Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

[DCZards]

To me, the Wizards' desire to trade Brown is an indication of a return to the directionless, short-term, reactive nature of the franchise under Ernie. As such, I find it depressing.

Troy is 21 years old -- a fair number of guys who will be drafted in 2022 -- not this June but next June! -- will be older than Troy Brown.

Troy also had a promising rookie year & a really good 2d year (when his overall productivity was comfortably in the top 35% of guys at his position).

I don't disagree. I'd rather keep Troy. I'm just saying that if the decision has been made to move him, a guy like Bagley seems like a good risk/reward.

The logic for moving Troy is that he is not compatible with Westbrook. I think that's a fair assessment. But one has to wonder at the reasoning behind trying to mold a team around a 32-year-old with 36000 minutes under his belt who isn't really that good anymore.

The situation with Troy Brown is more of a coaching and team management problem, imo. To blame it solely on the presence of Westbrook let's Brooks and the FO off the hook. I don't disagree that Troy is not very compatible with Russ, but a good coach would figure out a way to get Brown quality PT...like playing the bulk of his minutes alongside Beal.

The presence of Neto and Ish is just as harmful to Troy's development as having Westbrook on the team.

It would be a mistake to trade Brown but I could see the justification for doing it under the current circumstances.

[Ruzious]

it's not just that he isn't good; it's how much $$ he is guaranteed this year & next.

My thinking is that we would be gambling that Bagley figures things out and starts to live up to his draft pedigree. Sometimes, big men just take a while for things to click.

But then I went back through the draft and looked for big men who were drafted high and disappointed in their first 3 years and then put it together afterwards. The only one I could find is Julius Randle. Just about everyone else who disappointed early remained disappointing: Biyombo, Kanter, Monroe, D.Williams, Vesely, T.Robinson, A.Bennett, Jabari, Okafor, WCS, Marquese Chris, the list is long.

So, nevermind. I officially rescind my approval of the trade. Bagley is a bust and is almost certain to remain a bust.

Fwiw, Chriss took a big step up last season, but he got a season-ending injury after 2 games this season. He could go either way next season. Someone to keep an eye on as a possible bargain.

[nate33]

it's not just that he isn't good; it's how much $$ he is guaranteed this year & next.

My thinking is that we would be gambling that Bagley figures things out and starts to live up to his draft pedigree. Sometimes, big men just take a while for things to click.

But then I went back through the draft and looked for big men who were drafted high and disappointed in their first 3 years and then put it together afterwards. The only one I could find is Julius Randle. Just about everyone else who disappointed early remained disappointing: Biyombo, Kanter, Monroe, D.Williams, Vesely, T.Robinson, A.Bennett, Jabari, Okafor, WCS, Marquese Chris, the list is long.

So, nevermind. I officially rescind my approval of the trade. Bagley is a bust and is almost certain to remain a bust.

Fwiw, Chriss took a big step up last season, but he got a season-ending injury after 2 games this season. He could go either way next season. Someone to keep an eye on as a possible bargain.

Yeah, some of those guys became useful players, but not the stars they were presumed to be when drafted. If you can get one of them on their second contract for cheap, sure, it might be a good idea. Chris is a good guy to watch. I thought Vonleh might be a good guy to grab, but he is out of the league now. Another guy to watch, though not originally a lotto pick, is Harry Giles.

[pcbothwel]

You can't say browns worth an expiring and a second and say Bertans is worth the same.
I understand Bertans contract is sizable bit for **** sakes the dude can shoot lights out and that's a premium skill. He's worth more than that for sure. And I doubt brown has that value honestly.

He is 21 years old and averaging 15 and 8 (21 and 10 per 36). I know he has warts. He's a lousy defender and poor passer. But he has improved his on/off differential considerably from last year, he has developed a 3-point shot, and he is an improved shooter from every distance except long 2's. I'd take a shot on him if all it costs is Troy Brown - a guy we surely won't be resigning anyhow.

