ImageImageImageImageImage

Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V

Moderators: LyricalRico, nate33, montestewart

User avatar
sfam
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,462
And1: 548
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
         

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#801 » by sfam » Fri May 24, 2013 7:16 pm

nate33 wrote:According to the Orlando board, they would absolutely take Noel at #2 if the Cavs take Porter. So to get Noel, the Cavs would have to draft him and arrange a trade with us. It looks like it really might be a possibility. The tone on the Cavs board is that they really don't want to deal with a project like Noah and they love Porter.

Noel has real risks as well. His upside may be terrific, but its definitely going to take a few years to get there. I just don't see us giving up that much to move up. We're better off taking the BPA at #3 and then try to package the seconds to move up to take a potential role player, either stretch 4 or combo guard.
verbal8
General Manager
Posts: 8,354
And1: 1,377
Joined: Jul 20, 2006
Location: Herndon, VA
     

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#802 » by verbal8 » Fri May 24, 2013 7:21 pm

Kanyewest wrote:Maybe Otto Porter is like Brandon Roy- above average at everything but not excellent at anything. Perhaps the lack of zone defenses creates more spacing for Porter. The Calbert Cheaney comparison is interesting but I would point out that Cheaney didn't excel in the NBA because he was a below average 3 point shooter. What will be key for Porter to succeed is knocking down open shots along with getting to the foul line; he might have to improve his handle a bit.


Looking at Calbert Cheaney's college vs. NBA shooting is very strange. He was a very good FT shooter in college(~80%), he was only mediocre in the pros(~70%). He was an amazing 3 point shooter in college. His percentage was similar to Ray Allen and Reggie Miller(only one season of 3 point line). Cheaney made almost 150 college 3 pointers at a 43.8% rate. In the pros he made only 200 NBA 3s and shot them at a 30% rate.

His rookie year he shot 23 3 pointers and missed all but 1. His second year he looked like he was on his way to being a respectable 3 point shooter - 98 made at a 33.9% rate. His 3rd year was a similar rate on 1/2 the volume. Then over the next 15000 minutes of his career he made less than 70 3 pointers.
User avatar
Dark Faze
Head Coach
Posts: 6,488
And1: 2,140
Joined: Dec 27, 2008

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#803 » by Dark Faze » Fri May 24, 2013 7:24 pm

I trade the 2nd rounders and whatever guy they want sans Beal/Wall to get Noel if its a choice between that or Bennett, no doubt.

Can Bennett really prove that he deserves to kick Okafor out of here in a single year? Because Okafor is going to want long term security over money for his final contract, and he'll want to start. There's zero chance Bennett is a starter on day 1 with a healthy Nene/Okafor.

So Bennett will have to share the floor with Seraphin lol.

What if Bennett shows flashes ala Blatche and we end up letting Okafor walk and having a starting lineup of Bennett/Nene.

Bennett is such a big risk to me in terms of the entire spirit of this team. We could literally drop significantly in defensive identity if the move doesn't work out, because its not just about Bennett. Making a choice to get him really kills the chances of keeping Okafor.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#804 » by fishercob » Fri May 24, 2013 7:29 pm

Kanyewest wrote:Maybe Otto Porter is like Brandon Roy- above average at everything but not excellent at anything. Perhaps the lack of zone defenses creates more spacing for Porter.



Interesting. Roy was another guy who didn't have the "wow" factor but managed to be really effective. Porter won't be that high usage, but he could be similarly efficient while being much more impactful on D.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
The Consiglieri
Veteran
Posts: 2,879
And1: 1,053
Joined: May 09, 2007

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#805 » by The Consiglieri » Fri May 24, 2013 7:37 pm

verbal8 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:Maybe Otto Porter is like Brandon Roy- above average at everything but not excellent at anything. Perhaps the lack of zone defenses creates more spacing for Porter. The Calbert Cheaney comparison is interesting but I would point out that Cheaney didn't excel in the NBA because he was a below average 3 point shooter. What will be key for Porter to succeed is knocking down open shots along with getting to the foul line; he might have to improve his handle a bit.


Looking at Calbert Cheaney's college vs. NBA shooting is very strange. He was a very good FT shooter in college(~80%), he was only mediocre in the pros(~70%). He was an amazing 3 point shooter in college. His percentage was similar to Ray Allen and Reggie Miller(only one season of 3 point line). Cheaney made almost 150 college 3 pointers at a 43.8% rate. In the pros he made only 200 NBA 3s and shot them at a 30% rate.

