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Political Roundtable Part XXV

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#821 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:05 pm

daoneandonly wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Ruzious wrote:... than the fact that Russians f'd with our elections, and nothings being done to stop that from happening again. Having fair elections is kinda important for a democracy, or does anybody care?

Sorry to cherry pick - but this.

Agree, but Maryland and many many other liberal states aren't exactly playing fair by not enforcing showing your ID when going to the vote, it's a joke. We're going through these hassles now with the new RealID mandate, and still, you don't need an ID to vote, just repeat a few notes like name, birthdate, and address, and walk right through.

Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#822 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:15 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Sorry to cherry pick - but this.

Agree, but Maryland and many many other liberal states aren't exactly playing fair by not enforcing showing your ID when going to the vote, it's a joke. We're going through these hassles now with the new RealID mandate, and still, you don't need an ID to vote, just repeat a few notes like name, birthdate, and address, and walk right through.

Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.

Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#823 » by daoneandonly » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:23 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Agree, but Maryland and many many other liberal states aren't exactly playing fair by not enforcing showing your ID when going to the vote, it's a joke. We're going through these hassles now with the new RealID mandate, and still, you don't need an ID to vote, just repeat a few notes like name, birthdate, and address, and walk right through.

Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.

Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.


Yes, ads here and there dont determine an election, thats a inaccurate notion and claim drummed up by Hillary's camp on why she lost.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#824 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:40 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Agree, but Maryland and many many other liberal states aren't exactly playing fair by not enforcing showing your ID when going to the vote, it's a joke. We're going through these hassles now with the new RealID mandate, and still, you don't need an ID to vote, just repeat a few notes like name, birthdate, and address, and walk right through.

Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.

Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.

Wait - decided - where did you make that leap from my comments? But we should ALWAYS quash any interference.

And voter fraud is deciding elections?

Come on Nate - that can't be your best shot on this one?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#825 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:57 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.

Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.

Wait - decided - where did you make that leap from my comments? But we should ALWAYS quash any interference.

And voter fraud is deciding elections?

Come on Nate - that can't be your best shot on this one?

What voter fraud? Other than illegal immigrants voting, of course.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#826 » by FAH1223 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:05 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#827 » by montestewart » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:07 pm

To me, a most interesting discussion right now would be how the release of the report's findings, and its spin by the two parties, will effect the 2020 elections. Independents (particularly those who read beyond headlines) may not have a drastically changed opinion of Trump, but they could still see this as a telling defeat of the Democratic party and swing Republican as a result. Many liberal independents urged less focus on the collusion angle, and could again abandon the Democratic party, particularly if they see defeat as inevitable anyway. That could fuel a large Republican victory.

On the other hand, this somewhat has a look similar to the overzealous prosecution of the Duke lacrosse team, where the "squeaky clean" team was shown to have thrown a party with stripper prostitutes servicing the squad in a frat house covered in plastic to protect from the sex and alcohol fueled mess (Krzyzewski worked hard to distance his team from such barely disputed characterizations). In both cases, in other words, there was not enough evidence for the investigating parties to proceed with prosecution, but for those looking at the facts (rather than a desired conclusion), no one is coming out smelling like a rose either.

Welcome back Nate and daoneandonly!

Everyone to your corners and come out swinging.

No cussing or personal attacks from either side, please.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#828 » by stilldropin20 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:11 pm

13 trolls in a basement. 50k in facebook ads.

the metaphor would be a single sprinkle of brown sugar in a cake mix with 2 cups of white sugar. no effect at all on the actual election.

let me ask you a libs and conservatives a question i already know the answer....has anyone changed their mind on this website? Anyone? Thats what i thought. so the russian "meddling" didn't change your minds either. Meddling or not. It doesn't matter. You are who you are and you vote for who you are going to vote for and no trolls on facebook have changed your mind.
like i said, its a full rebuild.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#829 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:33 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
nate33 wrote:Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.

Wait - decided - where did you make that leap from my comments? But we should ALWAYS quash any interference.

And voter fraud is deciding elections?

Come on Nate - that can't be your best shot on this one?

What voter fraud? Other than illegal immigrants voting, of course.

And with respect (from Monte :D) - Exactly - we don't need to worry about voter fraud - it doesn't materially affect our elections.

