Ruzious wrote:You mean like Giannis until this season? Simmons' shooting has been basically the same as Giannis' first 6 seasons.
I just don’t see the endgame in trading Beal for Simmons.
If the Wizards are moving Beal it’s because the team around him isn’t good enough to win. Well if the supporting cast isn’t good enough for Beal, it won’t be for Simmons either. He’s not carrying your team to title contention without another superstar teammate - but he makes your floor too high to tank for that superstar in the draft. Star FAs aren’t flocking to DC in free agency ,either.
Beal holds a lot of value to our franchise and league at large, cashing that in to build a Ben Simmons-led treadmill team instead of swinging for the fences would be disappointing. The stacked 2021 draft class has potential stars like Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley who’ve dominated older competition in front of scouts. The 2022 draft class is the double draft featuring a record number of 5-star prospects. If Wash do eventually field offers for Beal , in any deal they should be seeking unprotected picks from both the 2021 and 2022 drafts , along with cost-controlled young players.
To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.
Yea...I hoped John would learn to shoot too yet here we are.
Illmatic12 wrote:I just don’t see the endgame in trading Beal for Simmons.
If the Wizards are moving Beal it’s because the team around him isn’t good enough to win. Well if the supporting cast isn’t good enough for Beal, it won’t be for Simmons either. He’s not carrying your team to title contention without another superstar teammate - but he makes your floor too high to tank for that superstar in the draft. Star FAs aren’t flocking to DC in free agency ,either.
Beal holds a lot of value to our franchise and league at large, cashing that in to build a Ben Simmons-led treadmill team instead of swinging for the fences would be disappointing. The stacked 2021 draft class has potential stars like Cade Cunningham, Evan Mobley who’ve dominated older competition in front of scouts. The 2022 draft class is the double draft featuring a record number of 5-star prospects. If Wash do eventually field offers for Beal , in any deal they should be seeking unprotected picks from both the 2021 and 2022 drafts , along with cost-controlled young players.
To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.
Yea...I hoped John would learn to shoot too yet here we are.
Well, the subject just doesn't go away. Here's the simple, plain truth in 2 facts: you build a better basketball team by getting better players. Period. Ben Simmons is a better basketball player than Brad Beal. Period.
Is that a criticism of Bradley Beal? No, of course not!
Beal for JJ Redick, salary filler, Pels 2020 first, our own 2020 second round pick back (which they own), Lakers horde of pick swaps/late picks acquired in the AD deal.
I think it's a solid deal. The last thing the Pels need to do is to sit around and hope to build through the draft again. We don't see anything fantastic up front--maybe if we're lucky a top 3 pick in a bad draft but more likely a middling 5-10 pick, our own second this year, then waiting a while for returns on the Laker deal.
Meanwhile Pels can run Jrue, Brad, Zion, Ingram which should be playoff tier very quickly.
Dark Faze wrote:What do people think of this during the summer:
Beal for JJ Redick, salary filler, Pels 2020 first, our own 2020 second round pick back (which they own), Lakers horde of pick swaps/late picks acquired in the AD deal.
I think it's a solid deal. The last thing the Pels need to do is to sit around and hope to build through the draft again. We don't see anything fantastic up front--maybe if we're lucky a top 3 pick in a bad draft but more likely a middling 5-10 pick, our own second this year, then waiting a while for returns on the Laker deal.
Meanwhile Pels can run Jrue, Brad, Zion, Ingram which should be playoff tier very quickly.
I would want Lonzo who has started to play really well as of late.
Dark Faze wrote:What do people think of this during the summer:
Beal for JJ Redick, salary filler, Pels 2020 first, our own 2020 second round pick back (which they own), Lakers horde of pick swaps/late picks acquired in the AD deal.
I think it's a solid deal. The last thing the Pels need to do is to sit around and hope to build through the draft again. We don't see anything fantastic up front--maybe if we're lucky a top 3 pick in a bad draft but more likely a middling 5-10 pick, our own second this year, then waiting a while for returns on the Laker deal.
Meanwhile Pels can run Jrue, Brad, Zion, Ingram which should be playoff tier very quickly.
New Orleans has the 3rd easiest remaining schedule and Zion returning soon. They are likely going to make the playoffs this season , so we would be trading Beal for a 35yo SG on an expiring and a bunch of mid/late firsts.
The only way NOP could get away with that robbery is by sending us Lonzo and Hayes as sweeteners.
Dark Faze wrote:What do people think of this during the summer:
Beal for JJ Redick, salary filler, Pels 2020 first, our own 2020 second round pick back (which they own), Lakers horde of pick swaps/late picks acquired in the AD deal.
I think it's a solid deal. The last thing the Pels need to do is to sit around and hope to build through the draft again. We don't see anything fantastic up front--maybe if we're lucky a top 3 pick in a bad draft but more likely a middling 5-10 pick, our own second this year, then waiting a while for returns on the Laker deal.
