Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Vesely, Singleton, Mack... you literally could have taken a dart board and done better with the picks following. He really has no skill drafting.

There is a reason he is ranked where he is ranked as a GM.

Doesn't negotiate with Webster, Maynor and Harrington. He really has no skill in the FA process.

There is a reason he is ranked where he is ranked as a GM.

And the irony is IMO Mack is the best of the three and the first player they dumped.

I also believe Vesely's progress was totally ruined by the OkaRiza deal. He's serviceable off the bench and would have been a decent round 2 pick IMO.

Singleton wouldn't shock me if he has a Dominic McGuire kind of career.

[closg00]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

[montestewart]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

If someone really believes the world is 6000 years old, there is no evidence to the contrary. All they remember is Vesely was the clear winner.

[hands11]

Vesely, Singleton, Mack... you literally could have taken a dart board and done better with the picks following. He really has no skill drafting.

There is a reason he is ranked where he is ranked as a GM.

Doesn't negotiate with Webster, Maynor and Harrington. He really has no skill in the FA process.

There is a reason he is ranked where he is ranked as a GM.

And the irony is IMO Mack is the best of the three and the first player they dumped.

I also believe Vesely's progress was totally ruined by the OkaRiza deal. He's serviceable off the bench and would have been a decent round 2 pick IMO.

Singleton wouldn't shock me if he has a Dominic McGuire kind of career.

Consider this.

How much did Mack getting dumped play into his development. As a result he got to go into battle on a few different teams trying to win a job. He also went down to the DL and got to work on his game. He wasn't just rotting on the bench. I think now that Ves is out of here he will get a chance to develop as well.

The Wizards as their roster was, wasn't a good place for a young Mack. Now at 24 and with the road he has traveled, I can see how he could help a team like ATL as a back up. I haven't seen him play much recently but he was more a small SG who was forced to learn PG in order to see court time. Dude is 6-3 210. I imagine after 3 years he has matured and improved some in his PG skills but I bet he is still more of a SG at PG.

His problem here was he couldn't drive by anyone and his defense was average at best. Just not what we needed. Specially with Wall injured. What we always needed behind Wall was a vet PG to help teach him. We have that now in the PROFESSOR who we have for one more year if we want. By then Wall will be mature enough that we can add a younger back up if we want but I bet you still go with someone who has played.

A lot of this teams development was slowed by Walls injuries 2011 66 games, 2012 49 games played.
Nene didn't arrive until late 2011. In 2012 he played 61 games. A good team needs a PG and a post option.

No Wall. No Nene and no quality back up PG. There wasn't enough there for the team to win and develop like it could have.

Now with a more developed TEAM in place, they were able to absorb Nene missing 20 games. Next year should be even better. Beal can now handle the ball a little better and the team has winning confidence to gel around and to attract better FAs when needed. The team is also more defined so they can more easily identify who fits the system and personalities of the team.

[hands11]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

[dckingsfan]

I haven't looked too closely the past 4-5 years, but the years before that I was AMAZED at the generalized ineptitude of most scouting departments.

Under the definition of inept scouting department there is a picture of Ernie and his staff.

[montestewart]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is were it went down.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

[hands11]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is were it went down.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

Reading multiple pages gets kind of funny. All kind of names dropped. Lots liked Singleton. Even suggestions of trading up to get him. People wanting D Williams. People putting Singleton and Faried at the same level.

Being a GM is not as easy as people make it out when you are actually held to all your decisions. On here it easy to read past the mistakes and highlight the good choices. GM have every move they make hung out like dirty laundry. No take back opps, my bad stuff.

I think the player out of that draft that I was most off about was Brooks. I though he would be better then he has been.

[closg00]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

[Brenice]

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

Vesely was a miss, but he was not a Darko instead of Wade, Bosh, or Melo miss at the 2nd pick of the draft because whomever else was available in that draft, are not great players. They are average to good players.

If there ever was a draft to swing for the fences, 2011 was it. They swung, they missed.

[hands11]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

I posted the link to the draft day thread. People can read what people wrote for themselves. I jumped through no hoops to do it. I had that bookmarked from before.

As for your EG is my master comment.

[closg00]

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

I posted the link to the draft day thread. People can read what people wrote for themselves. I jumped through no hoops to do it. I had that bookmarked from before.

As for your EG is my master comment.

