Political Roundtable Part XV

[Wizardspride]

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The biggest trick that Republicans ever pulled was convincing people that they're the party of fiscal responsibility. The Republican party ethos is tax cuts for the rich, that's it. It's amazing the American people think that putting these clowns in charge of government will push America in the right direction.

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And people actually believed the "GOP is for fiscal restraint" meme.

[Wizardspride]

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[stilldropin20]

trumps tax proposal is excellent.

Although it doesn't address my first order politics (which is to redistribute wealth from wealthy to the poor) it does factor in my second order politics (to stimulate the economy) via repatriating trillions of dollars and mainly US corporations to make the existing (feudal and therefore totalitarian) government at least more tolerable.

Scene 1 - About a 1000 years ago at the castle of Baron von Drumpf
Baron to his trusted advisor Herr Drupenzwanzig: "I should be happy. The serfs have to give me almost everything they grow, and I grab all of their pussy I want. But I still want more, and I want them to love me too. It's not fair. They should be grateful for all I do for them.
Herr Drupenzwanzig: "Well, I have some ideas. Back in Pullman when I was a boy...."
Baron: "Stop, stop. I've heard that 20 times already. Just make it happen.

Scene 2 - 6 months later
Baron: "How did you do it Herr Drupenzwanzig? Serf production is way up, and they love me. And the young pussy - wow."
Herr Drupenzwanzig: "Just watch what's happening in the courtyard".
Baron: "Why are they stoning Feinberg the butcher, and Cohen the tailor. And why are Feinberg and Cohen dressed in suits and tophats?
Drupenzwanzig: "I told the serfs the real story. Feinberg and Cohen are international bankers charging you exorbitant interest rates. That's why the serfs had to work so hard. To pay off your loans.
Baron: "Why are they kicking and beating those gypsies?"
Drupenzwanzig: "The serfs now know the truth. Gypsies are lazy dishonest rapists. The serfs had to work harder because the gypsies weren't producing, and that you had to take the young serf girls to the castle to protect them from the gypsies".
Baron: "You're brilliant Herr Drupenzwanzig."

So I'm herzanzig, drump is drump, the surfs are the horse and you're don Quixote?

Nooooooo? Not quite the way you wrote it. I'm don quixote, you're the horse, drump is Trump, and the NFL football players are grabbing all the pussy?

Nope, not quite the way you wrote it either. Im the horse, drump is don quixo.....oh never mind.

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

[Wizardspride]

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[dckingsfan]

its a pretty damn awesome tax plan. tbh.

No - not really - it is at best - meh.

the best part imo is small business pass corp (ch-s) pay 25% instead of 39% (over 75K-haven't looked in a while...might have gone up to 100-118k) But still. why should large business pay 20% and small business pay 39%? Trump gets it.

Oversimplification - but okay.

If You truly believe in capitalism and you are posting in these pages then you have to love that right there. Any independent "mom and pop" contractor that "works" for himself essentially sets up his bus as an s-corp if he has even half a brain cell. This is huge tax break for them. protecting small businesses should be the heart and soul of any "american first" tax plan. Why protect big bus and not small? The mom n pop business is almost dead in america, all prey to large business. even small dive bars and sandwich shops like potbelly and cafes's like starbucks have fully infiltrated americana as "good." all behind the big capital of investment bankers who take and make the lion's share of those businesses. of course the founder generally end up "rich" too. But that's not what this country was suppose to be about. I'd rather 5000 different families own their own cafe across america than 1 family owning all 5000 with goldman sachs actually owning 85% of the corp. and the profits.

thats a huge win for the american people.

No, the carveouts for large businesses - especially around purchases of other businesses are still there. Trump and the Rs are to wimpy to take this on. I posted this - you probably didn't read it first - just started typing?

also the no tax below $24K (currently 10%) if married is intended to "encourage family values" again. Poor people will surivive the thrive better, together. $24K is the national average amount of entitlements a single mother with 1 child would receive. so she is disincentivised to work if she makes less than 24K. add to this the work Ivanka is attempting to accomplish for mom's and single moms where day care is provided for free for working mom's. Combine the tax relief plus incentive to be married and the day care for children and maybe this new tax legislation can begin to help repair the "family" in our poorest communities. Instead of just a typical entitlement for not working, sitting at home, having kids.

You might want to read this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/upshot/how-did-marriage-become-a-mark-of-privilege.html?mcubz=0

Most working mom's are just that - working and not sitting home.