His rookie year he shot 23 3 pointers and missed all but 1. His second year he looked like he was on his way to being a respectable 3 point shooter - 98 made at a 33.9% rate. His 3rd year was a similar rate on 1/2 the volume. Then over the next 15000 minutes of his career he made less than 70 3 pointers.


I use the cal cheaney analogy not because I think there the same or analagous players, Porter is much longer for instance, and plays the 3, whereas Cal was a swing man, playing either the 2 or 3 and quite a bit shorter too. I use the analogy because despite the college basketball player of the year angle (sound familiar? Cheaney was up for that, think he won it), Cheaney didn't project to be an elite NBA player because he wasn't special at any given thing, just good at a ton of things, some of his failures can be attributed to his play statistically falling off in many areas, but it's also applicable in that Cheaney's chief weakness was that he wasn't really elite or great at anything, his good at everything angle dominated the more spotty play of Rose, and Webber etc, but it didnt translate as well to the NBA.

My fear with Porter is that being good at everything means in the end, being great at nothing. Joe Smith had the same issue too, like Cheaney, and if that's how it plays out, then Porter most likely will simply become a plug and play starter that we'll be looking to replace after his contract ends, or a guy were going to be giving a far less than max contract too, something another poster suggested is a great attribute for him and us, but for me, is damning, if you are already admitting that he'll never command a max contract due to his quality, why in hell take him at #3?
dobrojim
RealGM
Posts: 16,981
And1: 4,138
Joined: Sep 16, 2004

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#806 » by dobrojim » Fri May 24, 2013 7:49 pm

likwitdesi wrote:Regarding backup PG options, I don't want a Wolters or Pierre Jackson. Rather than getting one of these marginal 2nd round guys, we have to find a way to get at least a Larkin-level player. We saw what happened with no Wall last season. We need a backup who is at least league average


for the record and in defense of AJ Price, he wasn't nearly as responsible
for 4-28 as some here would imply. Remember he was hurt to and we
had serious dregs playing the 1 and Beal and Ariza were out too.

AJ Price is an adequate backup and would not be a bad choice to bring back.

Maybe Satoransky comes over, maybe not. Maybe he turns out to be decent,
maybe not. But AJ is an adequate backup PG.
A lot of what we call 'thought' is just mental activity

When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression

Those who are convinced of absurdities, can be convinced to commit atrocities
User avatar
Dark Faze
Head Coach
Posts: 6,488
And1: 2,140
Joined: Dec 27, 2008

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#807 » by Dark Faze » Fri May 24, 2013 7:53 pm

Because hitting doubles and triples is a better option that flat out striking out.

There's a difference between being a journeyman who is going to be a nice player that commands a little more than the league average and a guy who is a great player but not a max player. Would Danny Granger command the max right now? Probably not, but he's an extremely effective player.

It's also important to note that a lot of highly touted top 4 picks didn't seem destined to get max player tags when they first came into the league. Harden, Westbrook--two examples of guys who weren't thought of as max guys.

Take a look at this read up of Hardens negatives:

His leaping ability and quickness are only marginal, which forces him into tough and contested drives and makes it hard for him to get by people … Even though he has worked on his drives going right, he is still not nearly as comfortable and effective as he needs to be … Defenders have a much easier time cutting of his driving lanes when he does go right … His midrange game will need to become more polished, his ability to make shots off the dribble before the helpside D rotates will be key … He has become turnover prone at 3.4 per game, but this is mostly a result of being asked to do too much …


Marginal leaping ability and quickness? James Harden? The dude who makes a living splitting double teams and slamming the ball down viciously?

There's much room for Porter to grow. That's not to say Bennett can't, but the risks are higher and he's not comparable to any quality basketball players that play today. 6'7 PF's just haven't worked out, wingspan or no.
User avatar
sfam
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,462
And1: 548
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
         

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#808 » by sfam » Fri May 24, 2013 7:54 pm

Dark Faze wrote:I trade the 2nd rounders and whatever guy they want sans Beal/Wall to get Noel if its a choice between that or Bennett, no doubt.

