Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[Brenice]

The reason why Spurs are being effusively praised around here apparently went right over your head Brenice.

There were plenty of posters that wanted Belinelli, Fernandez, Splitter, Millsap, to name a few, but that's not exactly the point that one should focus on when comparing Grunfeld's tenure with how the Spurs operate.

The Nick Young's, Blatche's and McGee's in this league never would have made it onto the Spurs roster to begin with. Grunfeld didn't just draft those guys, he blew powdered sugar up their asses and made those spoiled brats the centerpiece of his rebuild.

Completely ignoring the blown lottery pick when he selected Vesely, or the lottery pick he flushed down the toilet in the Miller/Foye trade, Blatche's contract extension alone demonstrates how awful Grunfeld's decision making has been as Washington's GM.

Ernie IS NOT the victim of circumstances, he's 100% responsible for them, and to those posters having the nerve to invoke the Abe Pollin defense, shame on you.

I understand all of that surrounding the Spurs. Still don't matter if they aren't lucky to have the #1 pick when Duncan was available.

Nick Young and McGee were first round draft picks and are on rosters to this day. Blatche is playing well for Jersey, the talent is there. My problem is not drafting these immature players individually, but the Wizards certainly didn't need all 3 of them on the same roster and then with Arenas on that roster. I asked a question about who should have been the pick instead of Nick, JaVale, and Blatche and I get *CRICKETS*. Then I hear about Kawhi being passed over for Vesely.

I explained the owners role in what has been a mess of a franchise, just like the owners of Cleveland and the Clippers. Sure the Clippers are esxcellent right now, but Sterling had a reputation of not just being a racist, but a poor owner PERIOD. Abe was in the bad owner category similar to Sterling. He wanted the trade of Webber and ended up geting 10 cents on the dollar for him. We all know the criticism Abe would have received if he let Gil walk, even if injured. It wasn't too long ago that Abe was being called cheap for more than not just initially letting Juwan Howard walk. You know free agents dn't want to sign with a team with an owner with a reputation as being cheap. Blame Grunfeld. He did a lot of things pre-Grunfeld but you want me to believe everything was on Grunfeld. I'm focusing on what Ernie did under Ted. Tore down what was left from his tenure under Abe and built it to where they are now under Ted. I have never not once said Ernie should retain his job. I said Ernie will retain his job based on this past season. I didn't want Foye/Miller either, but I remember the circumstances.

I'll say it again, I don't Ernie Grunfeld as GM of the Wizards, just like you don't. Blame Ted(the owner) for keeping him.

[hands11]

San Antonio had the first pick in a draft where Duncan was available. That's where it starts.

Actually it started with David Robinson.

[hands11]

And drafting Ginobili in the 2nd rd.

And drafting Parker with the last pick in the 1st rd.

And drafting Splitter with a late 1st.

And trading for a mid-1st to draft Kawhi Leonard

But I'm sure their success has all to do with Duncan and very little to do with how well their organization is run.

I agree that San Antonio is an elite organization, with or without Duncan. They have drafted well and traded shrewdly. But without Duncan, they would not have been champions.

There is a thread on the PC Board that asks if Duncan is the all-time #1 #1 pick in terms of impact for the franchise who picked them. And Duncan looks like he is all-time #1 #1 when you consider say a Kareem, Shaq, or LeBron did not stay with the franchise that drafted them.

You get a GOAT level talent(all time top 10) and you are a championship contender. The Wizards have not had the opportunity to draft one of those players. Be it that the franchise is snake bitten or lucky, they just haven't. Their best draft pick in 45 years is John Wall. Hell, Cleveland will have 3 #1 #1 picks on its roster next season barring trade. Will any of them achieve all-time top 10 ranking? Will see. They had the #1 #1 and drafted LeBron a few years ago. You can be lucky and you have more than 1 GOAT level position player is available like Jordan, Durant, Wade, but Washington hasn't been that lucky either. We may be lucky with Beal. But that is the point...those players have to be available for you. Parker, Ginobli, Kawhi, and Splitter would peak at conference semi-finalists without Duncan.

And having a GOAT level talent doesn't mean your winning multiple titles. No one can do it alone. Duncan wouldn't have won squat had the Spurs not nailed some of those late round picks. They drafted TWO future HOF'ers with a late 1st & late 2nd.

The Cavs got lucky when they landed LeBron in '03. But they mucked up the roster they were surrounding him with and he couldn't win it alone... So they ended up losing him for basically nothing after 7 seasons of failure.

