Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[Lazy10]

John Wall used to be top 5 PG, after this season he has fallen off. He might be back to his regular self again

[nate33]

John Wall used to be top 5 PG, after this season he has fallen off. He might be back to his regular self again

He was in the conversation for top 5 last year, but just barely. And certainly outside the top 3. I agree with PIF that it is unlikely that he'll have a peak significantly higher than it is right now. Wall is at his peak, more or less. He just can't shoot well enough to move up from here.

[Kanyewest]

I can't or won't argue that Wall is a top 5 point guard because the Wiz did in fact miss the playoffs .

Yep, no top 5 PGs this year missed the playoffs. Not Curry, Westbrook, Parker, Paul or the next tier Thomas, Teague, Lowry, Irving, Lillard, etc.

That's 9 "top 5" point guards followed by an "etc." !!

So, you are right to argue that Wall isn't a top 5 PG THIS year. But next year... that will be a different story. Wall is going to buck the odds and make the jump next year.

You know... if you're able to see the future, don't waste your time on this Board, man! Spend your time becoming a billionaire by stocks that are going to go up by an order of magnitude next year!

Later this year, John Wall will start his 7th season in the NBA. He's played @ 17,000 minutes. As points of comparison, Rajon Rondo has played @5000 more minutes than Wall, and Chris Paul has played @11,000 more minutes than John Wall.

John Wall is a veteran entering his 7th season; he's well into the 2d half of his career. He's not a developing young player and not likely to change much.

Wall is going to have to put the work in. It could happen but it is far from a certainty. Lowry came into this season with around 17,000 regular season minutes and improved significantly, but he also lost a great deal of weight during the off season. Maybe Wall can improve his fitness, improve his shot, or give up hot chocolate.

[dckingsfan]

I can't or won't argue that Wall is a top 5 point guard because the Wiz did in fact miss the playoffs .

Yep, no top 5 PGs this year missed the playoffs. Not Curry, Westbrook, Parker, Paul or the next tier Thomas, Teague, Lowry, Irving, Lillard, etc.

That's 9 "top 5" point guards followed by an "etc." !!

So, you are right to argue that Wall isn't a top 5 PG THIS year. But next year... that will be a different story. Wall is going to buck the odds and make the jump next year.

You know... if you're able to see the future, don't waste your time on this Board, man! Spend your time becoming a billionaire by stocks that are going to go up by an order of magnitude next year!

Later this year, John Wall will start his 7th season in the NBA. He's played @ 17,000 minutes. As points of comparison, Rajon Rondo has played @5000 more minutes than Wall, and Chris Paul has played @11,000 more minutes than John Wall.

John Wall is a veteran entering his 7th season; he's well into the 2d half of his career. He's not a developing young player and not likely to change much.

I stand by my fanatic prediction - this year Wall becomes the top PG in the east.
If he doesn't we will suck - so I have to predict something

[DCZards]

Dub post.

[dckingsfan]

John Wall used to be top 5 PG, after this season he has fallen off. He might be back to his regular self again

He was in the conversation for top 5 last year, but just barely. And certainly outside the top 3. I agree with PIF that it is unlikely that he'll have a peak significantly higher than it is right now. Wall is at his peak, more or less. He just can't shoot well enough to move up from here.

YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE!

[DCZards]

I believe Wall's play can also be improved by having a coach who holds him accountable for his often bad shot selection and careless turnovers.

A coach who will get on Wall for his penchant to kick it out to shooters after penetrating to a point where he'd probably either have an easy layup or be fouled.

[LyricalRico]

I believe Wall's play can also be improved by having a coach who holds him accountable for his often bad shot selection and careless turnovers.

Agreed. Witt-less stated publicly several times that he doesn't discourage long 2's, so hopefully Brooks will have a more modern approach. And both Wall and Beal have to somehow get more locked in. Kip Sheeman on 980 (inside joke for littles) often called them "too cool for school", no urgency or intensity on a nightly basis. We know Wall can take over games when he wants to, and we've seen Beal be a star in the playoffs. If Brooks can just get them to do that all the time it'll be a huge step forward.

[TheSecretWeapon]

This season, b-r lists 41 players as PGs with at least 1500 total minutes. Among those 41, Wall...

- 6th highest usage rate -- 31st in offensive rating
- 7th in 2pt FGA -- 33rd in 2pt FG%
- 5th in assists per 100 team possessions -- 39th in turnovers per 100T

He ranked 10th in FGA, but 36th in "extra field points" (a stat that measures shooting effectiveness vs. league average).

Among this group of 41 PGs, he was:
- 24th in FT%
- 36th in extra field points (a measure of shooting effectiveness compared to league average)
- 3rd most zero point possessions per 100 team possessions

On the positive side, he was 2nd in blocks, 9th in rebounding, 10th in steals, and he committed the 3rd fewest fouls. Overall, he continued to rate as one of the top defensive PGs this season despite some lackadaisical moments and games.

He does a lot of things well, but the combination of high usage and unchecked inefficiency kneecaps his overall productivity and undercuts the team's chances of winning.

[tontoz]

Wall's playoff performances don't help his case. Career 37.6% shooting in the playoffs.

