Is Wall Top 5 PG?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

What TSW says just above. And this is true by definition: wins and losses are 100% the product of the numbers each player puts up individually. You add them up for each team, and they never fail to produce exact results.

Duh.

Not true at all. Ever hear of intangibles? Hustle? Leadership? Look at players like Cousins. Has had historically great numbers but his attitude and lack of hustle at times has held his team back.

Things like hustle and leadership ALWAYS show up in the numbers somewhere, to the extent that they matter.

And, only a superficial glance at Cousins' numbers could lead someone to conclude they're historically great. His attitude and lack of hustle surely hurt his team -- and show up in the numbers. However, his easily measurable on-court play is problematic as well, specifically his poor shooting, horrific shot selection and rampant turnovers. He uses roughly a third of his team's possessions when he's in the game, and he does so at below-average efficiency.

Whenever Cousins gets better teammates I want to revisit this.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Not true at all. Ever hear of intangibles? Hustle? Leadership? Look at players like Cousins. Has had historically great numbers but his attitude and lack of hustle at times has held his team back.

Things like hustle and leadership ALWAYS show up in the numbers somewhere, to the extent that they matter.

And, only a superficial glance at Cousins' numbers could lead someone to conclude they're historically great. His attitude and lack of hustle surely hurt his team -- and show up in the numbers. However, his easily measurable on-court play is problematic as well, specifically his poor shooting, horrific shot selection and rampant turnovers. He uses roughly a third of his team's possessions when he's in the game, and he does so at below-average efficiency.

Whenever Cousins gets better teammates I want to revisit this.

If Cousins plays better in the future, that'll be good. I don't think anyone would deny Cousins possesses wonderful skills and athleticism -- great potential. The point is that his inefficiency on offense thus far in his career has hurt his team. He does other things that help, and on balance he's (kinda like Wall) a very good player. But, there's a mismatch between his reputation and his on-court performance THUS FAR IN HIS CAREER.

If he comes back next year, takes (and makes) better shots, and cuts down his turnovers, then his productivity will almost certainly rise, and his team will be better. But, that doesn't change the evaluation of his on-court performance so far. It will mean that he improved.

[CobraCommander]

Wall has never played with a legit, iso post scorer; a legit, prime, star scorer period; or a legit leader/vet -- outside of Pierce, at times. As a pass first, defensive point the way to decrease his turnovers; decrease his need to carry the offense alone; and way to increase his ability to focus on the defensive end is to give him one of the above (and a coach who game plans and practices accordingly). Wall works best when he isn't the team leader, but the team facilitator.

There are 5 positions on the basketball court, so a total of 25 players in the league who are top 5 at their position. There are 30 teams in the league. It is therefore somewhat unlikely for a top 5 player at his position to have an elite teammate.

A top 5 player at his position should not expect to play alongside another elite player for him to reach his potential. If that's what it takes, then that "top 5 player" really isn't a top 5 player.

Does Kyle Lowry have a legit, prime star scorer as a teammate? Does Damian Lillard? Did Chris Paul while Griffin was out?

Who is Kyle Lowry? Doesn't he quit right after the regular season?

[CobraCommander]

It's also gonna be awesome when Wall leaves the wiz and we pick up Teague or D.Williams or Rondo...the wiz are going to definitely win 30 games-

I think walls back hurts from carrying this sorry team with horrindous coaching

[TheSecretWeapon]

It's also gonna be awesome when Wall leaves the wiz and we pick up Teague or D.Williams or Rondo...the wiz are going to definitely win 30 games-

I think walls back hurts from carrying this sorry team with horrindous coaching

I'll just leave this here.

[nuposse04]

It's also gonna be awesome when Wall leaves the wiz and we pick up Teague or D.Williams or Rondo...the wiz are going to definitely win 30 games-

I think walls back hurts from carrying this sorry team with horrindous coaching

I'll just leave this here.

*Grabs pitchforks*


no, but I do buy a lot of this. I'm not sure if I buy the supporting cast being simply mediocre, but a lot of it is spot on. Wall was far too inefficient this season and gambled way too much on defense for my liking. Hate it when players go for risky steals instead of focusing on contesting shots.