So it's not just about luck. We have had plenty of luck the last few years. Moving up for Wall. Moving up for the 3rd pick last year. Good health this season. Having the Nets tank to avoid Chicago in the 1st round. But it's about taking advantage of the opportunities that's been given. After 5 straight years of rebuilding with top 6 lottery picks, we only have Wall & Beal as a definite core to build around along with two big free agents looking for big paydays, so maybe just maybe Ernie isn't the guy to have blind faith in.

The rebuild was 4 years.

Apr 28, 2010 The Age of Ted begins
May 19, 2010 The Wizards win the lottery
Jun 25, 2010 Wizards draft John Wall

And in just 4 years, they went from that, to

Wall, Beal, TA, Nene, Gortat, Miller, Webster, Otto, Gooden, AH, Booker, Kevin S, Temple

and 2 wins in the 2nd round against the #1 seed.

And from those picks they got.
Wall, Beal and Otto.

It was only Ves that was the miss. You can't call Otto a miss. You might not want to call him a hit yet but you can't call him a miss yet. And by all indication of the vets on the team, he is a hit.

And we should get to see that next year.

I suspect as time goes on, its going to be more and more clear to those still lingering, the dividing line was Abe to Ted.

[Brenice]

The rebuild was 4 years.

Apr 28, 2010 The Age of Ted begins
May 19, 2010 The Wizards win the lottery
Jun 25, 2010 Wizards draft John Wall

And in just 4 years, they went from that, to

Wall, Beal, TA, Nene, Gortat, Miller, Webster, Otto, Gooden, AH, Booker, Kevin S, Temple

and 2 wins in the 2nd round against the #1 seed.

And from those picks they got.
Wall, Beal and Otto.

It was only Ves that was the miss. You can't call Otto a miss. You might not want to call him a hit yet but you can't call him a miss yet. And by all indication of the vets on the team, he is a hit.

And we should get to see that next year.

I suspect as time goes on, its going to be more and more clear to those still lingering, the dividing line was Abe to Ted.

They traded what, the 14th pick this year for Gortat. Was that a hit or miss if Gortat re-signs?

[LyricalRico]

They traded what, the 14th pick this year for Gortat. Was that a hit or miss if Gortat re-signs?

The #14 lottery selection is actually the Suns' own pick (they missed the playoffs this year). The pick conveyed to them from Washington is the #18. Assuming Gortat re-signs, I consider that to be a big hit.

[Dat2U]

Ugh I'm sorry, I can't continue to argue with these Ernie supporters over the same damn thing we've been arguing back and forth forever. Makes me want to slap the taste out someone's mouth lol. No one's position has changed nor is it going to... except hands11 but that's a daily occurrence.

[Brenice]

They traded what, the 14th pick this year for Gortat. Was that a hit or miss if Gortat re-signs?

The #14 lottery selection is actually the Suns' own pick (they missed the playoffs this year). The pick conveyed to them from Washington is the #18. Assuming Gortat re-signs, I consider that to be a big hit.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[tontoz]

Time and again i see the EG supporters forget all about Singleton. News flash, he was a 1st round pick ahead of Faried.

[leswizards]

Abe was not my favorite owner, but this continued invoking of his name as if it absolves EG of all his sins during the Abe tenure is bizarre and annoying. EG did a decent job assembling his team during the Abe tenure, but the reason that it fell apart is that Deshawn Stevenson, Antonio Daniels and Darius Songalia, all declined rapidly after peaking. Around the same time as those three rapidly declined, Caron Butler and Antwan Jamison regressed after getting huge contracts. Additionally, Brendan Haywood was injured and had an off season the seasons this was all going on. And furthermore, Gil was recovering from an injury and never returned to form. During this time, EG traded the fifth pick in the draft for 2 players that were viewed (by some) to be the missing pieces. One of those players, Mike Miller, was a player with minimal history of inuries (ie, he averaged about 70 games per season before the trade), who ended up having numerous nagging injuries his first season with the Wizards. The other, Randy Foye, had shown flashes of talent before the trade, but ended up being useless. I don't see how Abe is to blame for any of that. That is just EG's team imploding on him.

[dckingsfan]

All I have to say is: Scoreboard

IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes - now - 64%
2) Yes - end of season - 30%
3) No - 7%

The vocal minority - Fans of EG: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

[Brenice]

All I have to say is: Scoreboard

IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes - now - 64%
2) Yes - end of season - 30%
3) No - 7%

The vocal minority - Fans of EG: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

I voted yes. But Ted will probably vote NO.

