what I consider to be the front office of the Wizards this past season:

Ernie Grunfeld: President
Tommy Sheppard: VP, Basketball Administration
Milt Newton: VP, Player Personnel
Ed Tapscott: Director of Player Programs/Scout
Pat Connelly: Director of Player Personnel
Mike Wilson: Director of College Scouting
Gene Banks: Scout
Eugene Park: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Alex Rales: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Greg Kershaw: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Brett Greenberg: Video Coordinator

Newton was recently hired by the Timberwolves to be their new GM.
Connelly was hired by the Suns to be their new Assistant GM.
Wilson was just hired by the Mavericks to work in player personnel.

So we lost our VP of Player Personnel, our Director of Player Personnel, and our Director of College Scouting, who is now working in player personnel. We've got some pretty big holes to fix if you ask me! I'm very curious to see how this unfolds. Do we promote from within, most likely from those three Basketball Operations Coordinators?

[Ruzious]

Wilson I can understand - because his job was college scouting - and he probably didn't get a real high level job at Dallas, but Newton and Connelly were for the Vesely pick and basically did nothing that ended up significantly improving the Wizards - and now they're high level executives elsewhere... it doesn't add up.

[closg00]

Statistically, the numbers don't add up. Judging by the number of Wiz staff departing, one could conclude that Wiz staff are actively seeking employment because??? Could also be just a coincidence.

[rockymac52]

Forgot that we hired Frank Ross to be our Director of Player Personnel, so that solves half of the question I suppose.

[hands11]

Wrong again Closg. I was talking about before EG was here. Mostly the worst of what I was talking about involved Abe and Wes combo with Wes either the HC or the GM. Lets take a walk down memory lane.

If it may please the board, I would like to introduce into evidence, the defendant (Hands11), own words with-respect to the timeframe he referred-to when he wrote that the Wizards had been "mismanaged for so long". The evidence will show that the defendants comments regarding Wizards "mismanagement" were limited exclusively to those transactions that occurred under Wizards General Manager Ernest Gruneld (aka Easy Ernie)

The recent claim by the defendant that "I was talking about before EG was here" are demonstrably false and and easily disproved.

If I may, I would like to introduce the defendants comments in their entirety.

I remember not liking the L8ner trade either. Felt they should have kept him that year but know they weren't going to because I knew Abe's MO. 2000 was the blow up year. Abe wasn't going to wait it out to do it right. Can't remember all the details of it now. I think they were still having cap issues and L8 was having injury problems. I think it was his back. I wanted them to keep him until his contract expired. Lose another year if need be. But they wanted Stackhouse gone. He had worn out his welcome.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WAS/2004.html

L8 5.6M & Stack 6.9M plus the 5th pick for AJ 12.5M and cash.

They went from 25 wins to 45 wins. So it looked like a good move to the average fan, but it seemed like they were jumping the gun to me. AJ was not ideal. Not a PF because of his D and not a SF either. But a great 6th man on a good team. i.e. Dallas. Felt the AJ addition was a really bad move. More Abe quick fix. Should have road it out and kept the pick. But hey, he was a Wiz so I hoped it worked out. He was fun to watch on offense. Seemed likable and mature. But it was never ideal. Flawed design when you can't play D at PF. At 6M off the bench, he would have been awesome. But he never saw himself as that. That was also part of the problem. My target was someone like K Mart.

Then the following year they got CB for Kwame and picked Dray in the 2nd. 42 wins. Sweet Jesus. WOW.
- but they lost Blake which I felt was a mistake. Felt he would be a solid back PG for years if given minutes.
- still had the Etan problem 5.3M, plus Hayes and that knee 2M, and they added Daniels 5M, 5yrs 30M
- I liked AD, but could have kept Blake cheaper and built slower. They have been mismanage for so long, that was the time to start building slower.

Bad moves based on Abe's win now framework. Time after time he repeated this same mistake. Just when things would start looking better, he jumped to soon. When stings were stall, he drug it out to long patching it up instead of fixing it. Should have kept L8, the 5th pick, and Blake and had the cap room instead of AJ and AD. Same thing that lead to them trading the 5th pick in 2009. Flawed plan from the owner. Abe was very predictable that way.