There is a difference between guys waiving the Do Not Draft flag on Jan Vesely before the draft, and the post-draft resignation of posters wishing for the best.

[hands11]

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

Vesely was a miss, but he was not a Darko instead of Wade, Bosh, or Melo miss at the 2nd pick of the draft because whomever else was available in that draft, are not great players. They are average to good players.

If there ever was a draft to swing for the fences, 2011 was it. They swung, they missed.

Yeah. Some people made specific comments about why swinging for the fence was the way to go.

Clearly the logic was to get a PF that could run with Wall in transition that had good court sense and could play some defense and block some shots. Ves fits that description. They just abandoned the plan when they decided they needed more vets to anchor the team so Wall could get better.

That same general logic being a little more conservative had me looking at Markieff Morris instead of Ves. And if not that, a big that had good rebounding and scoring fundamental like Nikola Vucevic. Or if you want SF get one with good size and upside like Tobias Harris.

[hands11]

There you go again hands, abusing logic and jumping through hoops for your master Ernie Grunfeld. The board discussed JV in more than one thread did they not? This thread was very clear in it's purpose and the results are not ambiguous. People were not "all over the place" in how they felt about Jan Vesely BEFORE the draft.

I posted the link to the draft day thread. People can read what people wrote for themselves. I jumped through no hoops to do it. I had that bookmarked from before.

As for your EG is my master comment.

There is a difference between guys waiving the Do Not Draft flag on Jan Vesely before the draft, and the post-draft resignation of posters wishing for the best.

And in the link, you can read what people said right before the pick and right after it. That means more to me then what they thought a week or a month before. It shows what they would have done with all the marble on the table.

As for the expect.

Fri Jun 24, 2011 12:12 am by hands11
ESPN post draft

Winners of the draft

Jon picked the WIzards
Jeff V picked Dallas
Jay picked Utah

Not sure any of those teams were the winners. And the Wiz will beat CHI. IND won't win. And OKC is about to get bumped if they don't change their style of play. Why are these people the experts?

[dckingsfan]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is were it went down.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

And that is the key... it is one thing for a bunch of posters to get it wrong - it is completely different to have a FO continually get it wrong (they actually have resources and should be able to do a decent job).

It isn't that EG misses from time to time - he misses at a high rate. Jan Vesely is to FT shooting as EG is to the drafting.

EG has continually proven doubters wrong - he is worse than they thought

[DCZards]

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

Count me as one of those who got "played." I knew absolutely nothing about Ves so I could only hope that EG and his staff knew what they were doing when they drafted him at #6. I was obviously wrong. Turns out we should have drafted the guy I wanted--Leonard.

I disagree with those who contend that EG was the only GM who thought Ves was a top ten pick. My recall is that most GMs and other NBA folks had him slotted in the 6-8 range. I don't believe Jan was considered a reach at all at #6. So a lot of supposedly knowledgeable people were wrong about Ves...not just EG.

Unfortunately, the Zards are the only one who are paying for the Ves mistake. But, hey, I like the team we have now, especially its chemistry, and what it's been able to accomplish. Go Zards...beat the Bulls!

[hands11]

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is were it went down.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

And that is the key... it is one thing for a bunch of posters to get it wrong - it is completely different to have a FO continually get it wrong (they actually have resources and should be able to do a decent job).

It isn't that EG misses from time to time - he misses at a high rate. Jan Vesely is to FT shooting as EG is to the drafting.

But what you aren't including is that lots of GMs get it wrong along the way. That isn't in defense of EG but you have to include that in an honest conversation. And even when it looks like they get some right, it can still not work out. Personally, I think OKC is a hot mess with KD and Westbrook on the same team. Two great offensive players but I don't think they fit together or do they have the coach to fix it. So this great OKC model everyone talks about, might not be that at all. Actually, I can see how fragile that whole things is if they don't get it together and get bumped in the first round. It just might totally blow up.

Yeah they got KD, Wesbrook, Harden, Ibaka and Adams. Players most people like and that looks like great drafting. But they lost Harden who probably fits better next to KD and they don't have the balls to trade Westbrook to fix the problem. They paid Westbrook to much. And if they don't trade him, they don't have the coach to make him play in a way that best maximizes the teams total assets. 26 and 28 shots a game from your POINT GUARD with KD taking just as many is not playoff winning basketball. The team needs to pick which player it wants to build around and that's KD. Westbrook has too big a head to adapt his game they way they need him to so trade him already before the entire things blows up.