Can Bennett really prove that he deserves to kick Okafor out of here in a single year? Because Okafor is going to want long term security over money for his final contract, and he'll want to start. There's zero chance Bennett is a starter on day 1 with a healthy Nene/Okafor.

So Bennett will have to share the floor with Seraphin lol.

What if Bennett shows flashes ala Blatche and we end up letting Okafor walk and having a starting lineup of Bennett/Nene.

Bennett is such a big risk to me in terms of the entire spirit of this team. We could literally drop significantly in defensive identity if the move doesn't work out, because its not just about Bennett. Making a choice to get him really kills the chances of keeping Okafor.


All true. Bennett could turn out to be a borderline disaster if he doesn't buy in, starts to pout and loses his confidence. Then again Porter could turn out to be Calbert Cheney, although I agree the chances are lots lower. But what Bennett also gives as a potential future is a dominating offensive game from the front court. Combine that with the ability to block and rock and roll on the fast break, and he could push the Wizards to the upper echelon of the East in a few years. This is something I don't see with Porter. Porter will solidify our place as the 4th or 5th best team, and then we'll need to find another gem to push us higher. I just don't see too many of those chances coming. Bennett, while certainly a risk, gives us a possibility of exceeding our current weight class.
Deivy202
Senior
Posts: 552
And1: 9
Joined: Dec 30, 2012

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#809 » by Deivy202 » Fri May 24, 2013 7:55 pm

I like Noel alot and hope we can get him for his athletic freak skills. How ever if Bennett falls to us than I would be very happy with him . I don't see how we can mess up in this draft the ball is really on our court and I hope Ernie doesn't blow it.

Noel or Bennett for me.
truwizfan4evr
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,924
And1: 642
Joined: Jul 07, 2008
Location: tanking
 

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#810 » by truwizfan4evr » Fri May 24, 2013 7:57 pm

Deivy202 wrote:I like Noel alot and hope we can get him for his athletic freak skills. How ever if Bennett falls to us than I would be very happy with him . I don't see how we can mess up in this draft the ball is really on our court and I hope Ernie doesn't blow it.

Noel or Bennett for me.

Bennet is a bust!
You Shouldn't Play For Money, But You Should Play Because You Have A Passion For It -- Bradley Beal
truwizfan4evr
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,924
And1: 642
Joined: Jul 07, 2008
Location: tanking
 

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#811 » by truwizfan4evr » Fri May 24, 2013 7:58 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:
Deivy202 wrote:I like Noel alot and hope we can get him for his athletic freak skills. How ever if Bennett falls to us than I would be very happy with him . I don't see how we can mess up in this draft the ball is really on our court and I hope Ernie doesn't blow it.

Noel or Bennett for me.

Bennet is a bust!
You Shouldn't Play For Money, But You Should Play Because You Have A Passion For It -- Bradley Beal
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#812 » by fishercob » Fri May 24, 2013 7:59 pm

The Consiglieri wrote:
verbal8 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:Maybe Otto Porter is like Brandon Roy- above average at everything but not excellent at anything. Perhaps the lack of zone defenses creates more spacing for Porter. The Calbert Cheaney comparison is interesting but I would point out that Cheaney didn't excel in the NBA because he was a below average 3 point shooter. What will be key for Porter to succeed is knocking down open shots along with getting to the foul line; he might have to improve his handle a bit.


Looking at Calbert Cheaney's college vs. NBA shooting is very strange. He was a very good FT shooter in college(~80%), he was only mediocre in the pros(~70%). He was an amazing 3 point shooter in college. His percentage was similar to Ray Allen and Reggie Miller(only one season of 3 point line). Cheaney made almost 150 college 3 pointers at a 43.8% rate. In the pros he made only 200 NBA 3s and shot them at a 30% rate.

His rookie year he shot 23 3 pointers and missed all but 1. His second year he looked like he was on his way to being a respectable 3 point shooter - 98 made at a 33.9% rate. His 3rd year was a similar rate on 1/2 the volume. Then over the next 15000 minutes of his career he made less than 70 3 pointers.


I use the cal cheaney analogy not because I think there the same or analagous players, Porter is much longer for instance, and plays the 3, whereas Cal was a swing man, playing either the 2 or 3 and quite a bit shorter too. I use the analogy because despite the college basketball player of the year angle (sound familiar? Cheaney was up for that, think he won it), Cheaney didn't project to be an elite NBA player because he wasn't special at any given thing, just good at a ton of things, some of his failures can be attributed to his play statistically falling off in many areas, but it's also applicable in that Cheaney's chief weakness was that he wasn't really elite or great at anything, his good at everything angle dominated the more spotty play of Rose, and Webber etc, but it didnt translate as well to the NBA.

