Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

[revprodeji]

Maybe not as fast, but he is thick/strong. He has a good step back between the legs crossover.

Kid has tools, maybe a real coach can do something with him. I always thought he was some mental aspects away from being a very good starting guard.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Latrell Sprewell couldn't go left -- everyone knew he was going right, and he was unstoppable going right for a number of years. While developing a strong off-hand is certainly ideal, there are ways to mitigate that weakness.

Sprewell was stoppable. His scoring average was always pretty good because he played a lot of minutes and used a lot of possessions, but he was inefficient. He had a one outstanding year in Golden State, a couple other good years, and other than that was actually pretty average. On the offensive end, he had a career offensive rating of 103 vs. a league average about about 107 during his career. He had 5 seasons in which his ortg dipped below 100.

[fishercob]

Shouldn't you be in some basement crunching numbers?

I hear you, but also don't think his relative inefficiency or efficiency is particularly related to his heavy right-handedness -- at least not in any sort of measurable way. There are plenty of guys who are better with both hands who weren't Spree's equal offensively.

[Rafael122]

Aren't we using Young in the Rip Hamilton role anyway?

[fishercob]

I have seen almost every Foye game as a pro. (wolves mod) The kid is very likeable and has all the tools you would want. but he is incredibly inconsistent. Horribly inconsistent. I think confidence is a big part of that. If he just focused on the 3 and going to the tin he would be fine. If he could go left it would help. I think with less pressure on the Wiz he should be a key weapon. I look forward to seeing flip use him properly this year.

Interesting, I have never read about this weakness. I have trust that Flip will be able to use Foye in the right way, if he doesn't pan-out, he was a one-year rental.

Go watch the highlights from the Day 3 scrimmage and tell me Foye can't go left. Strong drive to -- and finish with -- his left in traffic, plus a nice drive left and pull-up for the foul-line J.

[GoneShammGone]

Bumping this thread since we are seeing Brandon Jennings tonight (who could have been playing the role of EarlB for us).

The stock of this trade is cratering. Foye had amazingly bad timing with the sprained ankle. Right now, with EarlB on the team, there is no role for Foye. Even if he were playing well, what is his best-case scenario? Twenty minutes a game backing up Nick Young? When Miller comes back he will be fighting for scraps with DS. At this point he is little more than a deep bench player and expiring contract. MM is obviously an important player for us, but was he worth giving up the chance to draft Brandon Jennings?

At the time of this trade I was actually all for it... but it seems to have blown up in our face. Makes me glad I'm not an NBA GM.

[nate33]

Nobody was looking at Jennings with the #5 pick. You can't look at the draft with 20/20 hindsight. Jennings was the 4th PG on everyone's draft board after Rubio, Flynn and Curry. We probably would have drafted Stephen Curry. If not, we would have drafted Rubio, Hill or DeRozan.

The fair way to evaluate trade is to ask yourself if you'd rather have Miller + Foye + Oberto, or S.Curry + Etan + Songaila.

I think trading the pick was the right choice given what we knew at the time. That said, I didn't care for the actual trade EG came up with because I felt Foye was redundant with Young. I would have like to see a different trade. If nothing else, a more modest version of the deal could have been put together which didn't involve Foye. Minny probably would have done Stevenson + James + #5 for Miller + #17. It's the same trade capwise except we're left with the #17 pick instead of Foye.

Furthermore, Kahn has shown that Etan and Songaila were both movable. We could have made the same trade with OKC (getting Sucky Atkin's non-guaranteed deal) and saved Abe another $7M instantly. We could have also traded Songaila for an expiring contract at some point this year.

If EG had played his cards right, we could have essentially our current roster minus Foye and Stevenson and with the #17 draft pick. We could have saved Abe $7M this year, $7M next year, and we'd probably have one of JRue Holiday (taken at #17), Lawson (#18) or Darren Collison (#21).

Lineup:
PG Arenas/Lawson
SG Young/Miller
SF Butler/Miller/DMac
PF Jamison/Blatche
C Haywood/McGee
Surplus expiring contracts: Damien Wilkins, Javaris Crittenton, result of Songaila trade

All luxtax issues are solved and we have a much younger, bigger and better version of Boykins in Ty Lawson.

[fishercob]

Well, your version looks better, nate, but as you said about hindsight....

I've long held that we can't fully evaluate this trade until after this coming offseason. If we lose miller or Haywood than I think it's safe to say it's epic fail. There's still plenty of time for Foye to contribute or get moved for someone who will.

