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LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - La Going to LA

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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#841 » by Kanyewest » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:19 pm

GhostsOfGil wrote:Wade Career FGA per 36 minutes: 17.6
Wade Career FTA per 36 minutes: 8.4

Lebron Career FGA per 36 minutes: 18.3
Lebron Career FTA per 36 minutes: 7.8

Jordan Career FGA per 36 minutes: 21.5
Jordan Career FTA per 36 minutes: 7.7

One year Wade averaged 10.7 FTA per game on 18.8 shots per game! In Lebron's 10 year career he's averaged over 10 FTA per game 3 times. Over MJ's 15 year career, he averaged over 10 FTA 2ce and it took him over 24 FGAs per game to do so.


Jordan still got his fair share of fouls called in his favor towards the end. In his last season, he got 9.2 fta per 36 minutes in the playoffs and 10.6 per game. I would also be careful about comparing FTA because Jordan converted more and 1s then anyone I remember.

It was painful to watch the refs favoring Jordan against Utah and LeBron got similar treatment in other playoff series. Although Wade's 2006 NBA Finals may have been the most absurd although Dirk was also averaging 10 FTA per 36 minutes in the playoffs.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#842 » by GhostsOfGil » Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:32 pm

Ya that's true Kanye. MJ was gifted those and 1s ALL THE TIME and your right about the playoffs. Jordan got heavy favoritism during some of his late finals runs. Still, I would say Wade benefited more from star calls. I mean 16 FTA per game in the 2006 finals was absurd, just as you put it.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#843 » by FreeBalling » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:29 pm

Some people might disagree with Rodman's comments on LeQueef. I happen to agree with him...the league is SOFT TODAY. I support protecting players. However, I do not like seeing the REF's take over ball games.

The NBA of the 80s and 90s had powerful men protecting the lanes. Could you imagine LeQueef crying after Oakley, Mason or Malone gave him a hard foul. The hard foul COULD change how player's attack the rim in the future (We all know it did.). I am not advocating close-lining or fighting. However, I do support protecting the painted area or lanes. If the coach wants to burn some fouls on blocking shots or going after the ball. Let them burn some fouls.

Sure Jordan got calls and he got hard fouls as well.


I hate flopping in today's NBA and the best player seems to support flopping. What kind of message is LeQueef sending to the future NBA players?

Will there be an element of WWE in the NBA?

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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#844 » by Nivek » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:22 pm

If you look at how often the refs blow the whistle -- fouls per FGA and FTA per FGA -- the numbers do not support the claim that the league is softer now than it was in Jordan's era. I just went back and looked at those measures for every 5th year going back to the inception of pro basketball. This season, there were .242 fouls per FGA -- the lowest that number has been since the 1972-73 season.

The highest number of fouls called per FGA (a measure of ref protectiveness) by season:

  1. 1953
  2. 1983
  3. 1989
  4. 1988
  5. 1978
  6. 1993
  7. 2003
  8. 1968
  9. 2008
  10. 1963
  11. 1958
  12. 2013
  13. 1973
  14. 1948

Jordan's career was 1984-2003, so #3, 4, 6 and 7 on this list. Lebron's career is 2003-13 (so far) -- numbers 7, 9 and 12 on this list.

So, the game may indeed be less physical in Lebron's era than it was in Jordan's, but refs were more active in protecting the players by blowing the whistle in Jordan's time than they have been during Lebron's career.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#845 » by FreeBalling » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:30 pm

Nivek, players today are ejected for physical fouls. Stern wanted to clean up the game and it lead way to the floppers, because the Enforcers were run out of the league.

Thanks for the stats, you offered some great information from a different perspective.

EDIT: Why did the REFS change last night?
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#846 » by Nivek » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:42 pm

Guys aren't getting ejected/suspended for physical fouls, they're getting ejected/suspended for cheap shots and dangerous or dirty plays. There's a difference.

As for enforcers: a) I don't agree they're gone. And b) I wouldn't be bothered if they were -- they don't improve the game a bit.

Also, I don't think steps to limit cheap shots and dirty plays led to floppers. There have ALWAYS been floppers in various forms. The biggest factor in the rise of flopping is the emphasis college coaches began to place on drawing offensive charging fouls.

I think flopping is pretty easy to fix. Escalating punishments that start with fines and then lead to suspensions of both the flopper and his coach.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#847 » by LyricalRico » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:49 pm

Nivek wrote:I think flopping is pretty easy to fix. Escalating punishments that start with fines and then lead to suspensions of both the flopper and his coach.


