Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza

[tontoz]

Fair enough but did Philly or Indiana manage to turn it around through signing a 100 Millions free agent willing to come there ? no. .

They did sign Brand and David West.

In 2014 is when you try to sign a very good player to come here. You try either through FA or,

assuming you have the cap space with the Wizards might not even have. Wall will have a max cap hold so with Nene's salary that takes up $30+ million of cap space right there.

The time to add a big aquisition is BEFORE the cap holds of the 2010 draft class kick in.

[montestewart]

And Wall has more pieces to lead. Hope he is working on the J because they will need that from him.

So that's the plan for better and more efficient shooting/scoring from the perimeter players. Good to know they have one.

Hey Ernie, have I told you lately how much I love this trade?

[veji1]

Fair enough but did Philly or Indiana manage to turn it around through signing a 100 Millions free agent willing to come there ? no. .

They did sign Brand and David West.

In 2014 is when you try to sign a very good player to come here. You try either through FA or,

assuming you have the cap space with the Wizards might not even have. Wall will have a max cap hold so with Nene's salary that takes up $30+ million of cap space right there.

The time to add a big aquisition is BEFORE the cap holds of the 2010 draft class kick in.

This is where the question will have to be answered : Do you pay Wall a max deal or not... That is another point but if Wall is a may cap hold, than this team will have improved and will be an attracting destination. and if KS plays like late last season you might get a very good mildly disgruntled player for KS + the expiring Okafor or Ariza...

[penbeast0]

Wow, some GREAT posts on this page from VictorPage44 and vegi1. Keep it coming!

No. Those were horrible posts. The idea that no free agent will come here is pure bunk. Free agents go to whomever has the most money (unless they're on the downside of their careers and are ring chasing).

And that doesn't matter anyhow because you don't build a team through free agency. You build it through the draft and augment it with free agency. Bad teams don't stay bad forever. Where was Philly 3 years ago? Where was Indiana 2 years ago? Where was Minnesota last year? You build through the draft, get some talent, make a trade or two to get some veteran leadership and you get decent. Then you add a free agent or two to get good.

I firmly believe we had the reached the "decent" stage. The Nene acquisition was perfect. We were on our way to being a solid, up-and-coming team like Indiana was last year. If we had won 35 games this year with Nene plus the youngsters, we would have shed our bad reputation. Next summer, we would have had the cap room to add some complimentary talent.

Now all that cap room is gone and the talent we added is overpaid and redundant to what we have on the roster.

Although that stretch at the end of last year was pretty impressive, I hate this trade a lot less than I hated the Nene trade. Okafor is a solid player, with less health issues than Nene . . . and you only have him on the books for 2 years while Nene is going to be around forever with that big albatross of a contract. If his health deteriorates, it's Rashard Lewis all over again and he's at a dangerous age for health. Ariza . . . frankly I'm less impressed by him than most posters seem to be . . .

[closg00]

Wow, some GREAT posts on this page from VictorPage44 and vegi1. Keep it coming!

No. Those were horrible posts. The idea that no free agent will come here is pure bunk. Free agents go to whomever has the most money (unless they're on the downside of their careers and are ring chasing).

And that doesn't matter anyhow because you don't build a team through free agency. You build it through the draft and augment it with free agency. Bad teams don't stay bad forever. Where was Philly 3 years ago? Where was Indiana 2 years ago? Where was Minnesota last year? You build through the draft, get some talent, make a trade or two to get some veteran leadership and you get decent. Then you add a free agent or two to get good.

I firmly believe we had the reached the "decent" stage. The Nene acquisition was perfect. We were on our way to being a solid, up-and-coming team like Indiana was last year. If we had won 35 games this year with Nene plus the youngsters, we would have shed our bad reputation. Next summer, we would have had the cap room to add some complimentary talent.

Now all that cap room is gone and the talent we added is overpaid and redundant to what we have on the roster.