[closg00]

^^^^
Kahn was very patient and EG clearly was not and he was taken advantage of as evidenced by Kahn moving Song & Etan. Nate, you really hurt me by reminding us about the lost # 18 pick.

[nate33]

:droop:

Well, your version looks better, nate, but as you said about hindsight....

I've long held that we can't fully evaluate this trade until after this coming offseason. If we lose miller or Haywood than I think it's safe to say it's epic fail. There's still plenty of time for Foye to contribute or get moved for someone who will.

Fair enough. I tried to fairly disagree with EG without using hindsight. I felt at the time of the trade that Foye was unnecessary, so the logical move would have been to replace him with a pick (which would required us to send James as filler instead of Etan to make it work capwise).

And I'm certain EG would have continued to work the phones to dump Etan. There's no reason to believe he couldn't have stumbled upon the same OKC deal that Kahn came up with.

I agree that it may be unfair 20/20 hindsight to pick Lawson at #17, but he was certainly the guy most of our trade gurus wanted. At any rate, chances are, if we didn't draft Lawson, we'd have ended up with Collison, Holiday or maybe Teague. Any of those guys would be a better fit going forward than Foye so long as Young and Miller are on the roster.

[Hoopalotta]

I think it should be mentioned that an owner with a life threatening illness gave a mandate from the top that we needed to 'win now'. That set the stage for everything.

I also look at it like we would have drafted Curry. Jennings was a whisper on the wind at that point. All told, and with hindsight, I'd probably say I'd rather that we had drafted Curry, but it's not like he's some sure-fire hall of famer. Had we missed out on Tyreke, it would have been a disaster, but he wasn't there. Rubio is not known for great quickness or a jumper, and he's also 18 years old and in Spain. He could sit out three years and completely slip the Wolves and it didn't sound like he was loving the fit here either.

But anyway, with what we knew at the time, it was reasonable. Foye and Miller haven't been able to do what we hoped to this point as they've been injured, but of course there's no way of knowing that over the summer. They have shown flashes of real good play though; Foye could easily rally from here and beat out Nick again.

And again, you'd really have to bring Abe into this if you want to gripe, and I think we can all agree that that would be tacky. An old man wanted to see his team win before he died.

Some might say that we should have nailed Stoudamire for the pick and Butler, but I don't know that it was as simple as that. I do know that Golden State was in very public talks for him and it was a real gut punch as to what all they'd have to give up (maybe someone else remembers better?). I also worry a bit that what sparkles in his game will dim a bit without Nash to feed him and I don't like maxing him next year either (I consider him a really dangerous free agent for the team that gets him as I'm seeing high "Oh No!" potential).

It is what it is. Curry would have been a good player for us, but I can live. Drafting Alexis Ajinca over JaVale in 2008 (he was taken 2 picks later) would have been a lot more damaging in my opinion.

[GoneShammGone]

Nate---fair point about Jennings...but Stephen Curry signed to a rookie deal as our third guard behind Gil and Nick Young doesn't sound too bad right now. I think for this season, MM gives us a better chance to max out our potential, but for the next two years I'm not so sure that he will be much of an upgrade over Curry. But yeah, your version where we got both MM and Ty Lawson would have been sweet!

Still I'd like to understand EGs thinking. It seems that Foye was really an insurance policy... in case Gil wasn't healthy and/or Nick failed to develop. If true, then EG was sacrificing value for safety. Not sure I like that approach to team-building. Its the kind of thinking that leads to several years of 45-50 wins and second round exits....

[Hoopalotta]

Having said all that, Nate's scenario looks, erm, good. Very good.

[DCZards]

Still I'd like to understand EGs thinking. It seems that Foye was really an insurance policy... in case Gil wasn't healthy and/or Nick failed to develop. If true, then EG was sacrificing value for safety. Not sure I like that approach to team-building. Its the kind of thinking that leads to several years of 45-50 wins and second round exits....

Foye may yet to prove to be an "insurance policy." Lots of guys getting hurt so far this season in the NBA. Foye's injury hurt his PT (and thus his production) but I wouldn't be surprised to see him get his groove back and still be the kind of contributor some of us expect him to be. It's a long season.

Like others have said, Jennings really wasn't on a lot radar screens as a top five pick, although I remember him telling everyone he was better than Rubio. Turns out he also should have been drafted ahead of Flynn and Curry. I'd still take Tyreke over him though.

[DCZards]

And again, you'd really have to bring Abe into this if you want to gripe, and I think we can all agree that that would be tacky. An old man wanted to see his team win before he died.

