2021 Draft thread. Woo! 15th pick here we come! Hoo. Ray.

[NatP4]

According to that list+tankathon mock, you could get lucky and land #1, then trade down to #3 and pick Suggs+pickup another pick at #12 and take Wagner also.

Or trade down from #1 to #2 and pickup another #20ish and take Mobley and Butler.

No chance I would pick Cunningham at #1.

[nate33]

According to that list+tankathon mock, you could get lucky and land #1, then trade down to #3 and pick Suggs+pickup another pick at #12 and take Wagner also.

Or trade down from #1 to #2 and pickup another #20ish and take Mobley and Butler.

No chance I would pick Cunningham at #1.

Yes. If we landed the #1 pick, a trade down to #2 or #3 would be awesome. It would still be tough to pull off though. Trading from 1 to 2 requires our trade partner to believe our bluff that we would draft Cade if we stay at #1. Trading all the way down to #3 significantly reduces our chances of drafting Mobley. I think Mobley is far preferable to Suggs if we're talking about using our own lottery pick to add a player to the Westbrook/Beal core. (If we traded Beal for a high pick, then drafting Suggs with that pick could certainly make sense.)

[Kanyewest]

I just don't see it.

I think he's a fine player. A very smart player. But he's more of a glue guy, not a primary option and not an elite on-ball shut down defender. At best, he peaks out as the 3rd best player on a good team. He's basically Otto Porter with a less reliable 3-ball. Teams can certainly use guys like that, but they're typically not the 3rd best player in a draft, particularly a strong draft like this one.

I do think you are right in singling him out as being underrated. But I think he's more like the 6th or 7th best guy in this draft, not the 3rd.

Probably the 2nd best defensive player in the country behind Mobley, shooting the 3 at 38% on a solid amount of attempts. Excellent free throw shooter. Much better playmaker and driver, more explosive and stronger athlete, better frame than Otto Porter (who was an excellent player when healthy). Would you rather have a healthy prime Otto Porter, or a present day Jayson Tatum?

Regardless, you should name the 6-7 players that will be better NBA players than Wagner. Suggs&Mobley will be good, Green&Cunningham are solid bets to be volume scorers. Who else? Who are the 5th and 6th guys? And why?

I wish there was a decent draft database to explore. I'd like to know how many sophomores who averaged less than 13 points per game were drafted in the top 5.

And I don't have an answer to your question about the who the 5th and 6th guys are because I haven't assessed all the prospects in this draft well enough to rank them. (And I don't plan to. I don't know how guys like Dat2U do it.) I'm just saying that history suggests that a glue guy role player is unlikely to be the 3rd best guy in a strong draft class. At spots that high, you usually expect guys who can create their own shot or big men who can change a game defensively. I'm not knocking Wagner. I agree that he is good. Just not top 3 good.

Not that many sophomores get taken in the top 5- Hunter has been the only one taken in the last 8 years between 2014 and 2020 - bolded ones that averaged less than 13 ppg.

DeAndre Hunter- 2019 (15 ppg)
Otto Porter 2013 (16 ppg)
Cody Zeller 2013 (16 ppg)
Alex Len 2013 (12 ppg)
Dion Waiters 2012 (12.6 ppg)
2011 Derrick Williams (19.5 ppg)
2009 Blake Griffin (22.7 ppg)
2009 James Harden
2008 Russell Westbrook (12.7 ppg)
2006 Lamarcus Aldridge (15 ppg)
2005 Chris Paul (15 ppg)
2003 Dwayne Wade (20+ ppg)
2001 Jason Richardson (14.7 ppg)
2000 Stromile Swift (16 ppg)
2000 Mike Miller (14 ppg)
1999 Elton Brand (17.7 ppg)
1999 Baron Davis (16 ppg)
1998 Mike Bibby (18 ppg)
1997 Chauncey Billups (19 ppg)
1996 Iverson
1995 Joe Smith
1995 Antonio McDyess (13.9 ppg)
1995 Jerry Stackhouse (19.2 ppg)
1995 Rasheed Wallace (16.6 ppg)

[prime1time]

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
I agree with this big board. I might change my opinion, but if we don't get a top 5 pick, I want either Kai Jones or Scottie Barnes. We need to get more athletic and have switchable defenders. With Barnes shooting is a problem, but I'm betting on him adding strength and being able to be a small ball 5. 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan I see shades of Bam. If the shooting can improve you are getting what can be a very special player. Not often will you see a guy with those kinds of measurables bringing the ball up the floor, guarding 94 feet and averaging 4.1 assists. With Jones you're just talking about a super quick, very athletic, long prototypical big. His presence would make us immediately more athletic and take away how most defenses try to attack us. I.e. going at our centers in PnRs. Most of all, I think both of these players complement what we already have.

