Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

[nate33]

Pecherov is done. We won't see him in the NBA again unless has a successful stint in Europe and comes back with a more well-rounded game. He's a spot-up shooter who really doesn't shoot all that well. He's shooting 23% from 3-point range this year. He's a career 28% 3-point shooter.

[no D in Hibachi]

Last night I watched part of the game with the Clippers broadcast team. When Foye came in the game the announcers just lit into the Wiz because they traded the fifth pick for Foye and Miller. They carried on how it sure would be nice if the Wiz still had that fifth pick because Foye hasn't done anything for the Wiz this season. The Wizards got absolutely raped in this trade. The rest of the league laughs about it and frankly I don't see how any Wizard fan can think of this as an even or good trade. At the time I thought it was a bad trade and now it looks like a colossal failure. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply delusional.

[queridiculo]

Foye would have to get minutes first for us to make a determination whether the Wizards got 'raped' in that trade.

With Saunders Boykins/Brick man crush however that's probably not going to happen.

Last night:

Debrick 24 minutes
Boykins 14 minutes
Foye 5 minutes

As far as I am concerned Saunders is more to blame for this disaster than EG.

His rotations are absolutely awful, and his constant juggling hasn't allowed anybody to establish any sort of rhythm.

How on earth can you justify giving Stevenson 24 minutes? Saunders is absolutely clueless and almost seems as if he's throwing **** on the wall to see if it sticks.

[Hoopalotta]

Honestly, we would have just drafted Curry and we'd likely all be complaining bitterly now....

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=965004

I really just don't think we missed much of a difference maker despite the trade not working out.

Even with Jennings, who supposedly was very poor in work outs and interviews, he's a guy with question marks hanging over him despite the production (I mean, what's his field goal percentage going to be like long term?).

There were lots of good value players picked late, but it wasn't a great draft for impact guys.

The trade backs mentioned earlier with Minnesota sound good, but other than that I think the Wizards were mostly looking at an assortment of bad choices.

And don't even start with STATamire. He's an absolute bull's eye for what we don't need.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Flip isn't letting anyone establish any rhythm. Foye has bad games, he gets benched. Stevenson has bad games, he gets benched. Young has mediocre games, he gets benched. It's a freaking revolving door. I'm sick of his constant juggling of the rotation. It's only going to get worse when we get Miller back. I don't know what the hell Flip is doing because none of this is necessary. Just pick your guys and sink with that ship.

[DCZards]

Foye would have to get minutes first for us to make a determination whether the Wizards got 'raped' in that trade.

With Saunders Boykins/Brick man crush however that's probably not going to happen.

Last night:

Debrick 24 minutes
Boykins 14 minutes
Foye 5 minutes

As far as I am concerned Saunders is more to blame for this disaster than EG.

His rotations are absolutely awful, and his constant juggling hasn't allowed anybody to establish any sort of rhythm.

How on earth can you justify giving Stevenson 24 minutes? Saunders is absolutely clueless and almost seems as if he's throwing **** on the wall to see if it sticks.

Yup, can't make a judgement on the trade when Miller is injured and Foye ain't getting PT. Little Earl has been a nice addition--short term--but it's hurt/limited Foye's production and role and that's a huge problem, imo. Foye is better than both Boykins or DSteve, but he can't prove it sitting on the bench. I'm disappointed that Flip doesn't see that.

[closg00]

Anyone want to lay bets on Foye & Miller renatls being in a Wiz uni next year? Miller is making over 9 mil this year, how-much do you think we offer him given the two-headed beast that are the AJ/Gilbert contracts? Foye won't be signed, Young and DeShawn are on relatively cheap contracts.

[no D in Hibachi]

I highly doubt either will be here next year. Miller will sign cheap with the Celtics/Spurs/Cavs or some team of that caliber. Foye will get as far away from here on a one year contract to try and boost his value.

[MJG]

I highly doubt either will be here next year. Miller will sign cheap with the Celtics/Spurs/Cavs or some team of that caliber. Foye will get as far away from here on a one year contract to try and boost his value.