Exactly right Nate, we were actually on the right-track the way we ended the season.

*We had great chemistry despite the roster imbalance
*We were finding ways to win
*We had cap-space
*We had 3 picks in the draft with flexibility to make draft-night deals

Ted and Ernie let the direction of the team be dictated by Shard's contract and what to do with it. They chose YET another set of downward rental players in-exchange for a short-term return to mediocrity. Mediocre enough to win a few more games, increase ticket sales because the team is "better", then repeat the entire shell-game again in two years when Okafor and Ariza's contracts are going to expire. It's the same con-game that Ernie has always run and this-time Ted's on-board.

[tontoz]

This is where the question will have to be answered : Do you pay Wall a max deal or not... That is another point but if Wall is a may cap hold, than this team will have improved and will be an attracting destination. and if KS plays like late last season you might get a very good mildly disgruntled player for KS + the expiring Okafor or Ariza...

Why would we trade away a two way big? The idea is to add a quality player, not get rid of them. You can do that when you have cap space. Without it your options are limited.

That is what this trade did, limited the Wizards options to make significant upgrades with minimal short term benefit.

[montestewart]

exactly what is the side-by-side comparison of Okafor's and Nene's health issues? They seem pretty comparable there to me.

Those that really hated the Nene trade (Dat2U, Nivek, others) would seem to really hate this trade, not only because it seems like more of the same, but because it compounds the problems they predicted could result from trading for such players (age, injuries, contracts) while doing a big favor for another team in the process.

[WallTown02]

Initially I was furious that we didn't get the #10 back.

After spending some time and reading this entire thread (wow it moves fast), I think i'm more on the positive side. Basically,

1) I'm happy that i'll get to enjoy Wiz games again and not be thinking about our lottery position all year,

2) even if there were better alternatives out there, these two guys are professionals that play tough D. Also, maybe a loser mentality, but there were certainly scenarios that could've been much worse - what if we gave Ryan Anderson $10M a year for 4 years and then realized he's not that efficient without Dwight, and finally

3) They are only 2 year deals. I think that we still have plenty of flexibility. If not this season, then next season, they will be two expiring deals that can actually still step on the court without embarrassing themselves. Large expirings, young prospects and picks can lead to disgruntled stars.

So anyways, the offseason is far from over. I've been a fan of MKG because I think he has a higher ceiling than Beal/Barnes. My initial reaction was there is no chance we take him after this trade. However, the rumblings say its still possible.

How would this remaining offseason make you guys feel?

Draft MKG and Crowder.

Trade Okafor, Crawford, Singleton and a protected 2013 first for Kevin Martin (giving away too much?)

Sign your pick of 3&D guy - Danny Green, Brandon Rush, etc.

Lineup:

Wall/Mack
Martin/Green/Crowder
Ariza/MKG/Crowder
Nene/Booker/Vesely
Seraphin/Nene/Vesely

[7-Day Dray]

Wow, some GREAT posts on this page from VictorPage44 and vegi1. Keep it coming!

No. Those were horrible posts. The idea that no free agent will come here is pure bunk. Free agents go to whomever has the most money (unless they're on the downside of their careers and are ring chasing).

.

Joe Johnson left a title contender to join at 13 win Hawks team. If it wasn't for the Hawks blowing so many top draft picks they could have been title contenders, and that team was a national joke a few years ago.

+1000. Free agents follow the $$$$$

[veji1]

Exactly right Nate, we were actually on the right-track the way we ended the season.

*We had great chemistry despite the roster imbalance
*We were finding ways to win
*We had cap-space
*We had 3 picks in the draft with flexibility to make draft-night deals

Ted and Ernie let the direction of the team be dictated by Shard's contract and what to do with it. They chose YET another set of downward rental players in-exchange for a short-term return to mediocrity. Mediocre enough to win a few more games, increase ticket sales because the team is "better", then repeat the entire shell-game again in two years when Okafor and Ariza's contracts are going to expire. It's the same con-game that Ernie has always run and this-time Ted's on-board.