Don't they have automatic suspensions for players as they accumulate technical fouls? Why not retroactively assign a tech for every flop, in addition to whatever the current penalties are?
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#848 » by GhostsOfGil » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:14 am

Kev, interesting stuff. The frequency of fouls may have been higher during Jordan's era but it still says little about superstar calls. I mean in 88 and 89 Jordan still needed 23 FGA per game to get 10 FTs. 06 and 07 arn't on your list for most fouls per FGA but Wade averaged over 10 FTA per game on only 18 shots over that span. I think in general the NBA protect's it's superstars far more even if the fouls per game were higher during the Jordan years.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#849 » by GhostsOfGil » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:21 am

Nivek wrote:Guys aren't getting ejected/suspended for physical fouls, they're getting ejected/suspended for cheap shots and dangerous or dirty plays. There's a difference.


I don't think this is entirely true. Flagrant fouls are NOT what they used to be. A bop on the head is an automatic F1 nowadays and hard fouls are pretty much a thing of the past. T's are also given out way more hastily. While I understand why, it's still killed some of the emotion/drama I remember seeing in the early 90s.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#850 » by montestewart » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:35 am

GhostsOfGil wrote:
Nivek wrote:Guys aren't getting ejected/suspended for physical fouls, they're getting ejected/suspended for cheap shots and dangerous or dirty plays. There's a difference.


I don't think this is entirely true. Flagrant fouls are NOT what they used to be. A bop on the head is an automatic F1 nowadays and hard fouls are pretty much a thing of the past. T's are also given out way much more hastily. While I understand why, it's still killed some of the emotion/drama I remember seeing in the early 90s.

I agree with that last point, but players are generally bigger and stronger now. The exact same foul can do a lot more damage.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#851 » by AFM » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:39 am

Lebron a bust. He a bust.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#852 » by Severn Hoos » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:30 am

Nivek wrote:Also, I don't think steps to limit cheap shots and dirty plays led to floppers. There have ALWAYS been floppers in various forms. The biggest factor in the rise of flopping is the emphasis Coach K began to place on drawing offensive charging fouls.


FIFY. ;-)

I think flopping is pretty easy to fix. Escalating punishments that start with fines and then lead to suspensions of both the flopper and his coach.


I find it encouraging that the refs are at least occasionally refusing to call the flop. Other than players questioning the "manhood" (sorry, I know it's not politically correct, no agenda there - but an attempt to convey the idea of a "code" that NBA players should uphold) of the floppers, the best way to police it is to leave the flopper on the floor while the man he's supposed to be guarding flies to the rim for a dunk or makes an uncontested jumper. And if the flopper is a little worried about where other players will land while he's rolling around on the floor in the lane, all the better.

Same goes for the Reggie/Kobe/Wade stick-a-leg-out or jump-sideways while shooting to make contact with a defender in the air. If the refs would just stare at them after the missed shot - or maybe even call an offensive foul for initiating the contact - it would end pretty quickly.

That, and I'd get rid of the circle under the basket. It's only made it worse, IMO.

Oh, and one more thing - I was also VERY happy to see the "verticality" rule applied in the pacers' series. I'd much, much, much, much rather see a defender go straight up and challenge a shot than stand like a moron guarding the family jewels and trying to bait the ref into blowing his whistle. Encourage an actual basketball play and discourage the Tony Award auditions, and the game will be better for it.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#853 » by hands11 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:15 am

GhostsOfGil wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
GhostsOfGil wrote:That's not true. MJ got star calls but both Wade and Lebron have benefited far more from the officials over their careers.

There are numbers that back this up: FGA in the paint, draw foul %s, FGA-FTA ratio, etc.

MJ drove less as he got older because he didn't have the body to take contact that Lebron has. Also, Lebron has the benefit of hand-checking rules. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for at least most of MJ's career, hand-checking was allowed.


Ya, MJ was far less agressive after his first 3peat but even during the early stages of his career, he was still averaging under 10 FTA per 36 minutes on over 20 FGA per game. I like to compare his numbers to Wade because his slashing ability is very similar to Jordans (IMO). I cant find the numbers but I remember reading that Wade's draw foul % blows Jordan's out of the water. Do we really believe that Wade is better at drawing contact?


He may well be.

MJs goal for many years was to get by you and dunk it. If you happen to be in the way, then he dunked it on you.

Latter he was looking for separation so he could get his jumper off.

Wade likely gets more fools in large part be, they call fouls easier today and because MJ was a superior athlete who could jump by you, over you or away from you.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#854 » by Nivek » Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:55 pm

LyricalRico wrote:
Nivek wrote:I think flopping is pretty easy to fix. Escalating punishments that start with fines and then lead to suspensions of both the flopper and his coach.