It does not really matter where 12,25,35% cuttoffs are. because the old brackets of 27-34% was right around 30-55K. so who cares? 25 is better than 27 so its going to be better than that. top end 39.6 down to 35 helps but this aint really a big deal to those making 200K and up. they save $8k is merely a jesture but doesn't change their lives. the big help is when you combine it with the s-corp pass through reduciton down to 25%. especially given that most people over 300K own their own business (s-corp) which their corp can now retain assets (unrealized on personal income) and the actual tax will be 25%. Huge!!!! maybe we can afford obama care for their employees now and its 5-10K deductables? just sayin.

Where the cutoffs matter is in the ability to minimize deficit.

what we will find happening is more and more people are going to request to be hired as independent contractors to take advantage of the 25% pass through bracket which will ease the burden on the employer(big bus or small) and the what would have been w-2 employee.

I mean...everyone is getting a tax brake. Nobody's taxes went up!!!! is there a single far left destroy trump at all costs liberal on here that doesn't like this? if you like to keep your own money you should be calling your reps and senators right now and telling them to get on board with this plan.

in terms of getting rid of inheritance tax. as you guys should know. I'm against it wholly and fully. I made proposals 2 pages back to seize all that wealth and didn't get a single and-1 and infact got called stupid. so you guys dont want to "take" the wealth back anyway. You accept things the way they are. I dont. but if the majority does. then this tax proposal is down right amazing. to everyone. everyone benefits. and if this gets cut out in congress even better.

and dont even make the argument about what this tax brake is going to cost. health care costs money too. so does education. so do entitlement. everything. Obama just spent 10 trillion in 8 years. I got told on these pages we "cant seize the oil." we cant "seize the wealth" back from the wealthy. we cant take back the gold. we cant nationalize the banks... so in essence we are going to continue to run up negative balance sheets and be in debt forever. If thats the case, you may as well give us some of our own money back in the form of tax relief each year before all of us that are capable, move to switzerland or new zealand.

Other than the ramblings... yes, removing the inheritance tax makes it NOT awesome.

[FAH1223]

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Our economic policy focuses little on the demand side. And it's been that way for 40 fooking years.

Always supply side.

[dckingsfan]

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Our economic policy focuses little on the demand side. And it's been that way for 40 fooking years.

Always supply side.

FAH - he may be right but he starts with a simple statement that doesn't really describe all that happened - he only took a very small part of what actually happened - the decreasing tax rates for the top end since 1980 weren't the only reason for inequality.

He doesn't describe other factors that were equally at play since the 70s. Namely, increased taxes on corporations, increased tax carveouts that favored purchasing companies over developing products, growth of services vs. agriculture and industry, deficit spending that reduced spending on infrastructure and R&D, (Google, Apple, Microsoft), etc., etc., etc.

It is like he is describing flying a plane and only talks about engine RPM, not windspeed, altitude, etc.

It is a simple argument and it is only partially correct - the larger reason for inequality has been Globalization, computers (Google, Apple, Microsoft), carveouts to allow large companies to get tax deductions when purchasing other companies - now the current Forbes 400 is now primarily made up of newly wealthy business owners, not heirs and heiresses.

So, he is right tax cuts for the rich aren't moral or helpful. But his overall argument is weak and unproven.

And his argument that we need to invest in the American people is right - but he doesn't go into why more and more our receipts are diverted away from education. And why the return on our tax dollars toward education is shrinking in real terms.

I give his video a "half-true" grade.

[stilldropin20]

CNN-Don Lemon: "fake black activists facebook accounts (multiple) with links to russia stirring up racial divide on both sides." Good piece tonight on this tonight.


I've been saying it for 20 pages now. We do NOT have a severe racial divide in this country in 2017. We have a fake divide. We are not that divided. We still have some ground to cover for sure, especially in some good ol boy small towns. And south of I80 but its not the divide CNN, facebook, and FOX made it out to be for the last 12 months. I mean I felt like I got transported back to the 70's for a while.

All i know is the best people I personally have met on this planet are black and brown. The nicest, the most helpful, the least judgmental, and the most intelligent.(edit to add: and sooooooooo much more!!!!!!!) my closest friends are 80% black and brown.

Kudos to Don Lemon for doing that piece tonight and not continuing to flame up the race issues we still clearly have and ground we have to cover but "flaming them up" with gasoline does no one any good.