Warts? The guy makes 11M+ next year and is a complete negative on the court. If we traded Brown + Ish for Bagley, I would want a pick as compensation.
IF Brown is moved, it has to be for an expiring and a 2nd or two. Anything else is a joke.
- Trade Brown for expiring plus a 2nd
- Trade Bertans for an expiring plus top 35 pick

If we plan on getting a true elite exec like Masai, I want him to have picks and flexibility (Full MLE).
I like Bertans, but feel he is a luxury that can net us a solid pick and also opens up the Full MLE for us to use.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

You're getting to hung up on the value here instead of the overall intent. That said:

1) No team picking 22-30 can trade their 1st other than Philly, and I suspect that will be headed to Toronto for Lowry.
2) The Knicks are buyers and need someone to spread the floor. Getting pick 32 from them and a future 2nd without taking on salary is a solid deal for Bertans


Brown is worth a pick in the 38-45 range, while Bertans is worth a pick in the 25-30 range... or two picks in the mid 30's.

[NatP4]

If you traded Brown at the end of his 2nd season what is he worth?

[Dark Faze]

If you traded Brown at the end of his 2nd season what is he worth?

late 1st

Hachimura to start the year would be late lotto, and is probably in the late 20's now

[gambitx777]

If you're talking about the the knicks they have a bunch of extra picks and you can probably squeeze a first out of them for Bertans, maybe even a first and a second since they won't be sending anything of value back player wise.

Also I sure mutile seconds is a different story I'd let bertans go for 2 or 3 seconds.

I posted an idea the other day that sent Bertans and lopez
For
Nittilkina and Brazdeikis and the two pistons seconds they own and the 2023 mavs first.

You can't say browns worth an expiring and a second and say Bertans is worth the same.
I understand Bertans contract is sizable bit for **** sakes the dude can shoot lights out and that's a premium skill. He's worth more than that for sure. And I doubt brown has that value honestly.

Warts? The guy makes 11M+ next year and is a complete negative on the court. If we traded Brown + Ish for Bagley, I would want a pick as compensation.
IF Brown is moved, it has to be for an expiring and a 2nd or two. Anything else is a joke.
- Trade Brown for expiring plus a 2nd
- Trade Bertans for an expiring plus top 35 pick

If we plan on getting a true elite exec like Masai, I want him to have picks and flexibility (Full MLE).
I like Bertans, but feel he is a luxury that can net us a solid pick and also opens up the Full MLE for us to use.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

You're getting to hung up on the value here instead of the overall intent. That said:

1) No team picking 22-30 can trade their 1st other than Philly, and I suspect that will be headed to Toronto for Lowry.
2) The Knicks are buyers and need someone to spread the floor. Getting pick 32 from them and a future 2nd without taking on salary is a solid deal for Bertans


Brown is worth a pick in the 38-45 range, while Bertans is worth a pick in the 25-30 range... or two picks in the mid 30's.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[gambitx777]

If you traded Brown at the end of his 2nd season what is he worth?

late 1st

Hachimura to start the year would be late lotto, and is probably in the late 20's now

Come on man he us playing pretty well. It's not like he's a scrub .

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

[doclinkin]

To me, the Wizards' desire to trade Brown is an indication of a return to the directionless, short-term, reactive nature of the franchise under Ernie. As such, I find it depressing.

Troy is 21 years old -- a fair number of guys who will be drafted in 2022 -- not this June but next June! -- will be older than Troy Brown.

Troy also had a promising rookie year & a really good 2d year (when his overall productivity was comfortably in the top 35% of guys at his position).

I think some if it is the Ted philosophy that they trade anyone who is unhappy being here. I would suspect while he is a good soldier, Troy was frustrated and maybe raised the question. So the team will do their best to ship him. He wants to play.

[pcbothwel]

If you traded Brown at the end of his 2nd season what is he worth?

late 1st

Hachimura to start the year would be late lotto, and is probably in the late 20's now

Come on man he us playing pretty well. It's not like he's a scrub .