I think Wall has a shot to crack top 5 should he fix his shot selection and TOs though... he is flawed for sure... but I think a bit of competency would go a long way in fixing his main issues. I don't think it is a lack of ability, he has plenty of that. Just have to hope Brooks can be a good leader... but to be frank I'm not so sure he'll curtail Wall's bad habits THAT much to vault him into that 180ish ppa territory.

[CobraCommander]

It's also gonna be awesome when Wall leaves the wiz and we pick up Teague or D.Williams or Rondo...the wiz are going to definitely win 30 games-

I think walls back hurts from carrying this sorry team with horrindous coaching

I'll just leave this here.

*Grabs pitchforks*


no, but I do buy a lot of this. I'm not sure if I buy the supporting cast being simply mediocre, but a lot of it is spot on. Wall was far too inefficient this season and gambled way too much on defense for my liking. Hate it when players go for risky steals instead of focusing on contesting shots.

I think Wall has a shot to crack top 5 should he fix his shot selection and TOs though... he is flawed for sure... but I think a bit of competency would go a long way in fixing his main issues. I don't think it is a lack of ability, he has plenty of that. Just have to hope Brooks can be a good leader... but to be frank I'm not so sure he'll curtail Wall's bad habits THAT much to vault him into that 180ish ppa territory.

Wait wait wait - I know y'all know me and I know everything said there is accurate. Numbers never ever lie (unless they do) but I am telling you this, the Wiz won't be better minus Wall with that exact same roster. People here talk like Wall is Kwame Brown.

[tontoz]

Wait wait wait - I know y'all know me and I know everything said there is accurate. Numbers never ever lie (unless they do) but I am telling you this, the Wiz won't be better minus Wall with that exact same roster. People here talk like Wall is Kwame Brown.

Nonsense. Just because we don't think he is top 5 doesn't mean we think he sucks.

[CobraCommander]

Wait wait wait - I know y'all know me and I know everything said there is accurate. Numbers never ever lie (unless they do) but I am telling you this, the Wiz won't be better minus Wall with that exact same roster. People here talk like Wall is Kwame Brown.

Nonsense. Just because we don't think he is top 5 doesn't mean we think he sucks.

I get it... Ok so you are not one of the people saying cut him/trade him/bench him etc...

[payitforward]

Wait wait wait - I know y'all know me and I know everything said there is accurate. Numbers never ever lie (unless they do) but I am telling you this, the Wiz won't be better minus Wall with that exact same roster. People here talk like Wall is Kwame Brown.

Nonsense. Just because we don't think he is top 5 doesn't mean we think he sucks.

I get it... Ok so you are not one of the people saying cut him/trade him/bench him etc...

Anyone can be traded, commander. Anyone. It just depends on the deal. This a business, man.

[CobraCommander]

Nonsense. Just because we don't think he is top 5 doesn't mean we think he sucks.

I get it... Ok so you are not one of the people saying cut him/trade him/bench him etc...

Anyone can be traded, commander. Anyone. It just depends on the deal. This a business, man.

Great point. It's just interesting when teams "sell/promote the players" and not winning. Like how the lakers sold coming to see Kobe play this year. The lakers didn't even pretend to sell a winning or even a rebuilding team. The Wizards have been selling players or opposing teams for my entire life apart from a few years (Webber/Howard and Areanas/ToughJuice/Jamison teams). When the teams sell players and not winning it leads to fans getting attached/invested in players and not winning. You have to admit the Wiz came into this year unofficially telling us that this was a lost year from a winning perspective and that we were building to go after KD during the off season...and this year we were supposed to just love watching Wall and Beal improve personally but the team couldn't win.

[TheSecretWeapon]

You have to admit the Wiz came into this year unofficially telling us that this was a lost year from a winning perspective and that we were building to go after KD during the off season...and this year we were supposed to just love watching Wall and Beal improve personally but the team couldn't win.

