Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[dckingsfan]

There are places where EG's record as a GM can be defended. They don't hold up well against the larger body of his work, but at least they exist. This? This isn't one of them.

Yep, exactly right... it isn't one swing and miss - it is an extended set of continual swing and misses. Kind of like if Shaq had he decided he was a 3 point specialist... That is EG as a GM...

[dckingsfan]

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

And that is the key... it is one thing for a bunch of posters to get it wrong - it is completely different to have a FO continually get it wrong (they actually have resources and should be able to do a decent job).

It isn't that EG misses from time to time - he misses at a high rate. Jan Vesely is to FT shooting as EG is to the drafting.

But what you aren't including is that lots of GMs get it wrong along the way. That isn't in defense of EG but you have to include that in an honest conversation. And even when it looks like they get some right, it can still not work out. Personally, I think OKC is a hot mess with KD and Westbrook on the same team. Two great offensive players but I don't think they fit together or do they have the coach to fix it. So this great OKC model everyone talks about, might not be that at all. Actually, I can see how fragile that whole things is if they don't get it together and get bumped in the first round. It just might totally blow up.

Yeah they got KD, Wesbrook, Harden, Ibaka and Adams. Players most people like and that looks like great drafting. But they lost Harden who probably fits better next to KD and they don't have the balls to trade Westbrook to fix the problem. They paid Westbrook to much. And if they don't trade him, they don't have the coach to make him play in a way that best maximizes the teams total assets. 26 and 28 shots a game from your POINT GUARD with KD taking just as many is not playoff winning basketball. The team needs to pick which player it wants to build around and that's KD. Westbrook has too big a head to adapt his game they way they need him to so trade him already before the entire things blows up.

So you can draft great and still not be able to keep a winning team together that can win a title. That team is at 68M next year and they still won't be any better in the playoff then they are now until they move Westbrook and find a replacement for Perkins. They still have plenty of work to do.

And if they lose KD for nothing, they could easily find themselves as just another team. If it was me, I would build around KD and Ibaka and cash in on Westbrook. They should have kept Harden. Harden, KD and Ibaka would be nasty to build around. Specially with Adams in line to get better.

And OKC has two more picks this year - and they will probably hit on one of them. Just like they hit on Steven Adams this year... and so it continues. There is a reason that their FO was rated so high.

[montestewart]

Yep! Not all haters at all. Lots of people giving EG "the benefit of the doubt," trying to "keep an open mind," looking for "the silver lining." All in all, a very reasoned group. Boy did we get played.

Count me as one of those who got "played." I knew absolutely nothing about Ves so I could only hope that EG and his staff knew what they were doing when they drafted him at #6. I was obviously wrong. Turns out we should have drafted the guy I wanted--Leonard.

I disagree with those who contend that EG was the only GM who thought Ves was a top ten pick. My recall is that most GMs and other NBA folks had him slotted in the 6-8 range. I don't believe Jan was considered a reach at all at #6. So a lot of supposedly knowledgeable people were wrong about Ves...not just EG.

Unfortunately, the Zards are the only one who are paying for the Ves mistake. But, hey, I like the team we have now, especially its chemistry, and what it's been able to accomplish. Go Zards...beat the Bulls!

Yeah, I can't say what other GMs were thinking (EG's not the only GM I don't want). My main points were 1) Vesely wasn't nearly the consensus pick at 6 that Wall, Beal, and Porter were (granted, the further down you go, the more divergence of opinion you get), and 2) many posters were trying to stay open minded, but that open-mindedness has limits.

As someone who likes Wall, thinks Beal has a ton of potential, thinks Porter is a long way from being declared a bust, and thinks Booker has been a great value pick, I still don't really trust EG's ability to restock the team through the draft. If he proves otherwise, hopefully I'll recognize that and change my view. He could start by not reflexively selling this year's 2nd. Take a flyer on some unsung big. That's the place to swing for the fences.

[DCZards]

As someone who likes Wall, thinks Beal has a ton of potential, thinks Porter is a long way from being declared a bust, and thinks Booker has been a great value pick, I still don't really trust EG's ability to restock the team through the draft. If he proves otherwise, hopefully I'll recognize that and change my view. He could start by not reflexively selling this year's 2nd. Take a flyer on some unsung big. That's the place to swing for the fences.