With respect to another country using false propaganda - that should be a nono and should always be met with a stiff response. We should meet Russia's meddling with our own but in a much bigger way.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#830 » by pancakes3 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:45 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
daoneandonly wrote:Agree, but Maryland and many many other liberal states aren't exactly playing fair by not enforcing showing your ID when going to the vote, it's a joke. We're going through these hassles now with the new RealID mandate, and still, you don't need an ID to vote, just repeat a few notes like name, birthdate, and address, and walk right through.

Your point is that there is wide spread voter fraud? Link?

The Mueller report shows that Russia did in fact screw with our elections.

Please. They put in a few thousand dollars of Facebook ads, and not all of them were in favor of Trump. They surely do this kind of stuff every election, as does the United States. This notion that Russia decided the election is absurd.


1) Don't pejoritively dismiss the impact, Nate. Last time I checked, memes were free. One person somewhere with $0 in marketing was able to make made crying jordan forever immortalized.

2) Putting in 50k in targeted ads is a substantial amount. This is the internet, not the super bowl.

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3) There were 13 convictions but the IRA has a thousand staffers, spreading disinformation on a global basis. Constantly.

4) Totaling ignoring the hacking, because it's easier to be snarky about fat trolls sitting in their mom's basement.

But let's put aside whether disinformation actually played a role or not, and focus on the fact that Russia is trying. Nobody is trying to take the election away from Trump in this discussion. The criticism is that the administration and its supporters refuse to acknowledge it as a threat all together. Why can't we take this seriously? Speaking of MJ, even MJ can admit that he got away with a shove on Byron Russel after the fact. Nobody is going to take that ring away, but the delusional fanaticism to acknowledge that something untowards happens is bizarre.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#831 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:35 pm

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Michael Avenatti Charged with Extortion, Allegedly Demanded Millions from Nike

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Michael Avenatti, Stormy Daniels' former lawyer, has been charged with extortion by federal prosecutors after allegedly demanding millions from Nike, according to Devlin Barrett of the Washington Post.

Per that report:

"Authorities charge Avenatti threatened to hold a press conference on the eve of the NCAA basketball tournament to reveal damaging allegations against the firm unless it paid his client $1.5 million and agreed to hire Avenatti and another lawyer for $15 to $25 million to conduct an 'internal investigation' into the allegations."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#832 » by FAH1223 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:39 pm

montestewart wrote:To me, a most interesting discussion right now would be how the release of the report's findings, and its spin by the two parties, will effect the 2020 elections. Independents (particularly those who read beyond headlines) may not have a drastically changed opinion of Trump, but they could still see this as a telling defeat of the Democratic party and swing Republican as a result. Many liberal independents urged less focus on the collusion angle, and could again abandon the Democratic party, particularly if they see defeat as inevitable anyway. That could fuel a large Republican victory.

On the other hand, this somewhat has a look similar to the overzealous prosecution of the Duke lacrosse team, where the "squeaky clean" team was shown to have thrown a party with stripper prostitutes servicing the squad in a frat house covered in plastic to protect from the sex and alcohol fueled mess (Krzyzewski worked hard to distance his team from such barely disputed characterizations). In both cases, in other words, there was not enough evidence for the investigating parties to proceed with prosecution, but for those looking at the facts (rather than a desired conclusion), no one is coming out smelling like a rose either.

Welcome back Nate and daoneandonly!

Everyone to your corners and come out swinging.

No cussing or personal attacks from either side, please.


Voters don't care about the Mueller investigation by and large. Trump will remain with 55-60% disapproval ratings. Dems and Independents are going to stay where they are. GOP voters are firmly with Trump.

The 2020 election will be decided in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. And at this moment, the Democrats should win back those states because Trump is deeply unpopular in those states and the Democrats did very well in them in 2018.

Also, if I'm the Trump campaign, these approval ratings would scare the shid out of me especially when you narrowly won the election by 80,000 in 3 states that lean D.

https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump/
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#833 » by Pointgod » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:59 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:
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Michael Avenatti Charged with Extortion, Allegedly Demanded Millions from Nike

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Michael Avenatti, Stormy Daniels' former lawyer, has been charged with extortion by federal prosecutors after allegedly demanding millions from Nike, according to Devlin Barrett of the Washington Post.