I can understand your point of view, but I must say I fan the attitude of many of the fans to be very demeaning towards competitive sport and how hard it is. What is the shame in having a middle of the tables team that plays hard to win, gives you competitive games most of the time when you are in the stands ? Is a Wizard team winning 40 games next year just "mediocre" ? as in almost a waste really...

Can't you just enjoy the ride ? this team will be competitive. It won't be brilliant, to win it will have to play sound basketball : Defend hard, pressure the other team into taking bad shots, box out and fight on the defensive board, run the fastbreak as much as they can when they can, play the inside-out game when on the half court.. This is how they will have to play, and how they will grow as a team...

And in 2 years time you can see what you got. Wall and Beal are a great combination and KS might very well be the burly 18/9/2 F/C lots and lots of teams dream to have.. If the young players use this time surrounded by vets to grow and learn it is a winning scenario. Because than in 2 years time what Indiana was able to do in signing West for example : attract quality FAs for an almost reasonable price.

I don't know but I must say I am quite looking forward to see what Wall-Beal-Ariza-Nene-Okafor with Crawford and Ks playing 25 minutes of the bench can do. Add a decent back up PG and you got a scrappy defensive team that will fight and bite its way to Play off contention. How refreshing !

[Silvie Lysandra]

Why is everyone blithely assuming this trade makes us a playoff team when we weren't before?

I think we were a fringe playoff team by doing nothing. Okafor and Ariza add almost nothing to our team, other than being mediocre veterans. Okafor is quite frankly the worst player in our big-man rotation (Ves, Booker, Seraphin and Nene are all better). How much better is Ariza better than Singleton? Not enough to justify trading for him.

This trade adds literally NO value to our roster - that is my problem with it.

[tontoz]

Can't you just enjoy the ride ? this team will be competitive. !

First of all it is hard to enjoy the ride when other cars have been passing you for years. Secondly there is every reason to believe this team would have been competitive without adding two badly overpaid, averge/below average players.

[cwb3]

If this trade makes the Wizards look at least reasonably competent and competative on the court, then I am for it. I want to see some sober professionals out there working hard, even if the results are fair to middling. That is far better than we have been subjected to over the past few years.

[jivelikenice]

Can't you just enjoy the ride ? this team will be competitive. !

First of all it is hard to enjoy the ride when other cars have been passing you for years. Secondly there is every reason to believe this team would have been competitive without adding two badly overpaid, averge/below average players.

About your second point; how much of an improvement did you expect from the status quo? How many wins would you have expected if we kept everythign as-is and simply added Beal and possibly a sub MLE vet?

[nate33]

Why is everyone blithely assuming this trade makes us a playoff team when we weren't before?

I think we were a fringe playoff team by doing nothing. Okafor and Ariza add almost nothing to our team, other than being mediocre veterans. Okafor is quite frankly the worst player in our big-man rotation (Ves, Booker, Seraphin and Nene are all better). How much better is Ariza better than Singleton? Not enough to justify trading for him.

This trade adds literally NO value to our roster - that is my problem with it.

Exactly.

Okafor will take minutes from players that are roughly as good or better (Nene and Seraphin) so he doesn't really provide anything except insurance if there are injuries. He's probably marginally better than Vesely and Booker right now, but maybe not for long.

Ariza is an extremely replaceable guy. Danny Green would have been a better player and a better fit for less money.

[nate33]

If this trade makes the Wizards look at least reasonably competent and competative on the court, then I am for it. I want to see some sober professionals out there working hard, even if the results are fair to middling. That is far better than we have been subjected to over the past few years.

The Wizards looked reasonably competent ever since the McGee trade except that they can't shoot open jumpers. They have a +1.3 point differential in 25 games post-trade. That's a 3rd of a season so it's a pretty decent sample size. They were insanely good with Nene actually on the floor, but that's probably more of a low sample size fluke. Nevertheless, that same team, plus Beal and Danny Green, might very well have played .500 ball this year if Wall and Nene stayed reasonably healthy.