[hands11]

Ugh I'm sorry, I can't continue to argue with these Ernie supporters over the same damn thing we've been arguing back and forth forever. Makes me want to slap the taste out someone's mouth lol. No one's position has changed nor is it going to... except hands11 but that's a daily occurrence.

Like what ? That's a crock.

[hands11]

Abe was not my favorite owner, but this continued invoking of his name as if it absolves EG of all his sins during the Abe tenure is bizarre and annoying. EG did a decent job assembling his team during the Abe tenure, but the reason that it fell apart is that Deshawn Stevenson, Antonio Daniels and Darius Songalia, all declined rapidly after peaking. Around the same time as those three rapidly declined, Caron Butler and Antwan Jamison regressed after getting huge contracts. Additionally, Brendan Haywood was injured and had an off season the seasons this was all going on. And furthermore, Gil was recovering from an injury and never returned to form. During this time, EG traded the fifth pick in the draft for 2 players that were viewed (by some) to be the missing pieces. One of those players, Mike Miller, was a player with minimal history of inuries (ie, he averaged about 70 games per season before the trade), who ended up having numerous nagging injuries his first season with the Wizards. The other, Randy Foye, had shown flashes of talent before the trade, but ended up being useless. I don't see how Abe is to blame for any of that. That is just EG's team imploding on him.

Actually I think I laid out the highlights of how it went wrong and with the dates. Gils injury. Abe maxing Gil. Abe wanting to go all in before he passed. Abe passing. And Gungate. That is pretty much what derailed things. Well that and Abe hand picking EFJ before hiring his GM such that EG couldn't get ride of him and couldn't even sign Tibbs because of him.

As for blaming Abe, I was doing it way before EG was ever the GM. Abe was a terrible NBA owner. Last time he was any good was back in the 70s when being a mom and pop franchise was the norm. He was actually a big fish back then. But the league passed him by many moons before EG got here. Abe was a nice man. He did a lot for the community. But he was a terrible NBA owner after the 70s.

In fact, EG joining the team was the best they had done in a long long time. They made the playoff 1 time in 15 years before EG showed up. Once he got here, they were in the playoff 4 of 5 years.

And for all the people that long for the Gil days. Who brought Gil to the team ? Who brought CB for Kwame ?

Funny thing is, I never took the position that EG was a great GM. But he sure hasn't sucked like people make it out. He has done some good things. I suspected he would look better with Ted as owner and he has. Why, because owner and GM are a team. And as time goes on, you see that more and more clearly. Ted and EG has built a much better team then Abe and EG and Abe and EG build a much better team then Abe and Wes.

[leswizards]

Actually I think I laid out the highlights of how it went wrong and with the dates. Gils injury. Abe maxing Gil. Abe wanting to go all in before he passed. Abe passing. And Gungate. That is pretty much what derailed things. Well that and Abe hand picking EFJ before hiring his GM such that EG couldn't get ride of him and couldn't even sign Tibbs because of him.

Abe was not responsible for Gils injury. EG signed Gil to the max contract. Do you have any evidence that he would not have signed him had it not been for Abe? Abe wanting to go all in and his passing had nothing to do with the team falling apart. Gungate occurred after the team had already fallen apart. Gungate was just the last nail in the coffin, and was a blessing in disguise. Rather than holding out hope that Gil could regain his old magic, the team quickly went into the rebuild mode. And, additionally, gungate involved 2 players that EG acquired.

I hated EFJ, but the team got to 4 playoff appearances with him, and the team struggled just as much after he was fired as before he was fired.

[leswizards]

Ted and EG has built a much better team then Abe and EG and Abe and EG build a much better team then Abe and Wes.

It is too early to say that, and EG has had more high picks under Ted than he did under Abe, and he has blown more of them under Ted than he did under Abe.

[hands11]

The reason why Spurs are being effusively praised around here apparently went right over your head Brenice.

There were plenty of posters that wanted Belinelli, Fernandez, Splitter, Millsap, to name a few, but that's not exactly the point that one should focus on when comparing Grunfeld's tenure with how the Spurs operate.

The Nick Young's, Blatche's and McGee's in this league never would have made it onto the Spurs roster to begin with. Grunfeld didn't just draft those guys, he blew powdered sugar up their asses and made those spoiled brats the centerpiece of his rebuild.

Completely ignoring the blown lottery pick when he selected Vesely, or the lottery pick he flushed down the toilet in the Miller/Foye trade, Blatche's contract extension alone demonstrates how awful Grunfeld's decision making has been as Washington's GM.