Per that report:

"Authorities charge Avenatti threatened to hold a press conference on the eve of the NCAA basketball tournament to reveal damaging allegations against the firm unless it paid his client $1.5 million and agreed to hire Avenatti and another lawyer for $15 to $25 million to conduct an 'internal investigation' into the allegations."
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#834 » by Jamaaliver » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:10 pm

Partisan Politics at its worse...

‘Now we’re in charge’: Dems freeze out GOP on bipartisan bills

Republicans say Democrats are refusing to work with them on legislation in order to snub vulnerable members ahead of 2020[/i]

During the past two sessions of Congress, Democrat Bobby Rush and Republican Richard Hudson introduced legislation together to improve workforce-training programs.

But this year, Rush altered the language to the bill and stripped out a previous key element: Hudson.

Hudson is among several frustrated Republicans who have lashed out at their Democratic colleagues in recent days, arguing that Democrats have shut them out of the legislative process by refusing to work cooperatively on bills — including some they once co-authored.

Republicans claim Democrats, at the direction of their leadership, are determined to deny GOP incumbents any big victories heading into 2020 on a host of issues — from prescription drugs to immigration reform — and are dropping the bipartisan approach they seemed to promise during the last election.

Democrats have one response: Welcome to the minority.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#835 » by gtn130 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:44 pm

pancakes3 wrote:3) Back to the actual report, it was always a stretch to prove collusion on dezinformatsiya - that's just something Russia did on their own. It'd be tough to prove active collusion on that front, short of an email from the IRA to Trump's campaign saying - "here's today's batch of memes you need to be tweeting." So really the collusion investigation was focused on hacking, specifically if Trump conspired, participated, or otherwise coordinated with Russia to get those emails.

4) If we take Barr at his word, and I'm going to do so for the purposes of this post, this means there was insufficient evidence that the Don Jr. meeting could be linked to the hacked DNC emails. Assumptively, there was also insufficient evidence to tie the instances where Trump publicly said he wants to see those emails and then those emails showing up on wikileaks.

5) The letter is also careful to avoid saying "no evidence" and instead stresses that "insufficient evidence" is insufficient to the degree of "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the criminal standard for conviction. Legal rule of thumb is that you've got to be 95-99% sure to get to beyond a reasonable doubt. Compare this with "preponderance of the evidence" for civil trials, where some would characterize as "more likely than not."


It's worth mentioning that if the investigation was narrowly about Russian election interference and Trump campaign collusion with the Russian government, there was absolutely a zero (0.00%) percent chance they would ever indict Trump or his inner circle for anything collusion related.

Barr made a point of saying that the Trump campaign didn't conspire with the Russian government - this language is important because it's virtually impossible to prove that someone works for the Russian government. It's very possible, if not likely, that there is ample evidence of Trump's inner circle conspiring with Russians who are only vaguely associated with the actual Russian government.

I think there's a very good chance that the actual Mueller report is very damaging to Trump politically even if he didn't commit any crimes, and Barr is obviously doing him a major service with this letter. All of the COLLUSION has basically been proven and done out in the open, and the media has reported on it - it's just not something that can be prosecuted, and that's why Trump's talking point has always been NO COLLUSION - because proving collusion is an insanely high bar to clear and it allows Trump, Glenn Greenwald et al to point at the dearth of indictments related to collusion and say how right they were and how exonerated Trump is.

Lastly, the quid pro quo, financial crimes, various emoluments and grifter things all fall out of scope for Mueller. The investigations will continue from different offices, and the Mueller report will eventually come out.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#836 » by nate33 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:57 pm

Matt Taibbi just authored the authoritative analysis of the colossal failure of the mainstream media throughout this entire "Russiagate" experience. If any of you partisan Democrats have the stones to do it, I recommend you read the whole thing. It's absolutely devastating. Again, this is Matt Taibbi. A left-of-center journalist who specializes in investigating corruption, be it in government, banks, or big business. He's one of the best reporters in the industry.

There's so much in here, it's hard not to quote the whole thing. Some excerpts:

For years, every pundit and Democratic pol in Washington hyped every new Russia headline like the Watergate break-in. Now, even Nancy Pelosi has said impeachment is out, unless something “so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan” against Trump is uncovered it would be worth their political trouble to prosecute.

The biggest thing this affair has uncovered so far is Donald Trump paying off a porn star. That’s a hell of a long way from what this business was supposedly about at the beginning, and shame on any reporter who tries to pretend this isn’t so.