Meanwhile Pels can run Jrue, Brad, Zion, Ingram which should be playoff tier very quickly.
New Orleans has the 3rd easiest remaining schedule and Zion returning soon. They are likely going to make the playoffs this season , so we would be trading Beal for a 35yo SG on an expiring and a bunch of mid/late firsts.
The only way NOP could get away with that robbery is by sending us Lonzo and Hayes as sweeteners.
And I don't really care all that much for Lonzo and Hayes TBH.
I don't like this deal. If we trade Beal, I want one guy who is a surefire star or at least two lottery picks plus some other stuff. Right now, the only plausible deals I can see are Beal for Simmons or Beal to Denver for Harris, MPJ, Monte Morris and some 1sts.
Dark Faze wrote:What do people think of this during the summer:
Beal for JJ Redick, salary filler, Pels 2020 first, our own 2020 second round pick back (which they own), Lakers horde of pick swaps/late picks acquired in the AD deal.
I think it's a solid deal. The last thing the Pels need to do is to sit around and hope to build through the draft again. We don't see anything fantastic up front--maybe if we're lucky a top 3 pick in a bad draft but more likely a middling 5-10 pick, our own second this year, then waiting a while for returns on the Laker deal.
Meanwhile Pels can run Jrue, Brad, Zion, Ingram which should be playoff tier very quickly.
New Orleans has the 3rd easiest remaining schedule and Zion returning soon. They are likely going to make the playoffs this season , so we would be trading Beal for a 35yo SG on an expiring and a bunch of mid/late firsts.
The only way NOP could get away with that robbery is by sending us Lonzo and Hayes as sweeteners.
And I don't really care all that much for Lonzo and Hayes TBH.
I don't like this deal. If we trade Beal, I want one guy who is a surefire star or at least two lottery picks plus some other stuff. Right now, the only plausible deals I can see are Beal for Simmons or Beal to Denver for Harris, MPJ, Monte Morris and some 1sts.
I definitely get your perspective, though I think you're a little more excited than I am about the Denver haul. Getting MPJ sounds good on paper, but then you realize he's that awkward player that shows enough to get a max while still being injury prone and not truly knowing what you have, Monte with more usage will end up just going to whoever is willing to pay him in free agency, Harris is a bad contract and they'll for sure give you bad pick value with future firsts.
I don't trust Simmons. I have no reason to believe he'd willingly extend with us if that deal gets made. We'll have Brooks awkwardly trying to make it work between John and Ben and Ben will simply leave in free agency, or agree to a deal and then cry later and force his way out.
The Pels deal is a gamble for sure. But controlling the destiny of the Lakers picks from 2022-25 is interesting. AD is injury prone is being relied on to play a lot of minutes and will have (assumingly) deep playoff runs. It's similar with LeBron minus the injury prone thing, except he'll probably want to close out his career with the Lakers and will be 37/38 when the first Laker pick conveys. I think there's great potential for those picks to have strong value when the time comes.
Meanwhile, maybe Hayes, a 15-20 pels pick this year and our own 2nd rounder back this year, and a lot of freed up cap space to look forward to. People don't value cap space enough. You can't predict what will happen, but many times assets just fall into the hands of teams with cap space because they are the only one that can take on a contract or facilitate a deal.
It can all go bad and the Lakers manage to somehow still be very good so the pick swaps are meaningless of course. It's also possible we hold onto Beal until it's clear he and John play 45 win basketball together and we're lucky to move him for a mid first in the future.
Illmatic12 wrote:New Orleans has the 3rd easiest remaining schedule and Zion returning soon. They are likely going to make the playoffs this season , so we would be trading Beal for a 35yo SG on an expiring and a bunch of mid/late firsts.
The only way NOP could get away with that robbery is by sending us Lonzo and Hayes as sweeteners.
And I don't really care all that much for Lonzo and Hayes TBH.
I don't like this deal. If we trade Beal, I want one guy who is a surefire star or at least two lottery picks plus some other stuff. Right now, the only plausible deals I can see are Beal for Simmons or Beal to Denver for Harris, MPJ, Monte Morris and some 1sts.
I definitely get your perspective, though I think you're a little more excited than I am about the Denver haul. Getting MPJ sounds good on paper, but then you realize he's that awkward player that shows enough to get a max while still being injury prone and not truly knowing what you have, Monte with more usage will end up just going to whoever is willing to pay him in free agency, Harris is a bad contract and they'll for sure give you bad pick value with future firsts.
I don't trust Simmons. I have no reason to believe he'd willingly extend with us if that deal gets made. We'll have Brooks awkwardly trying to make it work between John and Ben and Ben will simply leave in free agency, or agree to a deal and then cry later and force his way out.
