Otto Porter Part 2

[nate33]

Matching the offer on Otto is better than letting him walk, I agree. It might make Wizards fans vomit, but it makes more sense than the alternative. But rather than letting it get to that point, I would rather trade him midseason and see what we can get back. If Porter could return two quality young players in Noel + Covington, that would be a major coup imo

Noel is a free agent too. He'll cost too much to pay to be our 3rd string center or an out-of-position PF. So basically, you're trading Porter for a 1-year rental of Covington. I'd rather just take my chances on resigning Porter.

I thought it was implied , but obviously you do this move if you're more comfortable overpaying Noel than overpaying Porter.. which I am personally.

Then you move one of the Cs for wing depth, possibly in a package with Markieff if need be.

Noel provides consistent rim protection and athleticism, which I think this team needs desperately more than Otto's hot/cold offensive output. Covington at the 4 is a good fit next to Oubre, and he's a fairly athletic 3&D player himself.

See, I'd much rather pay Porter than Noel. Porter can play two positions and play them well. Noel is a man without a position. You need unique talent around him (a center with PF skills) to make it work. I hate paying guys like that very much money. He's also injury prone and will likely stay injury prone given his frame.

I agree that Covington is solid. But he's only cheap for one more year, after which, he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

[Dat2U]

Noel is a free agent too. He'll cost too much to pay to be our 3rd string center or an out-of-position PF. So basically, you're trading Porter for a 1-year rental of Covington. I'd rather just take my chances on resigning Porter.

I thought it was implied , but obviously you do this move if you're more comfortable overpaying Noel than overpaying Porter.. which I am personally.

Then you move one of the Cs for wing depth, possibly in a package with Markieff if need be.

Noel provides consistent rim protection and athleticism, which I think this team needs desperately more than Otto's hot/cold offensive output. Covington at the 4 is a good fit next to Oubre, and he's a fairly athletic 3&D player himself.

See, I'd much rather pay Porter than Noel. Porter can play two positions and play them well. Noel is a man without a position. You need unique talent around him (a center with PF skills) to make it work. I hate paying guys like that very much money. He's also injury prone and will likely stay injury prone given his frame.

I agree that Covington is solid. But he's only cheap for one more year, after which, he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

I'm not for trading Porter for Noel but Noel is strictly a C. In no way, shape or form is he a PF. If anything his stats & impact have been significantly depressed playing out of position at PF.

If there was a way to acquire Noel cheaply, I would be all for it. I think right now he's really undervalued but certainly there's an injury risk there.

I'd consider Jason Smith & a heavily protected pick for Noel. Then work to trade Gortat for perimeter help.

[Illmatic12]

Noel is a free agent too. He'll cost too much to pay to be our 3rd string center or an out-of-position PF. So basically, you're trading Porter for a 1-year rental of Covington. I'd rather just take my chances on resigning Porter.

I thought it was implied , but obviously you do this move if you're more comfortable overpaying Noel than overpaying Porter.. which I am personally.

Then you move one of the Cs for wing depth, possibly in a package with Markieff if need be.

Noel provides consistent rim protection and athleticism, which I think this team needs desperately more than Otto's hot/cold offensive output. Covington at the 4 is a good fit next to Oubre, and he's a fairly athletic 3&D player himself.

See, I'd much rather pay Porter than Noel. Porter can play two positions and play them well. Noel is a man without a position. You need unique talent around him (a center with PF skills) to make it work. I hate paying guys like that very much money. He's also injury prone and will likely stay injury prone given his frame.

I agree that Covington is solid. But he's only cheap for one more year, after which, he becomes an unrestricted free agent.

Sometimes it's better to overpay for a limited guy who does 1-2 things very well. Noel is a center. Maybe he was too light in his first few years, but on the recent broadcast in their last game they mentioned he's up to 230+ lbs and can still get bigger with time. I don't see why he wouldn't play the center position for us.

Porter is a good player, but he doesn't provide much surplus value at the kind of price range we're talking about. He has a very hard ceiling on his game because he's never going to be an elite defender (athleticism limits him) and he's never going to be an offensive creator (he only excels in a low usage role and doesn't possess ballhandling/shotcreation ability to carry a greater load)

Playing two positions is not that special anymore, many players nowadays have the skill to swing between the 3-4 positions,and there are even more coming out of the draft every year. Imo it's a lot harder to find a 7'-footer who excels at rim protection and switching onto the perimeter, as well as being an athletic roll man in the PnR who creates gravity for your guards.

I'll be watching Noel closely this season to see if he's improved on his deficiencies, particularly as far as rebounding and physicality. But from what I've seen, over the next 4 years I'm much more comfortable betting on an skinny, athletic defensive 7'-footer than a skinny, 6'9 low usage wing who's an okay athlete.

[tontoz]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

[Dat2U]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Which goes to my point. He's not a 4 and playing there only hurts the team and stagnates his development.

He's a true C. You play him at C, you minimize his offensive weaknesses and play to his defensive strengths. Still with that in mind I wouldn't trade him for Porter.

[stevemcqueen1]

Hell no I wouldn't trade Porter for Noel. That's crazy talk. A huge loss in value. If you're moving Porter, you have to be trading up.

[stevemcqueen1]

I agree with nate about Noel not having a position. He lacks the bulk and strength of a center and the skill of a forward. He's the bad kind of tweener. Best case scenario, maybe he can be a Marcus Camby type somewhere down the line. But you're sacrificing a ton of offense and line up flexibility by going from Otto to him. Otto doesn't take anything off the table. And Otto has the potential to be a damn good PF in time.