Edit to also add:

(preface: i understand that this isn't breaking news for some if not most. And i dont mind if you choose to mistake my "simple" anecdotes and writing style and often simple message for lack of nuance and complex understanding. You do you. I'll do me)

Edit : if you have racially motivated issues(even if just racial bias) inside your heart then I seriously suggest you get help and quick. there's nothing wrong with you per se but you do need help and you do need to change the way you think about race. I encourage to fully embrace diversity for it is the way of the world. That doesn't mean you cant be a nationalist. That doesn't mean you cant want to help american's "first." it's only natural for you to want to help your neighbor and friend first. American's are made up of every single race on the planet. "America first" is not being a racist. But if you feel in your heart that racism or sexism or elitism, etc. is a motivational factor, then you should get some serious help (from non-racists. and please do so quickly). read more. learn more. free yourself from your fears and/or your misguided "education." You will be benefit. We all will be benefit.

For those that are non-racists and more educated/evolved and "out in front" of these racial issues I ask of you to NOT be so impatient with those that are behind. You can easily end up mistakenly flame racial issues for those that are less evolved in these matters. let's talk about this calmly, rationally, respectfully so as to bridge these final gaps in race with those that have been misguided and mis-informed to think that some race needs to fear or feel inferior or make-to-feel inferior any other race. Let's help to put racial issues finally behind us as americans, as human beings. They will eventually come around. But it is important that they do come around. We, the (poor) people of the world are truly "in this together." IMO, and we are headed down a difficult showdown with the ultra wealthy elite ruling class who want to badly retain their wealth and power over all of us. They are the one's that created the public policies that have the country in massive debt(to them). The days will come where we will have to face that mounting debt. face the strain their policies have put on the environment. face the eventual lack of resources like potentially food for they have hoarded most of the wealth and they are not giving it up with out a fight. and they know how to fight without lifting a finger.

So i guess this was my segue into the racial "stats" from a few pages earlier. A poster was posting stats describing black people as being more violent. And this poster is clearly intelligent and might just be making a point, so i will leave that alone. I'm not going to label somebody I dont know. But those stats, even if they are correct, do not explain why. And i'm not conceding that the stats are even based on "good studies." I'm a man of science. you can make even a scientific study say what you want depending on how one "collects and analyzes" the data and that's while using the scientific method. But in these studies, the results dont matter because the why is what makes all of the difference. i've been rambling on for pages about poor people being "pitted" against each other for centuries by the ruling class. and this has occurred across the globe. I've done this to illustrate a point however simple and widely accepted. Still someone needs to say the it though, the simple message. because as simple as it is we clearly dont get it. if we "got it" there would be no need for this discussion on racism. racism would not exist is we fully undrestood it. let me say it again, Poor folks have been pitted against other. In the early days, I imagine the poor were the physically weak. true gangsta style. Just enter a cave and take what you want. then the smarter humans learned to band together and defeat the less intelligent however physically outmatched. The intelligent became the "haves" and likely retained control (the elite ruling class) and they have successfully become the owners of the globe. As the human race grew. They got mor eorganized. They created language. math. hierachy. then stuff like religion. all in the name of production (at first for themselves to consume and enjoy) but realized that needed to create economies which also consumed and linked that with even more production. and there is some good in it, production and consumption, invention. But mostly pain and suffering by the groups at the bottom which often make up the vast majority of any given population. and some group has always been at the very bottom in terms of being exploited and that varies in different parts of the world. But in this country no race has suffered more from this "pitting against each" and exploitation than black people via institutional slavery and racism. And that is why those mis leading stats may have even an ounce of truth in them.

I know its a simple concept for all the savants in this thread but Please indulge me once again. If you constrict basic needs enough (and in the modern world that means the money supply), you will create despair then desperation. Its despair, desperation and such that leads to fear.

So dont fall for it! and definitely do not fall for any stats that say black people are more violent that white people.


and that's my #FMR (friday morning ramble. #sorrynotsorry. #weareallinthistogether

[cammac]

CNN-Don Lemon: "fake black activists facebook accounts (multiple) with links to russia stirring up racial divide on both sides." Good piece tonight on this tonight.


I've been saying it for 20 pages now. We do NOT have a severe racial divide in this country in 2017. We have a fake divide. We are not that divided. We still have some ground to cover for sure, especially in some good ol boy small towns. And south of I80 but its not the divide CNN, facebook, and FOX made it out to be for the last 12 months. I mean I felt like I got transported back to the 70's for a while.