The Pels deal is a gamble for sure. But controlling the destiny of the Lakers picks from 2022-25 is interesting. AD is injury prone is being relied on to play a lot of minutes and will have (assumingly) deep playoff runs. It's similar with LeBron minus the injury prone thing, except he'll probably want to close out his career with the Lakers and will be 37/38 when the first Laker pick conveys. I think there's great potential for those picks to have strong value when the time comes.
Meanwhile, maybe Hayes, a 15-20 pels pick this year and our own 2nd rounder back this year, and a lot of freed up cap space to look forward to. People don't value cap space enough. You can't predict what will happen, but many times assets just fall into the hands of teams with cap space because they are the only one that can take on a contract or facilitate a deal.
It can all go bad and the Lakers manage to somehow still be very good so the pick swaps are meaningless of course. It's also possible we hold onto Beal until it's clear he and John play 45 win basketball together and we're lucky to move him for a mid first in the future.
As far as I'm concerned those Lakers picks aren't gonna be worth jack..we'd be lucky if any of them is better than the 20th pick.
Hate to break it to you but the Lakers aren't going to be bad for a while. They're going to have max capsace in the very near future. LA market combined with (now) recent history of success will surely attract multiple stars for years to come. Only reason they dipped for a few years was because they overpaid a washed Kobe giving him a legacy contract past his prime . That isn't likely to happen this time around bc they set themselves up with future flexibility. Have a look at their payroll:
LAL currently have two top 5 superstars, and can create a 30% max slot in 2021. Oh and if they don't get anyone in 2021, they will just sign 1yr deals and roll the space over to 2022 when Lebron is off the books and they'll have a prime Anthony Davis + gobs of capspace.. per Spotrac these are some of the potential FAs they could recruit to pair with a 29yo Davis in 2022:
James Harden (age 33), John Wall (32), Russell Westbrook (33), Kevin Durant (34), Steph Curry (34), Lebron James (37 - he could still be a top 10 player at that age honestly), Bradley Beal (29), Kemba Walker (32), Jimmy Butler (33), Kawhi Leonard (31), Paul George (32), Kyrie Irving (30), Jrue Holiday (32)
There's a common hashtag that is made for these scenarios .. #SoWizards I'll give you an example : Washington trades Beal to New Orleans -> he gets there and realizes they're too young to win a title -> Beal leaves NO in 2022 FA to join Davis and the Lakers, also recruiting his former co-star John Wall to opt out and reunite with him in Los Angeles, thus ruining the value of all our incoming picks for perpetuity. How do I know this would happen? Because #SoWizards, that's why
If the Wizards do trade Bradley Beal I hope they make a trade similar to what OKC did when they sent Paul George to the Clippers.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander is going to be a very good player. Chris Paul is playing as well as he has played in the past several seasons. They may trade Chris Paul this year because his trade value is not as low as it was.
Look around the league and see which players are underrated like SGA.
Because of the manner and timing of Beal signing his extension, he cannot be traded until the Summer.
Everything I've read so far projects 2020 as a really weak draft so I'm not sure the Wiz are anxious for more 2020 picks.
Finally, with the Wiz seemingly liking Bryant, Wagner, Rui, Brown, Matthews, Bonga, Schofield, and now AP -- Thats a lot of young players. If you add in the high lotto pick and the high 2nd rounder -- any more really young players would probably be counterproductive.
Ruzious wrote:To me, for a team like the Wiz which doesn't have a player than can carry a team to some extent, it's about talent first and then about things like contract, age, production history, and fit. I think Simmons checks all the boxes over Beal except for fit. And fit can be changed.
Yea...I hoped John would learn to shoot too yet here we are.
Well, the subject just doesn't go away. Here's the simple, plain truth in 2 facts: you build a better basketball team by getting better players. Period. Ben Simmons is a better basketball player than Brad Beal. Period.
Is that a criticism of Bradley Beal? No, of course not!
I'm not debating that Ben is better than Brad, but I have a bias against players that can't shoot worth a damn. It gets frustrating rather quickly. And he'll just just become the new John Wall for ya'll to crap on.
The guy who can't shoot made 12 of 14 shots yesterday scoring 34 points... and had 12 rebounds, 12 assists vs 3 to's, 5 steals, and 2 blocks.
Did I mention that Giannis won the MVP last season without being able to shoot, so to speak? I did? Oh. Did I mention that the Bucks led the NBA in wins last season - in part - because they did go to the trouble of adding players that complement him? They even have a PG who's very similar to Wall - though he's not as good a passer as Wall.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Ruzious wrote:The guy who can't shoot made 12 of 14 shots yesterday scoring 34 points... and had 12 rebounds, 12 assists vs 3 to's, 5 steals, and 2 blocks.
Did I mention that Giannis won the MVP last season without being able to shoot, so to speak? I did? Oh. Did I mention that the Bucks led the NBA in wins last season - in part - because they did go to the trouble of adding players that complement him? They even have a PG who's very similar to Wall - though he's not as good a passer as Wall.