Ditto; I don't expect either back. Miller will probably get a three-year MLE offers from a couple of title contenders, so short of us breaking the bank, he has little reason to come back. As for Foye, I honestly don't think we'll even pick up his qualifying offer (it's around $4.5 million, double with the tax). Odds are he'll sign on with some team looking to use up a bit of leftover cap space for something like 2 years, $6 million.

[LyricalRico]

Miller will likely be able to be had for a deal averaging $6-7M, not much higher than the MLE. And Foye would probably get a deal like DeBrick, a little less than the MLE. I think Miller would be the priority, with Foye a longshot.

[Dat2U]

Honestly, we would have just drafted Curry and we'd likely all be complaining bitterly now....

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=965004

I really just don't think we missed much of a difference maker despite the trade not working out.

Even with Jennings, who supposedly was very poor in work outs and interviews, he's a guy with question marks hanging over him despite the production (I mean, what's his field goal percentage going to be like long term?).

There were lots of good value players picked late, but it wasn't a great draft for impact guys.

The trade backs mentioned earlier with Minnesota sound good, but other than that I think the Wizards were mostly looking at an assortment of bad choices.

And don't even start with STATamire. He's an absolute bull's eye for what we don't need.

Dont try to clean up EG's mess bro. It's there for everyone to see. There's no point trying to stick a bow tie on a steaming pile of ****.

I actually like Mike Miller but he can't even stay healthy and even more importantly he's a f'ing unrestricted FA! There's no sure bet he's resignable considering how crappy this year has been so far.

As for Randy Foye he's been a complete bust. He's got so little PG skill that he got replaced by a 5-5 guy we signed off the street! If that's not a damning indictment, I don't know what is. He's a RFA but is he even worth keeping this point as a ineffective backup undersized SG?

You can boo hoo the other trade options but that doesn't mean one should go out and make the best deal out of a bad bunch. The Wizards would have been better off drafting DeJuan Blair at #5! Much less at #32. We would have been better off trading the friggin pick for Vince Carter. At least we would have a difference maker in the lineup and he could have been had for much less (see Orlando's offer for him). Same for Richard Jefferson. Curry has struggled but he's shown more promise and PG skill than Foye has this year. Jennings had been a stud. You can't knock him when you see what Milwaukee has done this year with that roster and no Michael Redd. Johnny Flynn would have been nice. So would have Ty Lawson. Hell I'd even take DeMar DeRozan.

And just as an FYI. Ricky Rubio hasn't played a moment this year and might not for the next two. But we've gotten about as much production out of Miller and Foye this year than Minny has out of Rubio. Basically zilch. And after this season. Rubio will be a pretty nice asset for them going forward.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Honestly, we would have just drafted Curry and we'd likely all be complaining bitterly now....

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=965004

I really just don't think we missed much of a difference maker despite the trade not working out.

Even with Jennings, who supposedly was very poor in work outs and interviews, he's a guy with question marks hanging over him despite the production (I mean, what's his field goal percentage going to be like long term?).

There were lots of good value players picked late, but it wasn't a great draft for impact guys.

The trade backs mentioned earlier with Minnesota sound good, but other than that I think the Wizards were mostly looking at an assortment of bad choices.

And don't even start with STATamire. He's an absolute bull's eye for what we don't need.

Dont try to clean up EG's mess bro. It's there for everyone to see. There's no point trying to stick a bow tie on a steaming pile of ****.

I actually like Mike Miller but he can't even stay healthy and even more importantly he's a f'ing unrestricted FA! There's no sure bet he's resignable considering how crappy this year has been so far.

As for Randy Foye he's been a complete bust. He's got so little PG skill that he got replaced by a 5-5 guy we signed off the street! If that's not a damning indictment, I don't know what is. He's a RFA but is he even worth keeping this point as a ineffective backup undersized SG?