I think the immediate future for the Zards will not depend on restocking through the draft but on trading for a quality young big man or signing a top free agent in the next 2-3 years. It's possible that they get that kind of talent in the middle of the first round where they'll be drafting in 2015--assuming they continue to make the playoffs--but not likely. And they might find a good player in the second round, as you suggest, but second round players are rarely major contributors on playoff teams.

I'm not discounting the importance of drafting well...just pointing out that you can't depend on the draft as the primary source for improving your team, especially if you're not in the lottery or close to it.

[hands11]

Hands,

There is a stark difference between what a number of people wanted before the draft, and how they elected to cope with the actual results.

Choosing to be positive in the face of frustrating circumstances does not mean you wanted those circumstances in the first place - as evidenced by the pre-draft poll and most pre-draft discussions. The tone of the board was very clear, in numbers and in quality. You can attempt to change history, but most of us were in those trenches. We remember.

Jan was a trainwreck that people saw coming a mile away. Well, not EG... and that's a problem. Even IF the majority of posters on this board thought that, despite all available evidence, Jan could be something special, it was Ernie Grunfeld's job to know better.

But he didn't. More damning, reports were coming out for months about how much the Wizards loved the kid before the draft even happened. They were organizationally locked in on a dud, and that speaks loudly of poor drafting process and bad decision making.

There are places where EG's record as a GM can be defended. They don't hold up well against the larger body of his work, but at least they exist. This? This isn't one of them.

All I heard was Charlie Brown's teacher when I read that.

I posted the link to the draft thread so people could read what people where posting leading up to and during and after the draft regard the entire draft. All the picks.

"Choosing to be positive in the face of frustrating circumstances does not mean you wanted those circumstances in the first place"

Now this I found hilarious that you posted that. Since I often do this, I hope you remember what you just wrote. Just to funny.

Oh, and stop with drama... "may attempt to change history"

[TGW]

All I heard was Charlie Brown's teacher when I read that.

Is there any need to be a condescending little prick? You complain about people attacking you, but you're posting style is borderline trollish in nature. Get off your little highhorse, and post with some decency. Maybe then people will respect your opinion.

[hands11]

No hindsight. Looking-back on the 2011 draft, BEFORE the 6th pick was made.
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1114842&start=15

That wasn't the thread were it was really talked about. That thing is only 3 pages.

Here is how it went down. People were all over the place.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1121354&start=500

Not really...a bunch of people were pissed, including me.

Not really what ? Your reply doesn't even make sense to what I wrote.

[dckingsfan]

So much for your truce hands

[Illuminaire]

Hands,

Practice what you preach, or get off the pulpit.

[hands11]

And that is the key... it is one thing for a bunch of posters to get it wrong - it is completely different to have a FO continually get it wrong (they actually have resources and should be able to do a decent job).

It isn't that EG misses from time to time - he misses at a high rate. Jan Vesely is to FT shooting as EG is to the drafting.

But what you aren't including is that lots of GMs get it wrong along the way. That isn't in defense of EG but you have to include that in an honest conversation. And even when it looks like they get some right, it can still not work out. Personally, I think OKC is a hot mess with KD and Westbrook on the same team. Two great offensive players but I don't think they fit together or do they have the coach to fix it. So this great OKC model everyone talks about, might not be that at all. Actually, I can see how fragile that whole things is if they don't get it together and get bumped in the first round. It just might totally blow up.

Yeah they got KD, Wesbrook, Harden, Ibaka and Adams. Players most people like and that looks like great drafting. But they lost Harden who probably fits better next to KD and they don't have the balls to trade Westbrook to fix the problem. They paid Westbrook to much. And if they don't trade him, they don't have the coach to make him play in a way that best maximizes the teams total assets. 26 and 28 shots a game from your POINT GUARD with KD taking just as many is not playoff winning basketball. The team needs to pick which player it wants to build around and that's KD. Westbrook has too big a head to adapt his game they way they need him to so trade him already before the entire things blows up.

So you can draft great and still not be able to keep a winning team together that can win a title. That team is at 68M next year and they still won't be any better in the playoff then they are now until they move Westbrook and find a replacement for Perkins. They still have plenty of work to do.

And if they lose KD for nothing, they could easily find themselves as just another team. If it was me, I would build around KD and Ibaka and cash in on Westbrook. They should have kept Harden. Harden, KD and Ibaka would be nasty to build around. Specially with Adams in line to get better.

