Arenas Traded for Rashard Lewis

[hands11]

And I thought we had to go to the beginning of the thread to find some laughs.

Chalk one up for Ted and EG.

Orlando can still benefit from this but that is a separate evaluation.

Ted/EG did well for the Wizards vs keeping Gil. That is all that matter to them.

We have already benefited while Orlando is let with the a ticking time bomb that could go off an any moment. We lived it. Now it is their problem to worry about.

Hands down the WIzards did well in this move.

[leswizards]

I am beginning to believe that Rashard Lewis' play means that we should fully expect his final year to be fully guaranteed. In fact, the cynic in me believes that Rashard's good play in Washington and the possibility that he might be bought for only $10 million if he fails to meet certain conditions is somewhat related. Regardless, I still think this was a good move for the Wizards.

[leswizards]

Except for the fact that you are not taking into account every other possibility. I'm not saying that an expiring contract in 2013 isn't better than Arenas with 2 years/$43M. I'm saying that it probably isn't better than a handful of other possibilities that would have presented themselves.

An expiring contract in 2013 is pretty close to zero value in 2011. Two years is a long time in the NBA and a long time for a team that has been dismal for 3 seasons now.

Let me ax you dis, so I may understand your position. Do you feel that even if Gil does not regain his old form, this was a bad trade for the Wizards? Or do you feel that if Gil never regains his old form, then this was a pretty good deal for the Wizards.

[hands11]

Except for the fact that you are not taking into account every other possibility. I'm not saying that an expiring contract in 2013 isn't better than Arenas with 2 years/$43M. I'm saying that it probably isn't better than a handful of other possibilities that would have presented themselves.

An expiring contract in 2013 is pretty close to zero value in 2011. Two years is a long time in the NBA and a long time for a team that has been dismal for 3 seasons now.

Let me ax you dis, so I may understand your position. Do you feel that even if Gil does not regain his old form, this was a bad trade for the Wizards? Or do you feel that if Gil never regains his old form, then this was a pretty good deal for the Wizards.

And to some of us, it doesn't even really matter that much.

Gil didn't want to be here.
Gil is a low percentage shooter who never played or produced in a structured offense
Gil was an AI type. A tweaner.
Gil was over paid for someone who isn't a leader and a strange unpredictable dude
Gil was a PG. Well, kind of. He was a SG/PG. We just drafted the #1 at PG
Gil would not be the person I want around Wall
Gil has a bad wheel and his game was based on ball in hand and driving to set up he outside shot.

Hey, I wanted to see him balln here this year so it's not like I hate on the dude even though he pissed me off and let the team down by his own actions and choices. But I get he had a messed up family thing. I know that can mess with a persons mind.

But, I also called his Gil stuff for what it was even when he was totally balln. I said then it was fools gold and that he needed to change his game and his ways and even if he did, he still wasn't worth that kind of cash. So now that he is gone, I have no problem with it at all. I like Lewis as a players and leader on this team. Much better than I liked Gil. But that is easy for me because I never really drank the Gil Kool-aid.

[Zonkerbl]

Well, that's a little bit ott. Gil was a low percentage shooter because he shot (and made) a lot of threes, more than other superstars. Hands is saying Gil wasn't a franchise player but there are a lot more max contract players than there are franchise players. When Gil was playing without arthritis he was earning his contract.

But face it, Gil is done. He was never any good defensively before his arthritis flared up in his knees and now he's just a somewhat decent shooter who can't drive or play defense. Good trade.

[hands11]

He was fun to watch when he got hot from range. LOOOONG RANGE. Then complimented by some nice drives.

I think my favorite year here was his second. He seemed like a nice young man back then. Humble. Just coming into his own.

[hands11]

Well, that's a little bit ott. Gil was a low percentage shooter because he shot (and made) a lot of threes, more than other superstars. Hands is saying Gil wasn't a franchise player but there are a lot more max contract players than there are franchise players. When Gil was playing without arthritis he was earning his contract.

But face it, Gil is done. He was never any good defensively before his arthritis flared up in his knees and now he's just a somewhat decent shooter who can't drive or play defense. Good trade.

I would disagree. I never thought he was a max contract player nor worth the money of one. Not even at his peak. I thought what he was getting paid before his new contract was fair. 12, 13M was more than fair for no D, no leadership, none system who was flaky.

[sashae]

Gilbert Arenas said on Friday that his knee's comfort level and flexion fluctuates daily, depending on the weather conditions.

Arenas was felling great on Friday in Chicago, but it felt awful on Wednesday in Indianapolis.

"Really high humidity and places that's cold, it gets in my joints," Arenas said. "You know how they say, 'I know when it's going to rain'? Well, I know when it's raining.

"In Indiana, it was bad. The joint swells, so it stays stiff, so I can't really get the flexion that I need. But as soon as we landed here, it was fine."