[Illmatic12]

Hell no I wouldn't trade Porter for Noel. That's crazy talk. A huge loss in value. If you're moving Porter, you have to be trading up.

I wouldn't either. But I'd trade Porter for Noel + ___, which is what's being discussed here

[Illmatic12]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

[tontoz]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

His first year he didn't play at all. His 2nd season his overall RPM was -1.50 (see 2nd link) on the worst team in the league. His ORPM was last in the league by far even at C.

He is a huge offensive liability no matter where he plays. While he is a good team defender he struggles on man D against centers, at least according to Philly fans.

[nate33]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

He can't man the 5 full time without breaking down.

[Illmatic12]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

His first year he didn't play at all. His 2nd season his overall RPM was -1.50 (see 2nd link) on the worst team in the league. His ORPM was last in the league by far even at C.

He is a huge offensive liability no matter where he plays. While he is a good team defender he struggles on man D against centers, at least according to Philly fans.

So he didn't have a rookie year? Lol.. his rookie year was the first year he played.

And the Sixers were the least talented team in the NBA, I'm not concerned that he posted poor offensive numbers with that trash squad. I'm more interested in the fact that he was top 10 in DRPM, Def. Rating, Def Plus/Minus, Blk %, stl% and carried that Sixers team to being 12th in defense efficiency.

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

He can't man the 5 full time without breaking down.

He can if he continues to add weight and stays above 230lb. Don't see why he won't.. that's kinda how growing up works. Noel is 22yo, the question is what kind of value he'll be able to provide from ages 23-27+

[tontoz]

And the Sixers were the least talented team in the NBA,

Do you not see the problem here? If he was any good don't you think he should be a net positive on a team so devoid of talent?

He has been a net negative at the 4 and the 5 on a terrible team.

Looking at all players during the year he played center only one guy in the entire NBA had a worse ORPM than Noel. That was Kendrick Perkins.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/12/sort/ORPM

He can if he continues to add weight and stays above 230lb. Don't see why he won't

It is a lot easier to gain weight sitting on the bench in a suit.

[nate33]

Noel is not a 4, that's been the problem. He played the 5 his rookie year and was outstanding defensively, they moved him to 4 the next year after drafting Okafor

He can't man the 5 full time without breaking down.

He can if he continues to add weight and stays above 230lb. Don't see why he won't.. that's kinda how growing up works. Noel is 22yo, the question is what kind of value he'll be able to provide from ages 23-27+

I'm sorry Illmatic12. I agree with you most of the time, but you're wrong on this one. Noel is not a full time starter. If you put him at center, you will suffer his inability to defend burly post players, there will be injuries, and you'll have to deal with his weak offense. If you put him at PF, his weak offense is a total liability. He's a 3rd big type of player and you don't want to spend $12-20M a year for a 3rd big.

[payitforward]

...I'd consider Jason Smith & a heavily protected pick for Noel...

Absolutely. But... would they? And, if so -- why?

[payitforward]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel played @4300 minutes his first 2 years. He's played 10 minutes this year. Obviously, the injury is an issue. But, that aside, overall (not rated by a metric for which we don't have the formula), he was quite good his first two years. He's a strong rebounder, strong shot blocker, gets assists, steals balance turnovers, doesn't foul too much.

What he is terrible at is scoring -- as the ORPM indicates. No possible disagreement about that!

But, as Dat points out, he is likely very under-valued right now, and all the more in that Philly has Embiid and Okafor. If the injury isn't to worry about (which I don't assume btw), I'd be very interested in trading for him. But... what do we have and are willing to trade that Philly would want? That I don't know.

[Dark Faze]

I would love a Wall/Beal/Oubre/Porter/Nerlens lineup.

I think a first is too much to offer for him right now based on injuries, and he's not good enough (right now) to improve the team with a straight swap of any of our core guys.

I would give them either of Gortat or Mahinmi for Nerlens and filler, but they don't need the center depth.

[tontoz]

Noel doesn't provide consistent anything. He is in a suit half the time. When he is on the court he is a net negative. He is too light to guard centers and is an abomination on offense at the 4.

Last year Noel ranked second to last in ORPM among 4s.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

The previous year he was last alone, by far.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/ORPM/position/6

At least he improved.

Noel played @4300 minutes his first 2 years. He's played 10 minutes this year. Obviously, the injury is an issue. But, that aside, overall (not rated by a metric for which we don't have the formula), he was quite good his first two years. He's a strong rebounder, strong shot blocker, gets assists, steals balance turnovers, doesn't foul too much.

What he is terrible at is scoring -- as the ORPM indicates. No possible disagreement about that!

But, as Dat points out, he is likely very under-valued right now, and all the more in that Philly has Embiid and Okafor. If the injury isn't to worry about (which I don't assume btw), I'd be very interested in trading for him. But... what do we have and are willing to trade that Philly would want? That I don't know.

Do you value Noel more than Porter? Illmatic12 does which is my major point of contention. Porter imo is easily more valuable than Noel. He is a positive on both ends of the floor.

I don't see any way we could have both on the roster next year since they will be RFAs next summer.

[nate33]

...I'd consider Jason Smith & a heavily protected pick for Noel...

Absolutely. But... would they? And, if so -- why?

Only if Noel was locked into a long term contract at reasonable money. But with him about to hit free agency in a market when the cap balloons to $108M, I want no part of him. He could easily be paid more than Beal.

[Lauri_Legend]

He has literally done nothing to deserve that kind of money. End of story.