The story hyped from the start was espionage: a secret relationship between the Trump campaign and Russian spooks who’d helped him win the election.

The betrayal narrative was not reported as metaphor. It was not “Trump likes the Russians so much, he might as well be a spy for them.” It was literal spying, treason, and election-fixing – crimes so severe, former NSA employee John Schindler told reporters, Trump “will die in jail.”

In the early months of this scandal, the New York Times said Trump’s campaign had “repeated contacts” with Russian intelligence; the Wall Street Journal told us our spy agencies were withholding intelligence from the new President out of fear he was compromised; news leaked out our spy chiefs had even told other countries like Israel not to share their intel with us, because the Russians might have “leverages of pressure” on Trump.

CNN told us Trump officials had been in “constant contact” with “Russians known to U.S. intelligence,” and the former director of the CIA, who’d helped kick-start the investigation that led to Mueller’s probe, said the President was guilty of “high crimes and misdemeanors,” committing acts “nothing short of treasonous.”

Hillary Clinton insisted Russians “could not have known how to weaponize” political ads unless they’d been “guided” by Americans. Asked if she meant Trump, she said, “It’s pretty hard not to.” Harry Reid similarly said he had “no doubt” that the Trump campaign was “in on the deal” to help Russians with the leak.

None of this has been walked back. To be clear, if Trump were being blackmailed by Russian agencies like the FSB or the GRU, if he had any kind of relationship with Russian intelligence, that would soar over the “overwhelming and bipartisan” standard, and Nancy Pelosi would be damning torpedoes for impeachment right now.


The Steele report was the Magna Carta of #Russiagate. It provided the implied context for thousands of news stories to come, yet no journalist was ever able to confirm its most salacious allegations: the five year cultivation plan, the blackmail, the bribe from Sechin, the Prague trip, the pee romp, etc. In metaphorical terms, we were unable to independently produce Steele’s results in the lab. Failure to reckon with this corrupted the narrative from the start.

For years, every hint the dossier might be true became a banner headline, while every time doubt was cast on Steele’s revelations, the press was quiet. Washington Post reporter Greg Miller went to Prague and led a team looking for evidence Cohen had been there. Post reporters, Miller said, “literally spent weeks and months trying to run down” the Cohen story.

“We sent reporters through every hotel in Prague, through all over the place, just to try to figure out if he was ever there,” he said, “and came away empty.”

This was heads-I-win, tails-you-lose reporting. One assumes if Miller found Cohen’s name in a hotel ledger, it would have been on page 1 of the Post. The converse didn’t get a mention in Miller’s own paper. He only told the story during a discussion aired by C-SPAN about a new book he’d published. Only The Daily Caller and a few conservative blogs picked it up.

It was the same when Bob Woodward said, “I did not find [espionage or collusion]… Of course I looked for it, looked for it hard.”

The celebrated Watergate muckraker – who once said he’d succumbed to “groupthink” in the WMD episode and added, “I blame myself mightily for not pushing harder” – didn’t push very hard here, either. News that he’d tried and failed to find collusion didn’t get into his own paper. It only came out when Woodward was promoting his book Fear in a discussion with conservative host Hugh Hewitt.

When Michael Cohen testified before congress and denied under oath ever being in Prague, it was the same. Few commercial news outlets bothered to take note of the implications this had for their previous reports. Would a man clinging to a plea deal lie to congress on national television about this issue?

There was a CNN story, but the rest of the coverage was all in conservative outlets – the National Review, Fox, The Daily Caller. The Washington Post’s response was to run an editorial sneering at “How conservative media downplayed Michael Cohen’s testimony.”


Perhaps worst of all was the episode involving Yahoo! reporter Michael Isikoff. He had already been part of one strange tale: the FBI double-dipping when it sought a FISA warrant to conduct secret surveillance of Carter Page, the would-be mastermind who was supposed to have brokered a deal with oligarch Sechin.

In its FISA application, the FBI included both the unconfirmed Steele report and Isikoff’s September 23, 2016 Yahoo! story, “U.S. Intel Officials probe ties between Trump adviser and Kremlin.” The Isikoff story, which claimed Page had met with “high ranking sanctioned officials” in Russia, had relied upon Steele as an unnamed source.

This was similar to a laundering technique used in the WMD episode called “stove-piping,” i.e. officials using the press to “confirm” information the officials themselves fed the reporter.