Orlando coach Stan Van Gundy said he thinks Arenas' knee will "correct over time, but it'll take some time."

-- Orlando Sentinel

[JonathanJoseph]

JJ, I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge the financial advantages. You are being intellectually dishonest with yourself.

It's very simple. Rashard's contract will be $11M less than Arenas' contract in 2012. It's the difference between having $15M in cap room and $4M in cap room (given some reasonable assumptions: Young getting $6M a year, McGee's cap hold is charged to the cap, and no significant acquisitions next year).

I get that it is less total dollars, I'm not disputing that. I'm suggesting that the benefit does not kick in until 2012-2013 at which point Lewis still counts $10M against a salary cap. That means Lewis contract BECOMES an asset likely around the 2013 trade deadline but will likely remain a problem before that. And to be blunt, cap flexibility 2+ years out is a LONG time in NBA terms.

That is definitely better than Arenas' contract, but that's not really the comparison I'm trying to make. The comparison should be Lewis contract versus the other options we would have had should Grunfeld not have pulled the trigger on the first possible Arenas trade.

I believe strongly that the Wizards would have been able to get significantly better cap flexibility had they been more patient. Again, it seems bizarre to me to trade for the single worst contract in the NBA and then talk about how the trade was financially prudent. It's like the saying that you are the least fat kid at fat kid camp.

[JonathanJoseph]

Except for the fact that you are not taking into account every other possibility. I'm not saying that an expiring contract in 2013 isn't better than Arenas with 2 years/$43M. I'm saying that it probably isn't better than a handful of other possibilities that would have presented themselves.

An expiring contract in 2013 is pretty close to zero value in 2011. Two years is a long time in the NBA and a long time for a team that has been dismal for 3 seasons now.

Let me ax you dis, so I may understand your position. Do you feel that even if Gil does not regain his old form, this was a bad trade for the Wizards? Or do you feel that if Gil never regains his old form, then this was a pretty good deal for the Wizards.

Let's put context around this. I strongly doubt that Arenas will ever be the 2004-2007 Arenas again, but I do believe that Arenas will find his stroke and get in shape and be the player he was in 09 before gun-gate (18.8 PER). If that happens, this is a disaster of a trade. Because that Arenas has plenty of trade value.

If Arenas never becomes more than the mediocre player he is today, then the Wizards were hosed either way and they got a slightly better but still bad contract in return.

The point being, we don't yet know which outcome will occur, but the Wizards played their first possible hand and "sold low". Poor strategy, poor negotiating, poor execution and needing luck to ensure something better than a poor result.

[nate33]

JJ, I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge the financial advantages. You are being intellectually dishonest with yourself.

It's very simple. Rashard's contract will be $11M less than Arenas' contract in 2012. It's the difference between having $15M in cap room and $4M in cap room (given some reasonable assumptions: Young getting $6M a year, McGee's cap hold is charged to the cap, and no significant acquisitions next year).

I get that it is less total dollars, I'm not disputing that. I'm suggesting that the benefit does not kick in until 2012-2013 at which point Lewis still counts $10M against a salary cap. That means Lewis contract BECOMES an asset likely around the 2013 trade deadline but will likely remain a problem before that. And to be blunt, cap flexibility 2+ years out is a LONG time in NBA terms.

That is definitely better than Arenas' contract, but that's not really the comparison I'm trying to make. The comparison should be Lewis contract versus the other options we would have had should Grunfeld not have pulled the trigger on the first possible Arenas trade.

I believe strongly that the Wizards would have been able to get significantly better cap flexibility had they been more patient. Again, it seems bizarre to me to trade for the single worst contract in the NBA and then talk about how the trade was financially prudent. It's like the saying that you are the least fat kid at fat kid camp.

Fair enough. At least you acknowledge that Lewis' contract is better.

I think you are delusional if you think Arenas would have been worth more if we were patient. If anything, Arenas' value is dropping by the day. I guarantee you that if Orlando wanted to trade him now, they'd do a lot worse than Rashard Lewis. You have to realize that there weren't very many potential suitors. Only a contender would want him, and only a deep-pocketed contender would take on his salary with a new CBA looming. That pretty much leaves only Orlando, Dallas and L.A. And L.A. isn't desperate enough to take on his salary.

[JonathanJoseph]

Fair enough. At least you acknowledge that Lewis' contract is better.

I think you are delusional if you think Arenas would have been worth more if we were patient. If anything, Arenas' value is dropping by the day. I guarantee you that if Orlando wanted to trade him now, they'd do a lot worse than Rashard Lewis. You have to realize that there weren't very many potential suitors. Only a contender would want him, and only a deep-pocketed contender would take on his salary with a new CBA looming. That pretty much leaves only Orlando, Dallas and L.A. And L.A. isn't desperate enough to take on his salary.