My fear with Porter is that being good at everything means in the end, being great at nothing. Joe Smith had the same issue too, like Cheaney, and if that's how it plays out, then Porter most likely will simply become a plug and play starter that we'll be looking to replace after his contract ends, or a guy were going to be giving a far less than max contract too, something another poster suggested is a great attribute for him and us, but for me, is damning, if you are already admitting that he'll never command a max contract due to his quality, why in hell take him at #3?


Calbert Cheaney was the opposite of what you say, Tom. He was great at putting the ball in the basket in college (I believe he's still the Big Ten's career scoring leader). His block+steal numbers suggest he was a mediocre defende. His assist/TO ratio was worse than 1/1 for his whole career. He was a scorer who -- for whatever reason -- got to the NBA and couldn't score. There wasn;t much to fall back on.

Don't let the great be the enemy of the good. If Porter is "good at everything", he'll be an excellent NBA player who will help his team win games. It's that simple.

Talking about the size of his second contract is putting the cart way before the horse at this point.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 20,648
And1: 5,257
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#813 » by tontoz » Fri May 24, 2013 8:00 pm

Dark Faze wrote:Because hitting doubles and triples is a better option that flat out striking out.

There's a difference between being a journeyman who is going to be a nice player that commands a little more than the league average and a guy who is a great player but not a max player. Would Danny Granger command the max right now? Probably not, but he's an extremely effective player.

It's also important to note that a lot of highly touted top 4 picks didn't seem destined to get max player tags when they first came into the league. Harden, Westbrook--two examples of guys who weren't thought of as max guys.

Take a look at this read up of Hardens negatives:

His leaping ability and quickness are only marginal, which forces him into tough and contested drives and makes it hard for him to get by people … Even though he has worked on his drives going right, he is still not nearly as comfortable and effective as he needs to be … Defenders have a much easier time cutting of his driving lanes when he does go right … His midrange game will need to become more polished, his ability to make shots off the dribble before the helpside D rotates will be key … He has become turnover prone at 3.4 per game, but this is mostly a result of being asked to do too much …


Marginal leaping ability and quickness? James Harden? The dude who makes a living splitting double teams and slamming the ball down viciously?

There's much room for Porter to grow. That's not to say Bennett can't, but the risks are higher and he's not comparable to any quality basketball players that play today. 6'7 PF's just haven't worked out, wingspan or no.



Randolph, Marion, Barkley, Buck Williams, LJ, Dantley, Aquire and that is just off the top of my head.

Millsap is 6'6" w/o shoes with only a 32.5" vert but has done well.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD
User avatar
sfam
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,462
And1: 548
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
         

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#814 » by sfam » Fri May 24, 2013 8:05 pm

dobrojim wrote:
likwitdesi wrote:Regarding backup PG options, I don't want a Wolters or Pierre Jackson. Rather than getting one of these marginal 2nd round guys, we have to find a way to get at least a Larkin-level player. We saw what happened with no Wall last season. We need a backup who is at least league average


for the record and in defense of AJ Price, he wasn't nearly as responsible
for 4-28 as some here would imply. Remember he was hurt to and we
had serious dregs playing the 1 and Beal and Ariza were out too.

AJ Price is an adequate backup and would not be a bad choice to bring back.

Maybe Satoransky comes over, maybe not. Maybe he turns out to be decent,
maybe not. But AJ is an adequate backup PG.

I disagree. AJ was decent at times, but I feel like he flat out sucked at others. He just doesn't cut it if Wall goes out for any length of time. I like him over Temple - I think he makes a nice 5th guard to sub in for injuries. But I would really like an upgrade at PG to back up Wall.
User avatar
Dark Faze
Head Coach
Posts: 6,488
And1: 2,140
Joined: Dec 27, 2008

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#815 » by Dark Faze » Fri May 24, 2013 8:11 pm

Randolph was a pure PF post guy who didn't figure out how to play winning basketball until his career was nearly over.

Marion is an SF that can play some PF.

Barkley was a tweener, but different era.