[Saqs]

Okafor will take minutes from players that are roughly as good or better (Nene and Seraphin)...

Why because he's a high paid veteran? Remember who your coach is....

[WizarDynasty]

If this trade makes the Wizards look at least reasonably competent and competative on the court, then I am for it. I want to see some sober professionals out there working hard, even if the results are fair to middling. That is far better than we have been subjected to over the past few years.

The Wizards looked reasonably competent ever since the McGee trade except that they can't shoot open jumpers. They have a +1.3 point differential in 25 games post-trade. That's a 3rd of a season so it's a pretty decent sample size. They were insanely good with Nene actually on the floor, but that's probably more of a low sample size fluke. Nevertheless, that same team, plus Beal and Danny Green, might very well have played .500 ball this year if Wall and Nene stayed reasonably healthy.

I think its more important to cite wizards record against playoff teams since mcgee's departure. I don't think there was much of an improvement but i could be wrong. Not the games were the playoff team sat there starters for a significant portion of the game either. Those sample games should provide alot more useful information. The most important of which is that the team didn't have a superstar and needs a player on the roster with superstar potential since this is our last chance for another decade to acquire a top 3 talent.

[jivelikenice]

If this trade makes the Wizards look at least reasonably competent and competative on the court, then I am for it. I want to see some sober professionals out there working hard, even if the results are fair to middling. That is far better than we have been subjected to over the past few years.

People will always need something to gripe about. You would have heard the following regardless of the scenario:

Jeff Green- We overpaid for an overrated player

Batum- Too much money for a glorified 3 n D player. We lost future cap flexibility

Eric Gordon- Too much money for an injured player. Did we learn from Gilbert?

Anyone of the numerous SG/SF MLE types available- Are they that much of an upgrade over Cartier? We could have signed Danny Green for half the price

Drafting MKG- Don't we care about shooting

Drafting Beal- We drafted for need!

Drafting Barnes- Typical Ernie move

Amnestying Dray- Why didn't we package him in a trade down to dump his salary, or we should have rebuilt his value and then dealt him (this may be a stretch; but if there isn't universal rejoice after amnestying Dray there should be a temporary ban from posting;)

We're a better team now. We didn't sacrifice any young assets. My opinion is the roster reshuffling isn't over. Lastly, young players can still have mninutes but will have to work for it. The period of entitlement is over. We'll also have cap space when we realistically can be a destination for a FA.

I'm not ecstatic about the deal, but I'm good with it.

[nate33]

If this trade makes the Wizards look at least reasonably competent and competative on the court, then I am for it. I want to see some sober professionals out there working hard, even if the results are fair to middling. That is far better than we have been subjected to over the past few years.

The Wizards looked reasonably competent ever since the McGee trade except that they can't shoot open jumpers. They have a +1.3 point differential in 25 games post-trade. That's a 3rd of a season so it's a pretty decent sample size. They were insanely good with Nene actually on the floor, but that's probably more of a low sample size fluke. Nevertheless, that same team, plus Beal and Danny Green, might very well have played .500 ball this year if Wall and Nene stayed reasonably healthy.

I think its more important to cite wizards record against playoff teams since mcgee's departure. I don't think there was much of an improvement but i could be wrong. Not the games were the playoff team sat there starters for a significant portion of the game either. Those sample games should provide alot more useful information. The most important of which is that the team didn't have a superstar and needs a player on the roster with superstar potential since this is our last chance for another decade to acquire a top 3 talent.

Why? First you beat bad teams, then you learn how to beat good teams. There are a lot of bad teams in this league. Win those games and throw in a few good home wins against good teams and you've got yourself a .500 record.

Nobody is saying the team is ready to contend for a title next year. We're just saying that they are on the verge of being a respectable, competent ball club.