Perhaps I am delusional.

But your scenario takes the relative values TODAY into account and I'm thinking long term, as is Orlando GM Otis Smith. Smith himself has been quoted as saying he only wants to see "flashes" now and expects better play towards the playoffs. So your scenario where Orlando would want to trade Arenas today isn't a fair or realistic one.

If the relative trade values TODAY were relevant, than yes the trade would be a no-brainer win for the Wizards. But it's not, it's only relevant in 12-13 when Rashard Lewis becomes an asset rather than a liability.

Lewis is guaranteed to be a liability until then. Arenas MIGHT be a liability until then.

[tontoz]

Fair enough. At least you acknowledge that Lewis' contract is better.

I think you are delusional if you think Arenas would have been worth more if we were patient. If anything, Arenas' value is dropping by the day. I guarantee you that if Orlando wanted to trade him now, they'd do a lot worse than Rashard Lewis. You have to realize that there weren't very many potential suitors. Only a contender would want him, and only a deep-pocketed contender would take on his salary with a new CBA looming. That pretty much leaves only Orlando, Dallas and L.A. And L.A. isn't desperate enough to take on his salary.

Perhaps I am delusional.

But your scenario takes the relative values TODAY into account and I'm thinking long term, as is Orlando GM Otis Smith. Smith himself has been quoted as saying he only wants to see "flashes" now and expects better play towards the playoffs. So your scenario where Orlando would want to trade Arenas today isn't a fair or realistic one.

If the relative trade values TODAY were relevant, than yes the trade would be a no-brainer win for the Wizards. But it's not, it's only relevant in 12-13 when Rashard Lewis becomes an asset rather than a liability.

Lewis is guaranteed to be a liability until then. Arenas MIGHT be a liability until then.

How do you figure? Rashard is easily a better player than Arenas and there is no evidence that will change. Arenas is nothing but a lousy backup right now. If Arenas was here he would definitely be a liability. Rashard is definitely not a liability. He has been the second best player on the team since the trade.

[JonathanJoseph]

Fair enough. At least you acknowledge that Lewis' contract is better.

I think you are delusional if you think Arenas would have been worth more if we were patient. If anything, Arenas' value is dropping by the day. I guarantee you that if Orlando wanted to trade him now, they'd do a lot worse than Rashard Lewis. You have to realize that there weren't very many potential suitors. Only a contender would want him, and only a deep-pocketed contender would take on his salary with a new CBA looming. That pretty much leaves only Orlando, Dallas and L.A. And L.A. isn't desperate enough to take on his salary.

Perhaps I am delusional.

But your scenario takes the relative values TODAY into account and I'm thinking long term, as is Orlando GM Otis Smith. Smith himself has been quoted as saying he only wants to see "flashes" now and expects better play towards the playoffs. So your scenario where Orlando would want to trade Arenas today isn't a fair or realistic one.

If the relative trade values TODAY were relevant, than yes the trade would be a no-brainer win for the Wizards. But it's not, it's only relevant in 12-13 when Rashard Lewis becomes an asset rather than a liability.

Lewis is guaranteed to be a liability until then. Arenas MIGHT be a liability until then.

How do you figure? Rashard is easily a better player than Arenas and there is no evidence that will change. Arenas is nothing but a lousy backup right now. If Arenas was here he would definitely be a liability. Rashard is definitely not a liability. He has been the second best player on the team since the trade.

As you know quite well, a players talent is irrelevant outside of the context of his salary, and since Lewis is paid significantly more than Arenas he would need to be a lot better than the 2nd best player on a terrible team to be remotely worth his value of his contract.

Also, your claim that there is "no evidence" that Arenas play will improve is silly at best. His career averages would provide plenty of evidence that Arenas isncapable of playing better than he is currently.

[tontoz]

As you know quite well, a players talent is irrelevant outside of the context of his salary, and since Lewis is paid significantly more than Arenas he would need to be a lot better than the 2nd best player on a terrible team to be remotely worth his value of his contract.

Also, your claim that there is "no evidence" that Arenas play will improve is silly at best. His career averages would provide plenty of evidence that Arenas isncapable of playing better than he is currently.

Rashard is paid only $3 million more than Arenas this year and that amount is insignificant since it isnt like they would put that money to use anyway.

It isn't a question of whether Rashard is worth his contract. He is worth much more to this team than Arenas. Arenas would be overpaid at $5 million a year.

Arenas' career numbers are irrelevant. Right now his knee pain changes with the weather. That wasn't the case when he was averaging 29 ppg.

[JonathanJoseph]

As you know quite well, a players talent is irrelevant outside of the context of his salary, and since Lewis is paid significantly more than Arenas he would need to be a lot better than the 2nd best player on a terrible team to be remotely worth his value of his contract.