LJ, different era.

Those guys could use their strength a lot easier on defense due to hand checking. That's part of why tweeners are so bad in todays NBA, their strengths are killed on defense without handchecking and they have to rely on foot speed.
fishercob
RealGM
Posts: 13,922
And1: 1,571
Joined: Apr 25, 2002
Location: Tenleytown, DC

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#816 » by fishercob » Fri May 24, 2013 8:12 pm

tontoz wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
There's much room for Porter to grow. That's not to say Bennett can't, but the risks are higher and he's not comparable to any quality basketball players that play today. 6'7 PF's just haven't worked out, wingspan or no.



Randolph, Marion, Barkley, Buck Williams, LJ, Dantley, Aquire and that is just off the top of my head.

Millsap is 6'6" w/o shoes with only a 32.5" vert but has done well.


Zach is 6'9. Marion was an offensive role player and a defensive and rebounding ace in his price. No one else you mention have played in the last 15 years and the NBA has changed considerably.

There are very few examples in today's NBA of really good 4's with Bennett's physical profile. That's not to say he's incapable of succeeding, but it certainly makes you have to squint harder to envision it.
"Some people have a way with words....some people....not have way."
— Steve Martin
truwizfan4evr
Assistant Coach
Posts: 3,924
And1: 642
Joined: Jul 07, 2008
Location: tanking
 

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#817 » by truwizfan4evr » Fri May 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Is Bennett even 6 feet 8? At the hoop summit he was listen to be around 6 feet 7 witch is really undersize.
You Shouldn't Play For Money, But You Should Play Because You Have A Passion For It -- Bradley Beal
User avatar
Dark Faze
Head Coach
Posts: 6,488
And1: 2,140
Joined: Dec 27, 2008

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#818 » by Dark Faze » Fri May 24, 2013 8:18 pm

truwizfan4evr wrote:Is Bennett even 6 feet 8? At the hoop summit he was listen to be around 6 feet 7 witch is really undersize.


I can't imagine that he wouldn't measure if he could be 6'8 in shoes with the sort of wingspan he boasts. It would have helped his stock a ton. He didn't measure though so he's likely still 6'7.
Dat2U
RealGM
Posts: 24,183
And1: 7,974
Joined: Jun 23, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
       

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#819 » by Dat2U » Fri May 24, 2013 8:23 pm

Deeptu McPullup wrote:A couple of years from now, Booker and the 37th will make about as much difference to our playoff aspirations as what your neighbor had for dinner last night.

If you want Noels and all you give them is Booker and the 37th, you do it. It'll either be a good trade or a bad trade based on what Nerlens does in comparison to what you'd have gotten out of the third pick. Booker and the 37th is inconsequential to these sorts of decisions.


Amen bro, couldn't have been said any better.

Booker is likely gone after next season and I can live w/o drafting the next Satoransky.
User avatar
tontoz
RealGM
Posts: 20,648
And1: 5,257
Joined: Apr 11, 2005

Re: Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part V 

Post#820 » by tontoz » Fri May 24, 2013 8:24 pm

fishercob wrote:
tontoz wrote:
Dark Faze wrote:
There's much room for Porter to grow. That's not to say Bennett can't, but the risks are higher and he's not comparable to any quality basketball players that play today. 6'7 PF's just haven't worked out, wingspan or no.



Randolph, Marion, Barkley, Buck Williams, LJ, Dantley, Aquire and that is just off the top of my head.

Millsap is 6'6" w/o shoes with only a 32.5" vert but has done well.


Zach is 6'9. Marion was an offensive role player and a defensive and rebounding ace in his price. No one else you mention have played in the last 15 years and the NBA has changed considerably.

There are very few examples in today's NBA of really good 4's with Bennett's physical profile. That's not to say he's incapable of succeeding, but it certainly makes you have to squint harder to envision it.



So are you trying to say that NBA listed heights are accurate? Excuse me while i :roll:

There are plenty of guys (like Millsap and Josh Smith) who are listed 2" above their actual height w/o shoes, and i don't think they are playing in heels.

There haven't been many players in general with Bennett's size/abilities. People point to Beasley (head case playing out of position) and DWill (slower also spending a lot of time out of position) but neither of those guys took it to the basket like Bennett.
"bulky agile perimeter bone crunch pick setting draymond green" WizD

Return to Washington Wizards