You can boo hoo the other trade options but that doesn't mean one should go out and make the best deal out of a bad bunch. The Wizards would have been better off drafting DeJuan Blair at #5! Much less at #32. We would have been better off trading the friggin pick for Vince Carter. At least we would have a difference maker in the lineup and he could have been had for much less (see Orlando's offer for him). Same for Richard Jefferson. Curry has struggled but he's shown more promise and PG skill than Foye has this year. Jennings had been a stud. You can't knock him when you see what Milwaukee has done this year with that roster and no Michael Redd. Johnny Flynn would have been nice. So would have Ty Lawson. Hell I'd even take DeMar DeRozan.

And just as an FYI. Ricky Rubio hasn't played a moment this year and might not for the next two. But we've gotten about as much production out of Miller and Foye this year than Minny has out of Rubio. Basically zilch. And after this season. Rubio will be a pretty nice asset for them going forward.

Damn, who could have predicted such a thing!

(Before the draft somebody said imagine Blair starting at PF next to Haywood. Best defensive rebounder with great shotblocker and rebounder--and that even as a rookie Blair would be a very good PF. Surprisingly effective at both ends was the prediction).

(Dat you and I both knew Curry was a better playmaker at PG than Foye the day the deal went down).

[no D in Hibachi]

(Dat you and I both knew Curry was a better playmaker at PG than Foye the day the deal went down).

Not saying much here CCJ. One could argue that BTH has better playmaking ability than Foye.

[Hoopalotta]

Dont try to clean up EG's mess bro. It's there for everyone to see. There's no point trying to stick a bow tie on a steaming pile of ****.

I actually like Mike Miller but he can't even stay healthy and even more importantly he's a f'ing unrestricted FA! There's no sure bet he's resignable considering how crappy this year has been so far.

As for Randy Foye he's been a complete bust. He's got so little PG skill that he got replaced by a 5-5 guy we signed off the street! If that's not a damning indictment, I don't know what is. He's a RFA but is he even worth keeping this point as a ineffective backup undersized SG?

You can boo hoo the other trade options but that doesn't mean one should go out and make the best deal out of a bad bunch. The Wizards would have been better off drafting DeJuan Blair at #5! Much less at #32. We would have been better off trading the friggin pick for Vince Carter. At least we would have a difference maker in the lineup and he could have been had for much less (see Orlando's offer for him). Same for Richard Jefferson. Curry has struggled but he's shown more promise and PG skill than Foye has this year. Jennings had been a stud. You can't knock him when you see what Milwaukee has done this year with that roster and no Michael Redd. Johnny Flynn would have been nice. So would have Ty Lawson. Hell I'd even take DeMar DeRozan.

And just as an FYI. Ricky Rubio hasn't played a moment this year and might not for the next two. But we've gotten about as much production out of Miller and Foye this year than Minny has out of Rubio. Basically zilch. And after this season. Rubio will be a pretty nice asset for them going forward.

Though it looks that way, I do not really apologize for Grundfeld or defend the trade with any great conviction.

The only thing that got me to comment here again is that I was listening to the Clippers feed that was referenced earlier where their announcers were going on and on, all like, "they traded the fifth pick! Can you believe?!?" as if some Throw-Down-Water-Walker who can 'Shanghai and hang-high' was sitting there to be had. As it is, the trade has worked out as maybe a zero on a scale of one to ten, all things considered. A generous rating would be a zero-point-five. The preseason-game rating would maybe be somewhere between a three and a five.

My main point was that a score of 'zero' in the high lottery in this draft was not as bad as it would have been most years and that there were a lot of other low scores waiting for us in 'behind-door-number-two' scenarios.

You can't exonerate Grundfeld on this one though, I agree, although I must confess that I thought the trade would work out all right at the time (my initial reaction when I heard the news pre-draft was that I wanted Curry, though I talked myself into liking the trade). Basically, Foye's just played terribly (or maybe “not played”, which is terrible), but it seemed plausible that he theoretically could have fit here for a while and he and Miller should have been obvious fits with the system. Yes, we know how that worked out, though I think Foye's career going forward will be better than the results here.