Ernie IS NOT the victim of circumstances, he's 100% responsible for them, and to those posters having the nerve to invoke the Abe Pollin defense, shame on you.

I have zero remorse over pointing out that Abe was a terrible owner after the 70s because I have been saying that since the 80s.

The fact that people don't see that is amazing.

Curse of les boulez ? Try something a little more obvious like terrible owner. The same thing that is at the heart of every crappy sport team. Where the Redskins cursed or did Dan Snyder suck ? Where the Orioles cursed or did Peter Angelos suck.

Where the Skins just lucky before, or was J Kent Cooke an awesome owner ?

[hands11]

Actually I think I laid out the highlights of how it went wrong and with the dates. Gils injury. Abe maxing Gil. Abe wanting to go all in before he passed. Abe passing. And Gungate. That is pretty much what derailed things. Well that and Abe hand picking EFJ before hiring his GM such that EG couldn't get ride of him and couldn't even sign Tibbs because of him.

Abe was not responsible for Gils injury. EG signed Gil to the max contract. Do you have any evidence that he would not have signed him had it not been for Abe? Abe wanting to go all in and his passing had nothing to do with the team falling apart. Gungate occurred after the team had already fallen apart. Gungate was just the last nail in the coffin, and was a blessing in disguise. Rather than holding out hope that Gil could regain his old magic, the team quickly went into the rebuild mode. And, additionally, gungate involved 2 players that EG acquired.

I hated EFJ, but the team got to 4 playoff appearances with him, and the team struggled just as much after he was fired as before he was fired.

Who said Abe was responsible for Gils injury ?

And for the 1000th time, NO player gets signed to a mega max by a GM. Not unless that GM has some special powers or an ownership stake. Owners decide that. They ink the checks. Its their money. Its their franchise. It was Abe who committed to signing Gil publicly. It was Abe who called Gil in China. It was Abe who did that after 2 years of Gil being injured. Just like Abe decided to sign EFJ on a gut feeling before he hired his GM. And Gil being signed to the mega max is at the heart of why the team blow up. Abe passing ..yes.. that was the nail in the coffin. That finally set the line so they could rebuild. Something I fully expected to happen once Abe passed.

And just like it was Abe that signed Gil to that contract, its also true that Ted signed Wall to a max early. Not EG.

[DCZards]

All I have to say is: Scoreboard

IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes - now - 64%
2) Yes - end of season - 30%
3) No - 7%

The vocal minority - Fans of EG: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

Well, that does it...the handful of Zards fans on RealGM have cast their ballots...EG must go.

[hands11]

Ted and EG has built a much better team then Abe and EG and Abe and EG build a much better team then Abe and Wes.

It is too early to say that, and EG has had more high picks under Ted than he did under Abe, and he has blown more of them under Ted than he did under Abe.

Yes he has had more high picks. You think that is by accident.

Abe was the master of the quick fix. He did it for decades. When did you start watching this team ?

Ted said from the beginning, we are going to suck. We are going to build through the draft. Its doing to be painful but we are going to do it that way. That's why we have Wall, Beal and Otto.

Yeah, it takes some luck. But you also set yourself up for luck. Getting the #1 was awesome luck. Getting the #3 and CHA taking MKG was awesome luck. So was having Beal in that draft. We will see about Otto but I'm holding out hope he shines next year. Getting bumped down to #6 wasn't so lucky. As for what they did in that draft, it wasn't what I wanted but I've gotten over it as I have other moves I didn't like. Why? Because it worked out anyway. 4 years from a hard reboot with the dead weight of that Gil mega max contract, him injured, gungate and the team getting sold to 2nd round 2 wins in the playoff and what they have now. Thats how. I just hope it keeps working out from here.

And for the record, SAS was super lucky D Robinson and Sean Elliott were so injured the year before the Duncan draft and super lucky to landed the #1. Just like they were lucky to get the #1 when D Robinson was in the draft.

And some times you don't even need to make your own luck. Look at CLE. Three #1s in 4 years.

[tontoz]

All I have to say is: Scoreboard

IS IT TIME TO FIRE ERNIE GRUNFELD?

1) Yes - now - 64%
2) Yes - end of season - 30%
3) No - 7%

The vocal minority - Fans of EG: A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

Well, that does it...the handful of Zards fans on RealGM have cast their ballots...EG must go.

Actually it was only a handful that voted no. 57 voted yes