Don't they have automatic suspensions for players as they accumulate technical fouls? Why not retroactively assign a tech for every flop, in addition to whatever the current penalties are?


That would make sense. My thinking was to have someone in the league office review possible flops. The punishments would go something like --

1st offense -- $10k
2nd offense -- $50k
3rd offense -- $50k + a one-game suspension
4th offense -- $100k + a two-game suspension
5th offense -- $250k + a three-game suspension, at least one of which must be served by the head coach

Another option, which I also like, would be to have someone at the league office reviewing potential flops during the game. If he identifies a flop, he communicates with the on-court refs and the flopper gets assessed with a tech. That way there's an in-game penalty to eliminate the perceived advantage.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#855 » by Nivek » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:03 pm

By the way, it occurred to me that the stuff I posted above could actually be interpreted to support the claim that the league is significantly less physical than it was during Jordan's era. The decrease in fouls per FGA could be a result in less fouling period. As in, maybe players simply aren't fouling as much as they used to.

I'd be a bit skeptical of that, however, because 2013 was still pretty close to the historical average. And, fluctuations in fouls per FGA have happened in a pretty narrow band through the years.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#856 » by barelyawake » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:42 pm

So sick how the general board obsesses over athleticism to compare eras. Factors much more important than the slight increase in athleticism...

1) Education. The number of "years of college" have dramatically decreased. And the quality of that education has as well. Why? It starts because Jr. high schoolers are being scouted (and know it). Try to teach some kid on the 2016 NBA mock draft board about the hard work involved in learning fundamentals -- when he is dunking over everyone in his county. Then, how many schools allow athletes to skate by without actually learning anything? And then they are drafted younger. Which leads to...
2) Entitlement and money. The average NBA salary in 1980 was $20,000 (roughly $70000 adjusted for inflation). Most weren't rich after one contact -- unlike say Thabeet. You had less players just cashing in, but not doing the work. Coaches are less coach now and more CEOs of kids with a million reasons not to play basketball. Lots of Blatches and Kwames in the league -- guys who feel entitled minus the fundamentals or work ethic.
3) Number of expansion teams watering down the league.
4) Hard fouls. If you know driving into the lane means a receiving a good smack, and you do it anyway, that takes more determination than driving knowing you'll be rewarded (often for minimal contact). It also means you have to develop a set of fakes in order to avoid said smacks.

I could go on... The gross basketball IQ in today's game is much less than previous decades. How many bigs ever reach half their potential today? Remember fully-developed bigs with fully-developed hook shots? It reminds me of Magic's comeback game after he was diagnosed. The announcers were hyping how this "new generation" of guards were so quick. I believe the opposing team was the Warriors w/ Spreewell -- whomever the player was was an All Star and considered a great defender by the announcers. Spreewell would fit the bill having just earned defensive second team. So, the announcers wondered if an older Magic could manage Spree's speed and defense. First quarter. Lakers grab the rebound and outlet to a breaking Magic. It's Spree vs Magic alone at the opposite end. Spree sets-up determined not to allow Magic to take him to the hoop. Magic dips his shoulder and fakes the drive. Spree "quickly" bites on the fake. And Magic smiles and steps back for the trey. Whole crowd laughed. Give me basketball IQ and heart over entitled, athletic children every time.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#857 » by deneem4 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:56 pm

Nba is soft now....it changed when ron artest became metta world peace....

Wade used to be one of the players that reminded me of tht 90s basketball, his aggresiveness and careless attacking at all defenders was very mjness, only matched by kobe, now matched by rose....lebron dont attack out of isos like those players, he shoot the jumper or kick out...I giv him his props for his power but if hes going that strong, there should be no foul called...
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#858 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:25 pm

The way to curb flopping is to call fouls on flopping in the game- like a personal foul, technical or video review where 2 free throws are given similar to a flagrant. Perhaps there can be video review to avoid mistakes.
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#859 » by doclinkin » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:22 am

Left the arena without taking the podium. Let Bosh and Wade take the spotlight for that. Same ol'...
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Re: LeTravel, LaQween, LaDouche - The story is changing 

Post#860 » by nate33 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:39 am

Nivek wrote:That would make sense. My thinking was to have someone in the league office review possible flops. The punishments would go something like --

1st offense -- $10k
2nd offense -- $50k
3rd offense -- $50k + a one-game suspension
4th offense -- $100k + a two-game suspension
5th offense -- $250k + a three-game suspension, at least one of which must be served by the head coach.

One problem with this is that the penalties really hurt the lower salaried players more. I'd fine them one-game's worth of pay - then 2-games - then 3 games, etc.

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