I said it before, was lambasted and likely will be again, but Abe went all in with this team a few years ago and all the decisions made since are back dated to that point (in fairness to him and no matter how things worked out, he was backed into a corner with high profile free agents, had every right to do as he pleased and deserved to be able to try and win while he still could). The talk this summer that we 'doubled down on a bad hand' has indeed played out. We became fixated on 'veteran help' and traded out of the draft all together when the options were middling in doing so at best.

Hindsight seems to show that the best thing to do would have been to trade back in the draft as that's where the value was. One could easily argue that it was apparent at the time too, though I am really very much a blind amateur with my takes on the draft. The amazing thing to me is that just about every point guard prospect available seems to have panned out one way or another; we could have just picked names from a hat if we wanted a point guard (I am not even ruling out the possibility of Holiday or Beaubois outperforming Jennings over the course of their careers as yet; OK, maybe that's going a bit far, but it's early). A trade back that dumped salaries and picked up Lawson or Maynor or what have you would have been a shot in the arm. No one is denying that.

But we ('we' being management) wanted veteran campaigners who had already stormed the shores of Tripoli, and the veterans that I have heard were available all basically stunk and the picks at the top of the draft were only so-so as far as value. That's sort of like writing an essay where we find evidence to support our initial hypothesis rather than to test it. So no, that doesn't make Ernie look better, but I'm half way just chronicling events at this point rather than acting as some kind of well paid defense lawyer with a silk tie.

I don't know about Vince being a plus, I can agree that we would have helped some now, but I wouldn't have liked that as far as direction (as noted, at least Foye was theoretically improving-able). I would have hated that one from the start actually. It would have a slight “Mitch Richmond, our new 32 year old shooting guard” kind of feeling (though not for a young big man). Though like you said, maybe it would have been cheap.

Jefferson has been awful so far (though that was a trade back, so it would have worked out very well, but not because of Jefferson).

I think acquiring Stoudamire would have been a complete calamity for so many reasons. Big distractions and he'd have pulled a Boozer 'Opt-In-after a year long media circus' when he realized that his production wasn't going to get a max-deal. Should he go the free agent route, I consider him a riskier signing than Boozer this summer, and that's saying something. Suffice to say, I don't think of him as a 'little things that help you win' kind of guy. Anyway, I would need to work out a whole long winded diatribe to chronicle my reservations about STAT coming here.

I was very excited by Jennings the first game I saw him play (which I think was his first game ever), but if he settles down to become a .35% 3 PT shooter, he's not the same kind of player. Is he going to be able to go into the lane and get fouled night in and night out? Of course it would have been nice to draft him, sure. But I would really like to stress again, from an 'impact guy' standpoint, that there is a high likelihood that at least one and quite possibly several of the point guards taken behind him will have better careers. Not that this improves the prospects of the Minnesota trade, but I'm just sayin' that Jennings might not be the savior he's made out to be at this time (and for trivia purposes, we'll just throw out that 'Chris Sheridan is a blow-harding harlot').

Flynn would have been good, but not great value. A lot better though, yes.

As I mentioned, Stephen Curry was the guy I thought we should pick (I was assuming Rubio would be gone) and would have been better than the trade. But the hate on him on the Warriors board is pretty severe, which is surprising considering how early it is. I gave a link to that thread above, but he's basically being called out as a physically outmatched hot dog focused on all the wrong stuff. Maybe some of that is situational/cultural with the Golden State franchise? Better? Yes, but not a 'Guns Of Navarone' kind of foundation piece.

DeRozen should put things together going forward, but a project shooting guard from USC would have been a twilight zone pick for the kind of identity that management and ownership had in mind. He's another guy who could conceivably surpass Jennings, as improbable as it sounds now (he's supposed to be very focused and obviously the tools are there).