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using RealGM mobile app

Agreed. Looking at similar players picked in the 7-15 range that have been traded over the last half decade (Saric, Prince, Kennard, etc.)... Id say his value is in the 18-24 range. Either way I think it will be a bit more clear over the last half of the season.

[payitforward]

If you traded Brown at the end of his 2nd season what is he worth?

late 1st

Hachimura to start the year would be late lotto, and is probably in the late 20's now

These are impossible questions to answer, of course -- but, all the same, I think you are wrong.

At the end of last season, Troy Brown was still 20 years old; he was playing at a high NBA level. He was worth a mid-lottery pick.

Hachimura is a special case, because he is Japanese & brings an enormous marketing/$$ value that no other player provides to his team. That's much of the reason he was picked as high as he was; his slow start to his career doesn't have much effect on that value.

Thus, despite the fact that Rui hasn't been anywhere near the player in his second year that Troy was, not to mention that Troy was 20 years old during his entire 2d season, Rui has greater trade value.

[payitforward]

To me, the Wizards' desire to trade Brown is an indication of a return to the directionless, short-term, reactive nature of the franchise under Ernie. As such, I find it depressing.

Troy is 21 years old -- a fair number of guys who will be drafted in 2022 -- not this June but next June! -- will be older than Troy Brown.

Troy also had a promising rookie year & a really good 2d year (when his overall productivity was comfortably in the top 35% of guys at his position).

I think some if it is the Ted philosophy that they trade anyone who is unhappy being here. I would suspect while he is a good soldier, Troy was frustrated and maybe raised the question. So the team will do their best to ship him. He wants to play.

I hadn't thought of that, but two things: is there any evidence of this? &, why would you want a player who didn't want to play? Who wasn't frustrated when he didn't see the floor?

In any case, if Ted is involved in this kind of decision (except if there's a significant financial issue), then that's enough to confirm my thesis: back to "directionless..." etc.

[TGW]

A player that I think would possibly come cheap relative to production is Lauri Markannen. I know he's not a strong defender, and his assist to TO ratio is on the negative side, but he's a 50/40 guy and he's only 23. I know he's up for an extension so Bertans would have to go out, and possibly Bryant as well.

[doclinkin]

To me, the Wizards' desire to trade Brown is an indication of a return to the directionless, short-term, reactive nature of the franchise under Ernie. As such, I find it depressing.

Troy is 21 years old -- a fair number of guys who will be drafted in 2022 -- not this June but next June! -- will be older than Troy Brown.

Troy also had a promising rookie year & a really good 2d year (when his overall productivity was comfortably in the top 35% of guys at his position).

I think some if it is the Ted philosophy that they trade anyone who is unhappy being here. I would suspect while he is a good soldier, Troy was frustrated and maybe raised the question. So the team will do their best to ship him. He wants to play.

I hadn't thought of that, but two things: is there any evidence of this? &, why would you want a player who didn't want to play? Who wasn't frustrated when he didn't see the floor?

In any case, if Ted is involved in this kind of decision (except if there's a significant financial issue), then that's enough to confirm my thesis: back to "directionless..." etc.

Troy went from being lauded in a leadership role on last year's team, played pretty well in the bubble, worked his tail off in the extended offseason to try to fit next to Wall and Beal, then was replaced not just by Westbrook, but Jerome Robinson, Neto, Deni, etc.

In the past Ted and Tommy have both made it clear they try to accommodate players who are unhappy. It is part of Ted's Double Bottom Line mindset. You want to do well by being good guys. They only want guys who want to be on the team, if they don't want to be here, help them out.

When we hear the team is 'extremely motivated' in trying to trade TBJr, well, that is the sort of thing that comes out when a player has been vocal behind the scenes, or made clear they are frustrated. Otherwise: why?

[Ruzious]

A player that I think would possibly come cheap relative to production is Lauri Markannen. I know he's not a strong defender, and his assist to TO ratio is on the negative side, but he's a 50/40 guy and he's only 23. I know he's up for an extension so Bertans would have to go out, and possibly Bryant as well.