I don't with agree with this at all. They were all about making the playoffs again, and every bit of evidence suggests they thought they'd made roster moves that would keep them in the postseason AND keep space clear to sign Durant. Based on preseason predictions, it's safe to say that an overwhelming majority agreed -- my prediction was on the low side (42 wins), and I thought that would be enough to reach the playoffs.

Their whole objective was to construct a narrative of a team on the rise because of its young core, and then leverage that narrative into Durant (or another elite player). Their trade for Morris indicated a level of desperation because the narrative they wanted was disintegrating.

[nate33]

You have to admit the Wiz came into this year unofficially telling us that this was a lost year from a winning perspective and that we were building to go after KD during the off season...and this year we were supposed to just love watching Wall and Beal improve personally but the team couldn't win.

I don't with agree with this at all. They were all about making the playoffs again, and every bit of evidence suggests they thought they'd made roster moves that would keep them in the postseason AND keep space clear to sign Durant. Based on preseason predictions, it's safe to say that an overwhelming majority agreed -- my prediction was on the low side (42 wins), and I thought that would be enough to reach the playoffs.

Their whole objective was to construct a narrative of a team on the rise because of its young core, and then leverage that narrative into Durant (or another elite player). Their trade for Morris indicated a level of desperation because the narrative they wanted was disintegrating.

Agreed.

One can say that the Wizards made a few sacrifices to keep KD2DC on the table, but they definitely still thought they'd be a playoff team. Basically, instead of using cap money on long term contracts like Paul Pierce, Rodney Stuckey or Ed Davis, they went after guys on expiring deals like Jared Dudley, Gary Neal and Drew Gooden. The Dudley deal was actually an improvement over what Paul Pierce turned out to be.

[payitforward]

Well of course, KD coming here would have been great, and it would still be great. But you have to ask what made them think they needed to throw all their eggs in that basket.

I'd say the answer is that they'd already failed. IOW, unless KD came here, there was no path to a really good team, a contending team: they'd made too many mistakes and stupid moves. Or, in their terms, they'd been so very "unlucky."

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Well of course, KD coming here would have been great, and it would still be great. But you have to ask what made them think they needed to throw all their eggs in that basket.

I'd say the answer is that they'd already failed. IOW, unless KD came here, there was no path to a really good team, a contending team: they'd made too many mistakes and stupid moves. Or, in their terms, they'd been so very "unlucky."

Instead of KD they need to go for Shabazz Muhammed from the Timberwolves.

I would prefer should Muhammed at shooting guard.

[CobraCommander]

I don't know if Wall is top 5 but Westbrook is so much better than Wall, Lowry, Lillard and anyone other than Curry. Westbrook and Durant would be foolish to separate not this point. Westbrook and Durant are not Kobe and Shaq but they are by far the best two players on a single team since that Lakers squad. I hope Wall is watching this series while rehabbing and thinking- I have as much physical talent as Westbrook but I have to commit to getting much better and playing harder night after night.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, I hope that Wall gets his knees as close to perfect as he can before he steps back on the court. F*ck next season. Let him sit out until February.

[nate33]

Yeah, I hope that Wall gets his knees as close to perfect as he can before he steps back on the court. F*ck next season. Let him sit out until February.

Wall had really minor surgery. I don't think there's any concern whatsoever that he'll miss time next year. He certainly isn't at a point where he's looking to sit out half the season in a tanking gambit. He's also in the prime of his career. (He might even be just past his peak.) I don't think he wants to miss out on these years.

[dckingsfan]

Yeah, I hope that Wall gets his knees as close to perfect as he can before he steps back on the court. F*ck next season. Let him sit out until February.

Wall had really minor surgery. I don't think there's any concern whatsoever that he'll miss time next year. He certainly isn't at a point where he's looking to sit out half the season in a tanking gambit. He's also in the prime of his career. He might even be just past his peak. I don't think he wants to miss out on these years.

Yep, but even "minor" surgeries take time. Don't rush. And yes, I think the next 3 years are his prime.

Pretty sad for John all things considered.

[stevemcqueen1]

Well, he's 25. I think he's still a season or two away from reaching his peak.