As to Rubio, my understanding is something to the effect that if he stays overseas for three years, he can come over and, though I'm foggy on the details, either re-enter the draft or become a free agent. I heard some discussion on this months ago by Ford and Simmons. So I have been led to believe that the team that drafted him does not really have as much leverage as one would think and I find that to be a bit of a chocolate covered poopsicle. I mean, in the name of Ned, we could have come away with nothing! OK, OK, I know, you don't need to say it, I'm just guffawin'.

Anyway, don't take all this to mean that I'm defending the trade to the bitter end. It would be impossible to refute your main point that the trade went terribly and therefore Grundfeld screwed up. I sympathize with his situation, so I laid things out, but it comes down to 'ball don't lie'. For my overall perspective on the ball's take on the 'big-3-direction', we can reference my sig.

So I'll just close with two points that are the main meat of my meandering mind.....

1) As I said earlier, the only reason I got on this thing again was to mention that this was one year where you could blow the fifth pick and just be looking at a 'big mistake' rather than an 'eternal screeching harpy of a historic fiasco camped out in your tree-fort forever'. Blowing the fourth pick would have been the latter scenario.

2) What the Wizards do next with their personnel decisions will have a much, much greater bearing on future success than even the absolute best case woulda'-coulda'-shoulda' related to the 2009 draft.

Bottom line, that's all I'm really saying here.

We'll OK, I'm saying more, but that's the part that's at least semi-coherent.

[Ruzious]

Last night I watched part of the game with the Clippers broadcast team. When Foye came in the game the announcers just lit into the Wiz because they traded the fifth pick for Foye and Miller. They carried on how it sure would be nice if the Wiz still had that fifth pick because Foye hasn't done anything for the Wiz this season. The Wizards got absolutely raped in this trade. The rest of the league laughs about it and frankly I don't see how any Wizard fan can think of this as an even or good trade. At the time I thought it was a bad trade and now it looks like a colossal failure. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply delusional.

Before writing off Miller, let's at least wait to see how he does this season before we pine over Rubio. Like I said at the time of the trade, getting Foye was a mistake.

[barelyawake]

Hindsight seems to show that the best thing to do would have been to trade back in the draft as that's where the value was. One could easily argue that it was apparent at the time too...

It was all too obvious that we should have traded down. I'm pretty sure half this board was yelling for that. The next obvious move was to trade out of the draft and into the 2010 draft (and with the hype Rubio was getting, this move could have paid off big time -- as in an extra lottery pick in a great 2010 draft). Forget Rubio, imagine we could have had two shots at Wall and Favors.

I really wish we could have a forward thinking plan with an eye on a championship. Foye and Miller were patches -- and not good fits from the start. Instead of forcing things to fit a role they have never been good at (for instance, expecting Java to somehow learn to be a defensive force), can we please start getting pieces that fit the position for which they are meant to play? Stop with the gimmicks and patches and build a real team -- one based on sound, fundamental passing and defense.

[WizarDynasty]

From page 9
viewtopic.php?f=35&t=916746&start=120

Re: Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

Postby WizarDynasty on Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm
Well it's pretty much over now. Evan's was the pick that should have been made but Sacramento is going to grab him. Harden sucks. I will take Mike Miller over Harden any day of the week since everyone is in love with Harden's three point shot. Foye is a better defender than Arenas no matter how you spin it and we need someone next to arenas that can guard quick point guards and not fall off on the offense.
The only two bigmen in the draft were Hill and Mullen and no matter how you spin, other needs were still needed to be addressed.

This is what i stated days ago as our priorities.