He's definitely a big-time talent, but - like with Porzingis - does his talent lead to winning? He and Wendell Carter should have made a very good combo - with Carter being the better defender and Lauri being the skilled offensive 7 footer - especially with LaVine coming into his own. I think ultimately you lose with bad defensive bigs, but will he always be bad defensively? I don't know.

[DCZards]

Troy went from being lauded in a leadership role on last year's team, played pretty well in the bubble, worked his tail off in the extended offseason to try to fit next to Wall and Beal, then was replaced not just by Westbrook, but Jerome Robinson, Neto, Deni, etc.

Prior to and during the bubble, Brooks talked constantly about how it was a leadership opportunity for Troy and how the team was going to lean on him big time while in the bubble. It just seems so strange that Brown would go from that kind of status to basically a persona non grata, especially when he played--and led--fairly well in the bubble.

Troy doesn't strike me as someone who would complain about playing time to the point where he HAD to be traded...but I really wouldn't blame him if he did want out in a big way.

[Ruzious]

Troy went from being lauded in a leadership role on last year's team, played pretty well in the bubble, worked his tail off in the extended offseason to try to fit next to Wall and Beal, then was replaced not just by Westbrook, but Jerome Robinson, Neto, Deni, etc.

Prior to and during the bubble, Brooks talked constantly about how it was a leadership opportunity for Troy and how the team was going to lean on him big time while in the bubble. It just seems so strange that Brown would go from that kind of status to basically a persona non grata, especially when he played--and led--fairly well in the bubble.

Troy doesn't strike me as someone who would complain about playing time to the point where he HAD to be traded...but I really wouldn't blame him if he did want out in a big way.

Right, it's great to be a good teammate who doesn't complain, but this is having a huge potential impact on his career ant the money he will make in the future. If I was in his shoes, I'd be unhappy.

[likwitdesi]

Whether Troy Brown is on this team or not does not move the needle one way or another for this team. While playing Jerome Robinson over him was weird, Garrison Mathews with his shooting, defense and tough mentality is a better role player than him and will be in the NBA longer.

I don't know how any of you can blame Brooks for not playing a guy shooting less than 37% from the field this season. This team is trying to win and that sort of liability does not help. It's no surprise that this team has started winning since Bryant went down & Brown Bonga, Ish and Robinson hit the bench

[payitforward]

... I thought Vonleh might be a good guy to grab, but he is out of the league now.....

Yeah I was thinking about that a week or so ago when I read that he'd been waived -- you & I were nodding at each other about what a productive bargain he would be!

I guess not even you & I are always right, huh....

#9 pick if I remember rightly.

[payitforward]

Troy went from being lauded in a leadership role on last year's team, played pretty well in the bubble, worked his tail off in the extended offseason to try to fit next to Wall and Beal, then was replaced not just by Westbrook, but Jerome Robinson, Neto, Deni, etc.

Prior to and during the bubble, Brooks talked constantly about how it was a leadership opportunity for Troy and how the team was going to lean on him big time while in the bubble. It just seems so strange that Brown would go from that kind of status to basically a persona non grata, especially when he played--and led--fairly well in the bubble.

Troy doesn't strike me as someone who would complain about playing time to the point where he HAD to be traded...but I really wouldn't blame him if he did want out in a big way.

That's more or less the way it seems to me as well. I just don't understand why he hasn't gotten consistent minutes to work through what seems, essentially, a slump.

Now... goes without saying there's a lot we don't know, but if he was in any way a malcontent you'd expect there'd have been some noise to pick up on. In fact, I remember Brooks describing Troy as "...a good player. He's having a bad start to the season, but he's a good player."

Again... this is a 21 year old kid. The fact that he played so well last year suffices for us to know that he's got it in him. If they get little or nothing for him it's an extremely bad sign about the state of the FO.