Abe's failing health had nothing to do with the trade, imo. (You need to give both the old man and EG more credit than that. I don't think either of them would use Abe's health as a justification for a trade.)

EG knows that the Zards need to win now given the advancing age of GA, AJ and CB, so it made sense to pull the trigger for a couple of proven players.

[AceDegenerate]

Boykins is back in the NBA after spending last season playing for Virtus Bologna of the Italian A League, which possibly worked out in his favor. Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld was actually in Italy last summer scouting Brandon Jennings when Jennings' team was facing Virtus Bologna. Apparently, he still has something left.

The Wizards had considered seven players for the fifth pick: Davidson point guard Stephen Curry, Southern California swingman DeMar DeRozan, Memphis point guard Tyreke Evans, Syracuse point guard Jonny Flynn, Arizona State shooting guard James Harden, Arizona forward Jordan Hill and Lottomatica Roma point guard Brandon Jennings.

Suggests that Jennings may certainly have been a possibility. To assume Curry would have been the pick, which is the obvious one, would go against everything Grunfeld has ever done as GM here. The man never makes the obvious choice/deal.

[pancakes3]

i thought the big picture was to move etan for a wing player that could shoot. mike miller was a player that nobody in the draft could emulate, and he filled a role that our team really needed - the "dmac with a jumper" player we were all talking about 10 months ago.

so, i think forgoing brandon jennings is less of an issue than the point nate brought up - getting foye instead of the 18th pick. i hope it was a last measure, and that minny wouldn't budge. between etan, opec, and a lotto pick, minny probably didn't want to just ship out 1 expiring and a draft pick. it might not have worked out optimally for us, but it if we had parlayed an expiring and a lotto pick into a mid-1st rounder and a 6moy who was expiring himself, it might have been unbalanced enough for minny to call the whole thing off and look for other suitors.

[closg00]

Boykins is back in the NBA after spending last season playing for Virtus Bologna of the Italian A League, which possibly worked out in his favor. Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld was actually in Italy last summer scouting Brandon Jennings when Jennings' team was facing Virtus Bologna. Apparently, he still has something left.

The Wizards had considered seven players for the fifth pick: Davidson point guard Stephen Curry, Southern California swingman DeMar DeRozan, Memphis point guard Tyreke Evans, Syracuse point guard Jonny Flynn, Arizona State shooting guard James Harden, Arizona forward Jordan Hill and Lottomatica Roma point guard Brandon Jennings.

Suggests that Jennings may certainly have been a possibility. To assume Curry would have been the pick, which is the obvious one, would go against everything Grunfeld has ever done as GM here. The man never makes the obvious choice/deal.

You have to remember that Ernie LOVES the European junket. The Pecherov & Veremeenko picks cames as a result of Ernie's European junkets. This past draft, Ernie had to endure the hardship of scouting Rubio in Spain & Jennings in Italy. State-side, Ernie sent his staffers to go check out potential picks . I seriously doubt that Ernie was considering Jennings as-much as it was an excuse for a trip to Italy.

[AceDegenerate]

Boykins is back in the NBA after spending last season playing for Virtus Bologna of the Italian A League, which possibly worked out in his favor. Wizards President Ernie Grunfeld was actually in Italy last summer scouting Brandon Jennings when Jennings' team was facing Virtus Bologna. Apparently, he still has something left.

The Wizards had considered seven players for the fifth pick: Davidson point guard Stephen Curry, Southern California swingman DeMar DeRozan, Memphis point guard Tyreke Evans, Syracuse point guard Jonny Flynn, Arizona State shooting guard James Harden, Arizona forward Jordan Hill and Lottomatica Roma point guard Brandon Jennings.

Suggests that Jennings may certainly have been a possibility. To assume Curry would have been the pick, which is the obvious one, would go against everything Grunfeld has ever done as GM here. The man never makes the obvious choice/deal.

You have to remember that Ernie LOVES the European junket. The Pecherov & Veremeenko picks cames as a result of Ernie's European junkets. This past draft, Ernie had to endure the hardship of scouting Rubio in Spain & Jennings in Italy. State-side, Ernie sent his staffers to go check out potential picks . I seriously doubt that Ernie was considering Jennings as-much as it was an excuse for a trip to Italy.

Well then, if you truly believe that, how does this make Mr. Grunfled any more capable a GM than say Michael Jordan?

[dobrojim]

too early to give up completely on Foye, lots could happen.

BTW - what happened to the TOR game thread? I don't see it

ps MM, if he can find a way to stay healthy for a couple months,
is the real deal and a great fit for our team.