Three major priorities for the team--we need one player with all attributes combined. You don't solve solution by acquiring two players and magically pretending that they are one player. Your starter is the most complete player and almost never needs to double team, and hopefully the other team needs to double him on offense. Ranked in priority
1. One big that has all of these attributes-High Motor, high field goal percentage, above average defensive rebounder, can block shots, can shoot from perimeter to open lane for Gil, is effective defending the pick and role. Explosive first step is a premium-, doesn't have an ego problem. All attributes need to be there.
2. Perimeter defense- A player that can guard big s/f's and has enough agility and standing reach to effectively contest a 6'8 players three point shot but has quick enough feet to guard on perimeter players such as point guards without being callled for a blocking foul, can knock down open three point shots, and can punish another team for using an undersized s/f by posting him up. Explosive First Step is a premium. All attributes need to be there otherwise he isn't worth a lottery pick.
3. A shooting guard who has the footspeed and strength to defend pg's, strong enough to defend s/f's, and has the ball handling ability to advance the ball against pressure, should be able to knock down an open three point shot. Explosive step is a must for a scoring guard.



We did upgrade our perimeter defense with extra length but I don't know about Mike's agility. i do know that i would rather see mike shooting three pointers than Caron jacking up two pointers all day hitting at the same percentage.
I think our third priority was met. Foye has the footspeed for pg and strength for sg's. He has pretty poor standing reach but he has an explosive first step and can knock down the jay.
If Blatche magically develops a high motor, our solution at powerforward is solved. But i did recognize that Jordan Hill didn't have lower leg strength needed to post on the blocks at will and Mullen's does have motivational issues.
So again, if we can figure out a way to trade Caron for Stoudemire, we are pretty set.
I still think EG screwed up by not getting Clark. That's going to haunt him for a very long time if he doesn't fulfill the teams first priority of getting a dominant offensive post bigman that is also an above average defensive rebounder with a high motor. That's been the organization number need for the last 6 years and EG still has done nothing to address it. As much as I complained about Stoudemire, I would rather have him over Mike Miller and Foye.
Last edited by WizarDynasty on Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
the wizards fans know what suppose to go here. What defense is all about in offseason.
http://stacktv.stack.com/video.aspx?vid ... 349557_356

WizarDynasty
Pro Prospect

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[DaRealHibachi]

^^^Dude, you do understand that you're basically asking for HOF players right...???

[WizarDynasty]

i wouldn't consider #1- brook lopez, #2Chris Kaman, #3marc gasol, #4nene hilario, #5al horford, #6al jefferson, #7jason thompson, #8andrew bynum, #9troy murphy, #10pau gasol. #11josh smith--I don't think any of these players are HOFers. --all shot 50 percent and have close to 40 blocks and have score close to 350 pts.

Players that score at a high field goal percentage and can also block shots. closest thing we have to that is Blatche and we aren't designing alot of plays for him to shoot on the block allowing him to expand his post game. If we aren't going to develop his post game, then who is our future post bigman? Surely not haywood and jamison and we haven't given mcgee any minutes?

there are #12 Dirks, #13 Tim Duncans,#14 Dwight Howards,#15 Amare, #16Chris Bosh

So these are all bigmen on separate teams that are more complete player--2 way than any bigman on our team.
Points score close to .350 so far this season shooting at over .50 percent and all have over 35 blocks.
If Jamison and Haywood were combined into one player on teh court that is doing both Haywood and Jamison's job at the same time. That works if the wizards are playing 6 on 5 or if the other team is forced to have mediocre second big so that things are even but that aint the case. Haywood +Jamison equals Tim Duncan==when it comes to production. Jamison +Haywood=equals the production of Kaman. That's why we suck folks.
Points scored at high field goal percentage with that same Bigman player also able to play defense and challenge shots.

[DaRealHibachi]

i wouldn't consider #1- brook lopez, #2Chris Kaman, #3marc gasol, #4nene hilario, #5al horford, #6al jefferson, #7jason thompson, #8andrew bynum, #9troy murphy, #10pau gasol. #11josh smith--I don't think any of these players are HOFers. --all shot 50 percent and have close to 40 blocks and have score close to 350 pts.

And which of those teams can we rip of to get any of those players...??? They don't exactly grow on trees you know...

We all know we need 2 way players at all positions, but guess what, not many teams have them, and ain't none of them teams giving up those kinda players for the garbage we have...

btw, didn't we have this discussion a good while ago...???