Also, your claim that there is "no evidence" that Arenas play will improve is silly at best. His career averages would provide plenty of evidence that Arenas isncapable of playing better than he is currently.

Rashard is paid only $3 million more than Arenas this year and that amount is insignificant since it isnt like they would put that money to use anyway.

It isn't a question of whether Rashard is worth his contract. He is worth much more to this team than Arenas. Arenas would be overpaid at $5 million a year.

Arenas' career numbers are irrelevant. Right now his knee pain changes with the weather. That wasn't the case when he was averaging 29 ppg.

That response is beyond silly in both principle and content.

[tontoz]

As you know quite well, a players talent is irrelevant outside of the context of his salary, and since Lewis is paid significantly more than Arenas he would need to be a lot better than the 2nd best player on a terrible team to be remotely worth his value of his contract.

Also, your claim that there is "no evidence" that Arenas play will improve is silly at best. His career averages would provide plenty of evidence that Arenas isncapable of playing better than he is currently.

Rashard is paid only $3 million more than Arenas this year and that amount is insignificant since it isnt like they would put that money to use anyway.

It isn't a question of whether Rashard is worth his contract. He is worth much more to this team than Arenas. Arenas would be overpaid at $5 million a year.

Arenas' career numbers are irrelevant. Right now his knee pain changes with the weather. That wasn't the case when he was averaging 29 ppg.

That response is beyond silly in both principle and content.

LOL u just can't handle the fact that you can't refute it. You have nothing supporting your position other than speculation and wishful thinking. Absolutely nothing.

A 3 million dollar difference doesn't mean squat when the contracts are over $15 million, especially when the trade happens in midseason. It isn't they would use that 3 million to sign someone in the middle of the season. Duh

And of course over the life of the contract Rashard is far cheaper than Arenas.

Rashard's value to the team > than Arenas' value to the team. It isn't even debatable.

[JonathanJoseph]

LOL u just can't handle the fact that you can't refute it. You have nothing supporting your position other than speculation and wishful thinking. Absolutely nothing.

A 3 million dollar difference doesn't mean squat when the contracts are over $15 million, especially when the trade happens in midseason. It isn't they would use that 3 million to sign someone in the middle of the season. Duh

And of course over the life of the contract Rashard is far cheaper than Arenas.

Rashard's value to the team > than Arenas' value to the team. It isn't even debatable.

Um....yeah. I just can't handle it. I'm about to crack under the pressure.

And no, I'm not going to bother to respond to someone who uses elementary school superlatives and absolutes and thinks that the size of the contract isn't relevant to an NBA trade.

[willbcocks]

I don't really understand your argument based on the contracts JJ--Arenas is a liability now and Lewis is a liability now, but slightly bigger. That we get. But Arenas will be a liability for 1.5 years more than Lewis (1/2 a year when we cut Lewis and are only on the hook for 10 million).

I don't think anyone thought Arenas's play would improve to the point where we'd get positive value, since at his contract in today's NBA, that would require a miracle. The best we were talking about is expiring contracts.

Clearly there were unlikely to be other offers this year. The contract is too long, the lockout is looming, and our teams record was going to remain terrible. In 2 years, Lewis can be bought out for 10 mil, so he's better than a contract that expires in 2013. So the best case, and really only decent scenario, is that we are able to trade Gil next year for contracts that expire in 2012. This would save us a hefty 10 million in cap space.

But there are a lot of risks. Gil could get injured. There could be a lockout, in which case we're immediately worse off with Gil than Shard. Wall and Gil could continue to play poorly together and the lockerroom could suffer, not because of Gil's antics, but because everyone knows that Gil doesn't fit with the young rebuilding team and is only here temporarily.

Having another 10 mil in capspace would have been nice. But the possibility of the lockout and the buyout clause in Lewis' contract put the financials way in favor of his contract. On top of that Gil-Wall looked terrible out there together and the general situation wasn't working for everyone.

That Rashard's play and presence have been unexpectedly positive only makes the trade better for us.

[hands11]

JJ, you just got TKO'd brother.

Your arguments were not holding water. How can you not see that.

He must still be punch drunk and doesn't realize it.

Tangible and intangible, the trade was good/great for the Wizards. Orlando was the only place to dump him and it was because of a personal relationship. Weather changing knee. Still in the middle of drama...we had our fill of the Gil drama, thank you very much..and he didn't want to be here anyway.

Lewis is like winning the lottery compared to still having Gil here.

That said, I hope Gils knee heals, he learns to play some D and in a system and he gets his life in order and has a wonderful career.

God I'm glad these are not the Wizards problems anymore.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/reliable-source/2011/01/rs-_arenas_1.html

So is one of kids Shaq's ?