But there was virtually no non-conservative press about this problem apart from a Washington Post story pooh-poohing the issue. (Every news story that casts any doubt on the collusion issue seems to meet with an instantaneous “fact check” in the Post.) The Post insisted the FISA issue wasn’t serious among other things because Steele was not the “foundation” of Isikoff’s piece.

Isikoff was perhaps the reporter most familiar with Steele. He and Corn of Mother Jones, who also dealt with the ex-spy, wrote a bestselling book that relied upon theories from Steele, Russian Roulette, including a rumination on the “pee” episode. Yet Isikoff in late 2018 suddenly said he believed the Steele report would turn out to be “mostly false.”


As a purely journalistic failure, however, WMD was a pimple compared to Russiagate. The sheer scale of the errors and exaggerations this time around dwarfs the last mess. Worse, it’s led to most journalists accepting a radical change in mission. We’ve become sides-choosers, obliterating the concept of the press as an independent institution whose primary role is sorting fact and fiction.

We had the sense to eventually look inward a little in the WMD affair, which is the only reason we escaped that episode with any audience left. Is the press even capable of that kind of self-awareness now? WMD damaged our reputation. If we don’t turn things around, this story will destroy it.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#837 » by closg00 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:01 pm

The media had to cover and report the "Russia Gate story", just as all of the Clinton investigations were covered.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#838 » by closg00 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:08 pm

gtn130 wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:3) Back to the actual report, it was always a stretch to prove collusion on dezinformatsiya - that's just something Russia did on their own. It'd be tough to prove active collusion on that front, short of an email from the IRA to Trump's campaign saying - "here's today's batch of memes you need to be tweeting." So really the collusion investigation was focused on hacking, specifically if Trump conspired, participated, or otherwise coordinated with Russia to get those emails.

4) If we take Barr at his word, and I'm going to do so for the purposes of this post, this means there was insufficient evidence that the Don Jr. meeting could be linked to the hacked DNC emails. Assumptively, there was also insufficient evidence to tie the instances where Trump publicly said he wants to see those emails and then those emails showing up on wikileaks.

5) The letter is also careful to avoid saying "no evidence" and instead stresses that "insufficient evidence" is insufficient to the degree of "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the criminal standard for conviction. Legal rule of thumb is that you've got to be 95-99% sure to get to beyond a reasonable doubt. Compare this with "preponderance of the evidence" for civil trials, where some would characterize as "more likely than not."


It's worth mentioning that if the investigation was narrowly about Russian election interference and Trump campaign collusion with the Russian government, there was absolutely a zero (0.00%) percent chance they would ever indict Trump or his inner circle for anything collusion related.

Barr made a point of saying that the Trump campaign didn't conspire with the Russian government - this language is important because it's virtually impossible to prove that someone works for the Russian government. It's very possible, if not likely, that there is ample evidence of Trump's inner circle conspiring with Russians who are only vaguely associated with the actual Russian government.

I think there's a very good chance that the actual Mueller report is very damaging to Trump politically even if he didn't commit any crimes, and Barr is obviously doing him a major service with this letter. All of the COLLUSION has basically been proven and done out in the open, and the media has reported on it - it's just not something that can be prosecuted, and that's why Trump's talking point has always been NO COLLUSION - because proving collusion is an insanely high bar to clear and it allows Trump, Glenn Greenwald et al to point at the dearth of indictments related to collusion and say how right they were and how exonerated Trump is.

Lastly, the quid pro quo, financial crimes, various emoluments and grifter things all fall out of scope for Mueller. The investigations will continue from different offices, and the Mueller report will eventually come out.


Eventually it may trickle-out, but it appears that the Dems got punked completely, Mueller punted on obstruction and didn't interview Jr, Kushner, and perhaps Trumps secretary (can't find evidence that she was interviewed). Let's see if Barr releases anything damaging on Trump/campaign, if he does not, this was a capture and kill operation.
Oh! Barr's son-in-law is a member of the WH legal team, can you Imagine if it were Obama or Clinton?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#839 » by Pointgod » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:31 pm

closg00 wrote:The media had to cover and report the "Russia Gate story", just as all of the Clinton investigations were covered.


I’d like to remind everyone zero indictments in the so called Clinton scandal.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XXV 

Post#840 » by closg00 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:35 pm

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