And OKC has two more picks this year - and they will probably hit on one of them. Just like they hit on Steven Adams this year... and so it continues. There is a reason that their FO was rated so high.

What continues ? Them getting lots of good talent and getting bounced in the first round ?

Lets see what happens this year with OKC before we go celebrating them to much. I pointed out what I saw as their mistakes. Westbrook and KD make way to much combined and shot way to much combined. They don't play good enough defense. Their coach is weak and the traded the player they probably should have keep.

Did you actually read all of what I wrote ? If that team get bounced in the first round to MEM they are in a world of hurt. Apparently there is more to building a team then drafting well.

[noworriesinmd]

Bill Simmons LOVES Ernie

http://grantland.com/features/nba-playo ... om-round-1

We should definitely reup him!

Off the see my WIZ

[hands11]

As someone who likes Wall, thinks Beal has a ton of potential, thinks Porter is a long way from being declared a bust, and thinks Booker has been a great value pick, I still don't really trust EG's ability to restock the team through the draft. If he proves otherwise, hopefully I'll recognize that and change my view. He could start by not reflexively selling this year's 2nd. Take a flyer on some unsung big. That's the place to swing for the fences.

I think the immediate future for the Zards will not depend on restocking through the draft but on trading for a quality young big man or signing a top free agent in the next 2-3 years. It's possible that they get that kind of talent in the middle of the first round where they'll be drafting in 2015--assuming they continue to make the playoffs--but not likely. And they might find a good player in the second round, as you suggest, but second round players are rarely major contributors on playoff teams.

I'm not discounting the importance of drafting well...just pointing out that you can't depend on the draft as the primary source for improving your team, especially if you're not in the lottery or close to it.

Exactly. They have more options then just the draft and beside, they already did restock using it. They got Wall, Beal, and Otto as the projected key pieces. That's not even mentioning Booker and Kevin. Yeah, the 2011 draft was a brain fart. That's not new news to me ( even though the experts thought they did well). I and other said it at the time. But the world didn't end in 2011.

Look, I'm not even trying to say other peoples picks ( including my own ) might not have worked out. Its not about that. Its about the BS logic that get used around here to often that just ignores facts. Stuff like talking about how the team was a dead end as soon as they made the Nene and TA/Okafor trade. No, its wasn't a dead end and it still isn't.

I so hope they strike gold and make it to the finals. I will so laugh my ass off.

[hands11]

All I heard was Charlie Brown's teacher when I read that.

Is there any need to be a condescending little prick? You complain about people attacking you, but you're posting style is borderline trollish in nature. Get off your little highhorse, and post with some decency. Maybe then people will respect your opinion.

If you haven't noticed, I only act that way to people that act that way to me first. And even then I bit my tongue a ton.

Oh God. Is Trollish your default reply to everything. If anyone is troll, its you. LOL... I just read the rest of what you wrote. You have got to be kidding. You of all people talk about posting with decency.

Guess what TGW. People do respect my opinion. The fact you don't is not something that concerns me. Now if you at some point you learn to do the things you say I don't do ( hilarious you wrote that) then we can have intelligent exchanges like I do with others. But given the garbage you post, I some how doubt that will be happening any time soon.

[hands11]

So much for your truce hands

That's funny.. I busted out.

Hey, all I did was post the link to the draft thread. Not sure how this spun out of control.

[TGW]

Whatever hands.

thank god for the ignore feature...I should have used it a long time ago.

[hands11]

Bill Simmons LOVES Ernie

http://grantland.com/features/nba-playo ... om-round-1

We should definitely reup him!

Off the see my WIZ

Simmons is on a roll. That's my boy.

[gambitx777]

This team could be champs by now if we had a better GM. just because we are finally in the play off's now, its not because of EG it's in spite of him!

[Illuminaire]

Somehow, I think someone missed the second paragraph in Simmon's little blurb on Grunfeld...

[montestewart]

Bill Simmons LOVES Ernie

http://grantland.com/features/nba-playo ... om-round-1

We should definitely reup him!

Off the see my WIZ

Simmons is on a roll. That's my boy.

Simmons doesn't appreciate being called "boy"

[montestewart]

Not really what ? You reply doesn't even make sense to what I wrote.