Could have been a different rebuild if they didn't jump so soon and had a long time horizon such that they reloaded after making the playoffs or stuck it out another year with L8 before getting there.

I trust Ted's at the helm a lot better.

ZERO references to any transactions that took place BEFORE the hiring of Ernest Grunfeld. None. The state rests it's case.

The state requests that the defendant Hands11, be banned from the Wiz Board for eternity. In-lieu of lifetime banishment, The state would recommend that the defendant be condemned to post comments no-longer than one sentence in-length, for 10 years.

Thank you

LOL.. Pretty weak lawyering Clogs. No hard feeling though. Its been fun passing the time while nothing else was going on. But, lets set the record straight before we move on.

I am not defiant. Your the one that started this. I just failed to back down when you kept running away from reality. And all this was because you didn't like me bringing Abe up and because you seem to have an odd definition of what " for so long" translates to in years. Clearly, it isn't 2 years. Unless we are doing dog years.

I posted my view on some past moves which was the topic at the time. It started with L8ner, and in there..like you just quoted above..I said this..

Then the following year they got CB for Kwame and picked Dray in the 2nd. 42 wins. Sweet Jesus. WOW.
- but they lost Blake which I felt was a mistake. Felt he would be a solid back PG for years if given minutes.
- still had the Etan problem 5.3M, plus Hayes and that knee 2M, and they added Daniels 5M, 5yrs 30M
- I liked AD, but could have kept Blake cheaper and built slower. They have been mismanage for so long, that was the time to start building slower.

My reference to them being mismanaged was in the section I was talking about them letting Blake go. I said, "They have been mismanaged for so long, that was the time to start building slower" Yes, EG was GM when they let Blake go. And no, I didn't like the move. That happened with in the two years EG had been there. That is not the "for so long" I was referring to.

Now, I don't know what you think "for so long" is but I don't think most would say 2 years qualifies.

Now, so far, all I did was post my view about past moves. I took no shot at you. You are the one that decided to chime in by replying to my post with something about what a GM is and isn't and how the owner has nothing to do with it. To which I clarified my take on how it works, since you misrepresented my view.

To which you asked a question...

"This should be good. Who was mismanaging the team for so long Hands? "

With a big smiley no less.

Honestly, at this point I was confused why you ended it with a smiley and why you wanted to take me on over my "for so long" statement. The answer to for "so long" was obvious. Being confused, I asked what you meant because the answer was so clear. EG had only been there 2 years. You came back with some condescending smerky reply like you got me on something. What ? That you think 2 years is a long time and I don't ? Dude, your tone never made any sense to me and it still doesn't.

So I asked ...

"You asking who was in the front office before EG was there ? " Yeah, I include an eye roll because your post made no sense to me nor did your " this should be good" statement.

Then you continue to go off the reservation like you have some kind of point to make. Even more baffling. You even claim some kind of victory.. So I'm defiant because I wasn't standing still for that. Which honestly, I have no idea why you started. Go back an read.

Again, this is what I wrote. You even keep referencing it.

- I liked AD, but could have kept Blake cheaper and built slower. They have been mismanage for so long, that was the time to start building slower.

But what the hell. Nothing else to write about so I did a walk down memory lane and specifically detailed exactly what I was talking about when I said for so long. Even pulled up NBA reference and warmed up my memory of the hell I watch this team go through.

And with all that in hand, instead of realizing you made a mistake and just saying, oh, I misread what you wrote, sorry for being a db, you go even further off the reservation by actually quoting your mistake and trying to make some law suit out of it. Even suggesting I be banned. lol..

Two years is not "for so long" Closg. I was talking about the previous 15-20 whatever years and I detailed it. And in there, I pointed out what small parts I liked. Not only would almost every person on the planet agree two years is not a long time. I was the one who wrote it. You asked me what I meant. I answered you.