Ruzious wrote:The guy who can't shoot made 12 of 14 shots yesterday scoring 34 points... and had 12 rebounds, 12 assists vs 3 to's, 5 steals, and 2 blocks.
Did I mention that Giannis won the MVP last season without being able to shoot, so to speak? I did? Oh. Did I mention that the Bucks led the NBA in wins last season - in part - because they did go to the trouble of adding players that complement him? They even have a PG who's very similar to Wall - though he's not as good a passer as Wall.
Do you think Philly would trade him for Beal?
I wouldn't have thought Philly's coach would publicly whine about him not taking jump shots.
It would definitely take more than Beal, and it would depend on how Philly does in the playoffs. Obviously it can't be done this season, because the Wiz are not permitted to trade Beal until after the season is over.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Ruzious wrote:The guy who can't shoot made 12 of 14 shots yesterday scoring 34 points... and had 12 rebounds, 12 assists vs 3 to's, 5 steals, and 2 blocks.
Did I mention that Giannis won the MVP last season without being able to shoot, so to speak? I did? Oh. Did I mention that the Bucks led the NBA in wins last season - in part - because they did go to the trouble of adding players that complement him? They even have a PG who's very similar to Wall - though he's not as good a passer as Wall.
Do you think Philly would trade him for Beal?
I wouldn't have thought Philly's coach would publicly whine about him not taking jump shots.
It would definitely take more than Beal, and it would depend on how Philly does in the playoffs. Obviously it can't be done this season, because the Wiz are not permitted to trade Beal until after the season is over.
If Philly disappoints in the playoffs and part of the problem appears to be Simmons' inability to shoot, then I think the Simmons for Beal trade is viable. It would help if Beal has a strong second-half and starts looking more like the Beal of last year. It would help even more if Wall gets back and Beal looks even better when he is no longer the focus of so much defensive attention.
The bottom line is that I'm not sure who Philly could trade Simmons for that would get back a quality pick-and-roll operator and catch-and-shoot threat in the prime of his career who is better than Beal.
JWizmentality wrote: Do you think Philly would trade him for Beal?
I wouldn't have thought Philly's coach would publicly whine about him not taking jump shots.
It would definitely take more than Beal, and it would depend on how Philly does in the playoffs. Obviously it can't be done this season, because the Wiz are not permitted to trade Beal until after the season is over.
If Philly disappoints in the playoffs and part of the problem appears to be Simmons' inability to shoot, then I think the Simmons for Beal trade is viable. It would help if Beal has a strong second-half and starts looking more like the Beal of last year. It would help even more if Wall gets back and Beal looks even better when he is no longer the focus of so much defensive attention.
The bottom line is that I'm not sure who Philly could trade Simmons for that would get back a quality pick-and-roll operator and catch-and-shoot threat in the prime of his career who is better than Beal.
And probably the one thing Beal needs to re-prove for Philly to value him that highly is that he's an excellent 3 point shooter.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
nate33 wrote:If Philly disappoints in the playoffs and part of the problem appears to be Simmons' inability to shoot, then I think the Simmons for Beal trade is viable.
Yup.
(1) Philly's not even thinking about trading Simmons until they see what this current roster can do in the playoffs - if this current team construction looks unworkable again, Simmons is easily the player they could (and would - I'm assuming moving Embiid is a non-option) trade for the largest return. Additionally, I'm still pretty convinced that Embiid/Simmons is the ultimate conflict of abilities at play here (although Horford shooting the three at anything like the percentages he has in the last few years would certainly help).
(2) Beal, as has been mentioned, can't be traded until the offseason.
(3) Simmons won't be traded - to us or elsewhere - until his contract extension kicks in this summer, as the higher cap figure would allow him to be sent out without additional cap ballast (or at least without another highly-paid player) in exchange for a max player.
Personally, I'm all for it - I find Simmons utterly fascinating, and would love to see what he could do on a team that spent a few years building around him specifically. The elephant in the room is that Wall and Simmons aren't intuitively a great pairing, but I wouldn't mind giving it a try and then going from there.
Btw, if we do trade with Philly, I'd get Shake Milton. His NBA stats have been terrible in very limited time, but his G League stats have been terrific. He's a 23 year old version of Jordan McRae - even has the 7 foot wingspan.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
Good call, Ruz -- I've had my eye on him as well. His numbers w/ Philly last year (in 270 minutes) were quite good. This year, for some weird reason he's turned the ball over a lot -- last year it was 1 TO per 40 minutes; this year it's 5 !!
I have no idea why I'm so opposed to Ben Simmons imo. I just have a bad feeling about him. Same with Zion. same I had the night we drafted Jan and when people asked be about Bennet . Idk just some bad vibes I got.