So you can draft great and still not be able to keep a winning team together that can win a title. That team is at 68M next year and they still won't be any better in the playoff then they are now until they move Westbrook and find a replacement for Perkins. They still have plenty of work to do.

And if they lose KD for nothing, they could easily find themselves as just another team. If it was me, I would build around KD and Ibaka and cash in on Westbrook. They should have kept Harden. Harden, KD and Ibaka would be nasty to build around. Specially with Adams in line to get better.

[hands11]

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

Count me as one of those who got "played." I knew absolutely nothing about Ves so I could only hope that EG and his staff knew what they were doing when they drafted him at #6. I was obviously wrong. Turns out we should have drafted the guy I wanted--Leonard.

I disagree with those who contend that EG was the only GM who thought Ves was a top ten pick. My recall is that most GMs and other NBA folks had him slotted in the 6-8 range. I don't believe Jan was considered a reach at all at #6. So a lot of supposedly knowledgeable people were wrong about Ves...not just EG.

Unfortunately, the Zards are the only one who are paying for the Ves mistake. But, hey, I like the team we have now, especially its chemistry, and what it's been able to accomplish. Go Zards...beat the Bulls!

There wasn't much to go on. I remember just a few vidoes. There was that one really great promo piece someone did for him with the fans going crazy that opened like a movie. Ves had great PR people to put something like that together. Then there was that one video that broke down his game. Not strong hand receiving the post pass. Can't shoot FTs. No that strong. His one good offensive move aside from transition dunks was supposed to be a quick first step one or two dribbles from the wing for a dunk. But that was as a SF on the elbow in space, and it took a while for people to understand they didn't draft him to be a SF, they drafted him to be a PF. There was intel that outlined that for those paying attention. People here keep thinking they would play him a SF. And he didn't even speak English. He had a lot to learn.

Moving him to PF meant investing a lot of time in transitioning him and adding body strength. He needed to learn a new position. That means court time. But he started off injured. It was the strike year so no summer camp or training to help him transition and a short season. But once he started playing, he did his running the floor Ves thing. He just wasn't strong enough to also defend at PF so he got pushed around. Then next season they had vets in front of him, Wall was injured and they had no PG for him to run with or feed him for opps. He road the bench and had lots of mental problems adjusting to Randy as his HC and riding the pines. But he got his head together and put in a better summer after that. Had a great summer camp and Euro games. Lead both teams in rebounding and steals. But Randy had no place for him in year three either. Wall was there. Ves played some productive ball when given a chance. But Randy would just ice him for games on end over investing in Booker.

Just a bad sequence of events for Ves who was a player they drafted to develop into a PF. I think he could have contributed more to the team this year if Randy used him correctly and found him more regular minutes and if they just feed him a few times of opps in the post like Denver did. Booker was clearly not the right player on an every night basis. Some nights that should have been Ves and Randy didn't do it that way.

I don't think the Ves story is over yet. Fit and timing has a lot to do with how a player like Ves works out. He is still very young. Just a 24 year old. You would have to ignore a lot to say his situation was ideal for him making the transition of position, country and language.

He is a good young man. I hope it works out for him. He could still be a lot of fun to watch if he can develop in the right situation. I hope he stays in DEN. Seems like a good fit for him with Faried, Mozgov, and Lawson. I like his hit in DEN.

[Illuminaire]

Hands,

There is a stark difference between what a number of people wanted before the draft, and how they elected to cope with the actual results.

Choosing to be positive in the face of frustrating circumstances does not mean you wanted those circumstances in the first place - as evidenced by the pre-draft poll and most pre-draft discussions. The tone of the board was very clear, in numbers and in quality. You can attempt to change history, but most of us were in those trenches. We remember.

Jan was a trainwreck that people saw coming a mile away. Well, not EG... and that's a problem. Even IF the majority of posters on this board thought that, despite all available evidence, Jan could be something special, it was Ernie Grunfeld's job to know better.

But he didn't. More damning, reports were coming out for months about how much the Wizards loved the kid before the draft even happened. They were organizationally locked in on a dud, and that speaks loudly of poor drafting process and bad decision making.

There are places where EG's record as a GM can be defended. They don't hold up well against the larger body of his work, but at least they exist. This? This isn't one of them.

[TGW]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Not really...a bunch of people were pissed, including me.