The fact you don't see what happened here is honestly baffling. I have no idea why you wanted to make this an issue or what's going on in your personal life. I have no idea why you wouldn't let it go even when presented with the answer you asked for that was obvious the entire time.

So let me get this straight. I make a harmless post. You reply to it taking me on. I answer your question. You come back in some cocky smerky way. I answer again by asking you what your talking about and defining the period I was. You further try to take me on over something totally stupid. To which I further explain something that should have never needed explained... And I'm defiant and should be banned for eternity ?

Hey, just so you know. I'm smiling over here. I found this entire exchange to be kind of funny. Baffling, yes but funny because it was so strange. Such are the dog days of summer when there is little to talk about.

But now we have some real Wizards stuff to talk about again. Ves is playing and Mini Camp should start soon. First day of football. Wiz Camp will be here before we know it. And the season ahead should be fun to watch.

Honestly Clogs, I don't hold a grudge so I'm ready to move on. I would rather talk about the Wizards. That's my team. I'm a fan. So are you guys. That's why we are hear. That's what I would rather do.

Enjoy your evening. I mean that.

[hands11]

@WojYahooNBA: The Dallas Mavericks have hired Washington Wizards scout Mike Wilson in a player personnel job, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Interesting... another Wizards front office member gets hired by another team. Only adds fuel to the fire regarding the debate over whether all of these guys leaving is a good sign.

Not including the coaching staff, here's a list of what I consider to be the front office of the Wizards this past season:

Ernie Grunfeld: President
Tommy Sheppard: VP, Basketball Administration
Milt Newton: VP, Player Personnel
Ed Tapscott: Director of Player Programs/Scout
Pat Connelly: Director of Player Personnel
Mike Wilson: Director of College Scouting
Gene Banks: Scout
Eugene Park: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Alex Rales: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Greg Kershaw: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Brett Greenberg: Video Coordinator

Newton was recently hired by the Timberwolves to be their new GM.
Connelly was hired by the Suns to be their new Assistant GM.
Wilson was just hired by the Mavericks to work in player personnel.

So we lost our VP of Player Personnel, our Director of Player Personnel, and our Director of College Scouting, who is now working in player personnel. We've got some pretty big holes to fix if you ask me! I'm very curious to see how this unfolds. Do we promote from within, most likely from those three Basketball Operations Coordinators?

Not sure how to read this. Could be a sign of health. Front office getting recognized as things are looking better and now they have an opportunity to make some upgrades. Or it could be people know there is going to be a shack up and they are being given the green light to get out while the getting is good.

So how does this front office stack up compare with other teams ?

[closg00]

Hands is back on the thread and violating the sentence imposed upon him by the judge on the previous page or so.

[montestewart]

Hands is back on the thread and violating the sentence imposed upon him by the judge on the previous page or so.

When he removes all punctuation, line breaks, spacing, and comes at you with a WizD-style wall of words, you might Pine for the old days.

Hands, I recommend reading poetry from Concretist, Dadaist, and Futurist schools, and proceeding accordingly.

[payitforward]

Hands is back on the thread and violating the sentence imposed upon him by the judge on the previous page or so.

Hands is capable of violating any sentence -- even an incomplete sentence -- still I think this is a good question:

how does this front office shack up ...with other teams ?

[noworriesinmd]

@WojYahooNBA: The Dallas Mavericks have hired Washington Wizards scout Mike Wilson in a player personnel job, league sources tell Y! Sports.

Interesting... another Wizards front office member gets hired by another team. Only adds fuel to the fire regarding the debate over whether all of these guys leaving is a good sign.

Not including the coaching staff, here's a list of what I consider to be the front office of the Wizards this past season:

Ernie Grunfeld: President
Tommy Sheppard: VP, Basketball Administration
Milt Newton: VP, Player Personnel
Ed Tapscott: Director of Player Programs/Scout
Pat Connelly: Director of Player Personnel
Mike Wilson: Director of College Scouting
Gene Banks: Scout
Eugene Park: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Alex Rales: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Greg Kershaw: Basketball Operations Coordinator
Brett Greenberg: Video Coordinator

Newton was recently hired by the Timberwolves to be their new GM.
Connelly was hired by the Suns to be their new Assistant GM.
Wilson was just hired by the Mavericks to work in player personnel.