[payitforward]

John Wall used to be top 5 PG, after this season he has fallen off. He might be back to his regular self again

He was in the conversation for top 5 last year, but just barely. And certainly outside the top 3. I agree with PIF that it is unlikely that he'll have a peak significantly higher than it is right now. Wall is at his peak, more or less. He just can't shoot well enough to move up from here.

In 2014-15, WP48 put him at # 8. If you only include guys who played more than 1450, he ranked #5.

He was nowhere near the top 3, as you say. Still, 2014-15 was his best year.

This year he slid a bit, mostly because he had career high turnovers and took too many shots. He was more effective last year because he took 3.6 fewer shots per 48 minutes and only scored 2.8 fewer points on them.

Wall's 3d year in the league, he took only 1.3 3 point attempts per 48, but he got to the line 9 times. His points per shot have been going down every year since then, because he doesn't get to the line nearly as often. The delta between his eFG% and TS% in his 3d year was 7.2 percentage points. This year is was 5.8 percentage points.

So, IMO, the way for him to improve is to shoot less. I'm not as worried about his 3 point attempts as I am about his 2 point attempts. He takes way too many 2 point jump shots. He needs other people who can shoot, and he needs to drive the basket more often if he is to still get a bit better. And/or to cut down his TOs.

[barelyawake]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

[tontoz]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

[barelyawake]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

Not excuses. Wall should be a leader. Wall should shoot better. The way to heal the team is to have an iso scorer who will convert more than our team does; can lead where Wall can't; can relied on to force and make shots where Wall can't; and will allow Wall to focus on defense. Give Wall a KG and a Ray Allen and you give the setting for Wall to shine. Otherwise, you are asking him to do that which he obviously can't do.

[payitforward]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

Two common forms of homer bs:

If only John Wall were in the perfect situation, the way all other players are, he would be so much better.

If you don't count the things he does badly (whatever the poster chooses) -- which only happen because of x, y or z, so you shouldn't count them -- you can see how great he is.

The first is silly on the face of it. The second could be said about any player in the NBA.

[payitforward]

John Wall is a very very good NBA player. But he's not a top-5 point guard, and he's not a superstar. Still, he is very very good. And maybe he can get a little better -- why deny him that opportunity to improve a bit? But that doesn't mean he's a top 5 point guard or that he will be even if he does improve some.

[nate33]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

There are 5 positions on the basketball court, so a total of 25 players in the league who are top 5 at their position. There are 30 teams in the league. It is therefore somewhat unlikely for a top 5 player at his position to have an elite teammate.

A top 5 player at his position should not expect to play alongside another elite player for him to reach his potential. If that's what it takes, then that "top 5 player" really isn't a top 5 player.

Does Kyle Lowry have a legit, prime star scorer as a teammate? Does Damian Lillard? Did Chris Paul while Griffin was out?

[barelyawake]

Rondo was never an MVP caliber player alone. But, there were many articles that were written claiming he should be an MVP candidate because of the teammates he had who converted his passes. As a non-leader, pass first, defensive player, you can look to Rondo to see what Wall can accomplish on the right team. Last word on the topic.

[tontoz]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

Not excuses. Wall should be a leader. Wall should shoot better. The way to heal the team is to have an iso scorer who will convert more than our team does; can lead where Wall can't; can relied on to force and make shots where Wall can't; and will allow Wall to focus on defense. Give Wall a KG and a Ray Allen and you give the setting for Wall to shine. Otherwise, you are asking him to do that which he obviously can't do.

Nonsense. Nobody is asking Wall to bring the ball up the court and shoot a pullup j without anyone touching the ball. Nobody is asking Wall to jump to throw a pass when he doesn't even know who he is passing to.

[payitforward]

More excuses. Wall takes too many shots, by far the most on the team, even though he shoots poorly. He routinely takes pullup jumpers without anyone else touching the ball. And he has way too many careless turnovers.

Not excuses. Wall should be a leader. Wall should shoot better. The way to heal the team is to have an iso scorer who will convert more than our team does; can lead where Wall can't; can relied on to force and make shots where Wall can't; and will allow Wall to focus on defense. Give Wall a KG and a Ray Allen and you give the setting for Wall to shine. Otherwise, you are asking him to do that which he obviously can't do.

Nonsense. Nobody is asking Wall to bring the ball up the court and shoot a pullup j without anyone touching the ball. Nobody is asking Wall to jump to throw a pass when he doesn't even know who he is passing to.

I think I'm starting to follow what Barely Awake is trying to argue. If I'm correct, Barely, you are saying that we should view John Wall on the model of Rajon Rondo, i.e. that he's at his best when he plays in *that* mold, not the one he currently plays in. Do i have that right?

In which case, you're also saying that Rondo needed guys like KG and Ray Allen to be in a position where he showed how terrific he could be. Put Wall in a similar situation and you'll see him shine.

The only problem with that POV is that Rondo just had one of his better seasons, and he was on a bad team that didn't surround him w/ those kinds of players. He was also a little better in '09-10 (when Garnett, Pierce and Allen all had off years) than in '10-11 (when all 3 of them bounced back).

Above all, in the first part of 2014-15, when the Celtics were a transitional team without KG, Ray Allen or Paul Pierce -- and were about to trade him -- Rondo put up some of the best numbers of his career.

IOW, I can't see how your argument about Wall holds water, sorry.