All i know is the best people I personally have met on this planet are black and brown. The nicest, the most helpful, the least judgmental, and the most intelligent. my closest friends are 80% black and brown.

Kudos to Don Lemon for doing that piece tonight and not continuing to flame up the race issues we still clearly have and ground we have to cover but "flaming them up" with gasoline does no one any good.

I agree with you about Don Lemon who I believe is the best of the moderators on CNN yes he is outspoken but in general his guests are intelligent and he does cover a wide range of political opinion.

That said the primary election in Alabama with Moore becoming the Republican candidate it is not just a black & white but a religious freedom fight, civil liberties fight and I hope the Democrats pour massive resources into beating this scourge to democracy.

As more is revealed the new tax laws are looking more and more of a tax grab for the rich.

[Wizardspride]

CNN-Don Lemon: "fake black activists facebook accounts (multiple) with links to russia stirring up racial divide on both sides." Good piece tonight on this tonight.


I've been saying it for 20 pages now. We do NOT have a severe racial divide in this country in 2017. We have a fake divide. We are not that divided. We still have some ground to cover for sure, especially in some good ol boy small towns. And south of I80 but its not the divide CNN, facebook, and FOX made it out to be for the last 12 months. I mean I felt like I got transported back to the 70's for a while.

All i know is the best people I personally have met on this planet are black and brown. The nicest, the most helpful, the least judgmental, and the most intelligent. my closest friends are 80% black and brown.

Kudos to Don Lemon for doing that piece tonight and not continuing to flame up the race issues we still clearly have and ground we have to cover but "flaming them up" with gasoline does no one any good.

I have to disagree with you.

We have some major issues in this country in regards to race. Heck, for many just bringing race up elicits hostility.

And no, I'm not comparing it to the 60s but yeah, the divide is real.

[Zonkerbl]

CNN-Don Lemon: "fake black activists facebook accounts (multiple) with links to russia stirring up racial divide on both sides." Good piece tonight on this tonight.


I've been saying it for 20 pages now. We do NOT have a severe racial divide in this country in 2017. We have a fake divide. We are not that divided. We still have some ground to cover for sure, especially in some good ol boy small towns. And south of I80 but its not the divide CNN, facebook, and FOX made it out to be for the last 12 months. I mean I felt like I got transported back to the 70's for a while.

All i know is the best people I personally have met on this planet are black and brown. The nicest, the most helpful, the least judgmental, and the most intelligent. my closest friends are 80% black and brown.

Kudos to Don Lemon for doing that piece tonight and not continuing to flame up the race issues we still clearly have and ground we have to cover but "flaming them up" with gasoline does no one any good.

I have to disagree with you.

We have some major issues in this country in regards to race. Heck, for many just bringing race up elicits hostility.

And no, I'm not comparing it to the 60s but yeah, the divide is real.

If there was no racial divide in this country, there'd be nothing for the Russians to stir up *shrug*

[stilldropin20]

CNN-Don Lemon: "fake black activists facebook accounts (multiple) with links to russia stirring up racial divide on both sides." Good piece tonight on this tonight.


I've been saying it for 20 pages now. We do NOT have a severe racial divide in this country in 2017. We have a fake divide. We are not that divided. We still have some ground to cover for sure, especially in some good ol boy small towns. And south of I80 but its not the divide CNN, facebook, and FOX made it out to be for the last 12 months. I mean I felt like I got transported back to the 70's for a while.

All i know is the best people I personally have met on this planet are black and brown. The nicest, the most helpful, the least judgmental, and the most intelligent. my closest friends are 80% black and brown.

Kudos to Don Lemon for doing that piece tonight and not continuing to flame up the race issues we still clearly have and ground we have to cover but "flaming them up" with gasoline does no one any good.

I have to disagree with you.

We have some major issues in this country in regards to race. Heck, for many just bringing race up elicits hostility.

And no, I'm not comparing it to the 60s but yeah, the divide is real.

If there was no racial divide in this country, there'd be nothing for the Russians to stir up *shrug*

i edited my post.

if its too much for you to read let me say this. Both of your posts do absolutely nothing to help bridge the racial divide. In issue like racism, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. I'll leave it at that.

[Wizardspride]

I have to disagree with you.

We have some major issues in this country in regards to race. Heck, for many just bringing race up elicits hostility.

And no, I'm not comparing it to the 60s but yeah, the divide is real.