So we lost our VP of Player Personnel, our Director of Player Personnel, and our Director of College Scouting, who is now working in player personnel. We've got some pretty big holes to fix if you ask me! I'm very curious to see how this unfolds. Do we promote from within, most likely from those three Basketball Operations Coordinators?

There are good people in any Organization, including a badly run one. I don't know the skills of the people who have just left...so I'm guessing based on my experience.

I assume that a basketball Organization is run as a top-down structure, meaning that most, if not all, decisions come from the top vs. an Organization in which people below autonomous and given huge leeway. Meaning that you can be a superstar, but your boss is so stupid that you are not able to shine....however every who comes in contact with you knows you are a superstar.

I also assume that NBA teams have "Symbolic" names (i.e. everyone is a financial institution has a cool name like VP, SVP, etc...to determine rank in a financial org you ask...how many people do you manage.) I don't know much about the NBA, but how many people "really" run the an NBA team. Most of the grunt work is done by Monumental...but NBA stuff is done by a staff of ~<50.

I keep hearing that the Wizards have a horrible medical staff...remember, as a healthcare professional working for a team, there is a lot of pressure for you clear and get players well enough to play. If you constantly contradict Management, they can find other professionals who will be more "willing" to go along. Just see Dr. Andrews vs. Shani. Andrews is vocal because he works with multiple teams and players trust him. There are more players to see vs the NBA, which is a small community. A healthcare professional can only do so much if the patient is an idiot. (sorry for rant)

Back to the the Org.
I would guess the people who left are good at their job. They are respected in the NBA....even more so if they are promoted vs getting a lateral move.

I would not read much into these people leaving. Basically Ernie is gone if we don't get to the playoffs.
The good people know this and don't want to be in the market when EVERYONE will be looking. These people had a choice. The rest who remain and either are (1) Loyal to the team (2) well compensated/rich & don't care (3) loyal to Ernie (4) have no choice where to go (i.e. too green or not respected within the NBA)
We all know this is a "put up or shut up year". It's no secret, hence the 2 year contract.

These defections probably confirm that Ernie has to win NOW. Anything less and he's gone. If he wins, I'm not sure, but I would not be surprised if he is extended.

[montestewart]

Making the playoffs with a #1, #6, #3, and #3 pick over four years, along with money to spend on non-rookies, is a pretty low bar. They could peak as a .500 team grabbing 7th and 8th seeds. Terd's MO seems to be how well he can package whatever the Wizards do as "progress" and sell it to anyone that will listen. Firing Ernie would seem to be an acknowledgement of lack of progress, something I haven't seen too much of coming from anyone on the ownership/management level. I wish the team would show a little more, better, faster rather than treating it like a fine whiskey aging in a cask.

[closg00]

Marc Eversley has been hired by the Washington Wizards as vice president of scouting.

Eversley was previously in the front office of the Toronto Raptors under Bryan Colangelo.

The Wizards have lost Milt Newton and Mike Wilson this offseason.

Brilliant

[keynote]

Great! Maybe he can help us find the next Ed Davis.

In any event, I don't think Ujiri fought too hard to keep him:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2 ... house.html

Executive vice-president Ed Stefanski is out, vice-president of college scouting Marc Eversley’s future is at best clouded and bleak according to some sources while the team’s professional and regional scouting department is now barren.

[closg00]

Great! Maybe he can help us find the next Ed Davis.

In any event, I don't think Ujiri fought too hard to keep him:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2 ... house.html

Executive vice-president Ed Stefanski is out, vice-president of college scouting Marc Eversley’s future is at best clouded and bleak according to some sources while the team’s professional and regional scouting department is now barren.

Nice find keynote, this ^ tells you everything you need to know.

[Ruzious]

When EG goes to a restaurant, does he order recycled hot garbage?