If there was no racial divide in this country, there'd be nothing for the Russians to stir up *shrug*

i edited my post.

if its too much for you ftto read let me say this. Both of your posts do absolutely nothing to help bridge the racial divide. In issue like racism, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. I'll leave it at that.

So discussing it is part of the problem.

Got it.

[Pointgod]

If there was no racial divide in this country, there'd be nothing for the Russians to stir up *shrug*

i edited my post.

if its too much for you ftto read let me say this. Both of your posts do absolutely nothing to help bridge the racial divide. In issue like racism, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. I'll leave it at that.

So discussing it is part of the problem.

Got it.

Yes indeed. Not talking about racism will make it go away.

http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/new-poll-some-americans-express-troubling-racial-attitudes-even-as-majority-oppose-white-supremacists/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/08/02/white-trump-voters-think-they-face-more-discrimination-than-blacks-the-trump-administration-is-listening/

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/08/18/us/ordinary-white-supremacists/index.html

[Ruzious]

As long as we have organized white supremacists somehow walking upright on 2 feet, we have a significant race problem.

[Pointgod]

As long as we have organized white supremacists somehow walking upright on 2 feet, we have a significant race problem.

Naw you gotta realize that people that call out racism are the real racists.

[Zonkerbl]

As long as we have organized white supremacists somehow walking upright on 2 feet, we have a significant race problem.

Naw you gotta realize that people that call out racism are the real racists.

Honestly I don't think Nazis are the problem. From where I sit as an economist, it's the institutionalized racism built into the criminal justice system. It's casual, passive bias that hurts more than nazis. The stuff that gets blown off as "being politically correct." That stuff is the *heart* of the problem. Being aware of the subtle biases we built into the instructions we've given our police. Taking steps to counter it, like legalizing marijuana and decriminalizing heroin. You can see in the statistics what several generations of differential treatment at the hands of the police has accomplished, just look at the statistics Nate showed a few pages back.

I'm tired of people pointing at political correctness and saying "because of those bad behaving people who take political correctness too far I get to laugh it off and pretend there isn't a problem." It's weak. We're a weak, cowardly nation that's afraid to take responsibility for the suffering we've inflicted.

[gtn130]

As long as we have organized white supremacists somehow walking upright on 2 feet, we have a significant race problem.

Naw you gotta realize that people that call out racism are the real racists.

Honestly I don't think Nazis are the problem. From where I sit as an economist, it's the institutionalized racism built into the criminal justice system. It's casual, passive bias that hurts more than nazis.

This is why a Pence presidency would be worse than Trump's dumpster fire. Trump, being the imbecile that he is, is inadvertently shining a light on these problems, while neocons like Pence have been strategically messaging this stuff for decades.

[gtn130]

I have to disagree with you.

We have some major issues in this country in regards to race. Heck, for many just bringing race up elicits hostility.

And no, I'm not comparing it to the 60s but yeah, the divide is real.

If there was no racial divide in this country, there'd be nothing for the Russians to stir up *shrug*

i edited my post.

if its too much for you to read let me say this. Both of your posts do absolutely nothing to help bridge the racial divide. In issue like racism, you are either part of the solution or part of the problem. I'll leave it at that.

Meanwhile your 10,000 word monologues are actively saving humanity

[DCZards]

The intelligent became the "haves" and likely retained control (the elite ruling class) and they have successfully become the owners of the globe. As the human race grew. They got mor eorganized. They created language. math. hierachy. then stuff like religion. all in the name of production (at first for themselves to consume and enjoy) but realized that needed to create economies which also consumed and linked that with even more production. and there is some good in it, production and consumption, invention. But mostly pain and suffering by the groups at the bottom which often make up the vast majority of any given population. and some group has always been at the very bottom in terms of being exploited and that varies in different parts of the world. But in this country no race has suffered more from this "pitting against each" and exploitation than black people via institutional slavery and racism. And that is why those mis leading stats may have even an ounce of truth in them.

I disagree that the "haves" in this country (and elsewhere in many cases) got that way because they were more intelligent. Many of the haves in this country got that way because their ancestors were violent and heartless, virtually wiping out the Native Americans and stealing their land, and enslaving Africans and discriminating against them for centuries. In other words, early racism.

A lot of the wealth and privilege in this country dates back centuries, and has been passed on from generation to generation in the form of property, businesses, social networks, access to the top schools, etc. Bottom line: Some of the wealthiest people and families (or haves) in this country owe their wealth to this nation’s sordid history, and not because they're more "intelligent" than the so-called have-nots.