[NatP4]

I’m not making the claim that Wagner will go top 5, he absolutely will not. That does not mean he won’t be one of the 5 best players in the class and better than a couple guys taken in the top 5.

Also, we have to look at per36/40 numbers.

[NatP4]

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
I agree with this big board. I might change my opinion, but if we don't get a top 5 pick, I want either Kai Jones or Scottie Barnes. We need to get more athletic and have switchable defenders. With Barnes shooting is a problem, but I'm betting on him adding strength and being able to be a small ball 5. 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan I see shades of Bam. If the shooting can improve you are getting what can be a very special player. Not often will you see a guy with those kinds of measurables bringing the ball up the floor, guarding 94 feet and averaging 4.1 assists. With Jones you're just talking about a super quick, very athletic, long prototypical big. His presence would make us immediately more athletic and take away how most defenses try to attack us. I.e. going at our centers in PnRs. Most of all, I think both of these players complement what we already have.

Couple questions here:

1. Bam Adebayo averaged 10.6 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per 40 in college. Barnes is averaging 6.7 rebounds and 0.7 blocks in college. What is the comparison? People are way off with the Draymond Green type comparisons for Barnes, He’s a big guard/ball handling wing, not a big. Much closer to PG than C.

2. Same question about Kai Jones, he averages 8.5 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 40(as a sophomore). How can you possibly project him as a NBA big? He’s more of 3&D wing that averages more than twice as many turnovers than assists.

Also, it continues to blow my mind that mocks have Keon Johnson anywhere near the lottery, let alone 6th overall!!! Why would you draft him???

[payitforward]

Perhaps not relevant, but:

2020 picks 53 and 58
53. Thunder draft Cassius Winston >> officially traded to the Wizards

58. 76ers draft Paul Reed

Watch on YouTube

And we were desperate for big man support.

Reed had almost Brandon Clarke caliber numbers in college. It was a total mystery to me why he lasted so long in the draft. I thought he'd go early in the 2nd round.

All that said, I don't get too excited when big men thrive in the G-League. The difference between good bigs in G-League and good bigs at the NBA level is massive. The disparity is much smaller with wings and guards. So, oftentimes, a good G-League guard can be called up and he'll hold his own at the NBA. That's usually not the case with bigs.

I think you are painting with a little too broad a brush here, nate -- so let me paint with an equally broad one!

The single best predictor of success tomorrow is success today. Not infallible, obviously, but there is simply no better tool. In fact, this is not only about success, obviously. The world is full of surprises, but all the same what a person did today is the single best predictor of what's he's going to do tomorrow.

This is even true when, between "today" & "tomorrow", there's a jump to a higher level of competition. Thus, even if the overall success percentages are higher for smalls, the best predictor of how well a kid playing in the G League will do in the NBA is how well he's doing in the G League. There will be false positives -- guys who play well in college but don't thrive at the next level or guys who play well in the G League but don't thrive in the NBA. But, there will be no false negatives: if a guy didn't put up good numbers in college, he won't do it in the NBA. Ditto G League to NBA.

I always thought Reed would be a good NBA player, & I still think he will. He was one of my targets in R2 (where as I'm sure was memorable I wanted at least 4 players! ).

Now, is Reed going to come into the league & score 28 points per 40 minutes at a.661 TS% while grabbing 15 boards? Hmmm..., maybe not! But, he's going to be a player.

Plus, at 6'9", 210 lbs, shooting the 3 at .444 wouldn't you say he has potential as a 3 rather than a 4?

Edit: one strong positive predictor for Reed is that his G League numbers per 40 minutes are actually better overall than his numbers per 40 minutes in his last year in college.

[NatP4]

I don’t understand why Kofi Cockburn isn’t receiving more attention. After watching Illinois in the Big 10 tourney&NCAA tourney, I can without a doubt say, Cockburn was the more impactful player than Dosunmu.

It’s hard to ignore 26&14 per 40 on 64% TS. I think there’s some Andre Drummond to his game.

[nate33]

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
I agree with this big board. I might change my opinion, but if we don't get a top 5 pick, I want either Kai Jones or Scottie Barnes. We need to get more athletic and have switchable defenders. With Barnes shooting is a problem, but I'm betting on him adding strength and being able to be a small ball 5. 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan I see shades of Bam. If the shooting can improve you are getting what can be a very special player. Not often will you see a guy with those kinds of measurables bringing the ball up the floor, guarding 94 feet and averaging 4.1 assists. With Jones you're just talking about a super quick, very athletic, long prototypical big. His presence would make us immediately more athletic and take away how most defenses try to attack us. I.e. going at our centers in PnRs. Most of all, I think both of these players complement what we already have.

Couple questions here:

1. Bam Adebayo averaged 10.6 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per 40 in college. Barnes is averaging 6.7 rebounds and 0.7 blocks in college. What is the comparison? People are way off with the Draymond Green type comparisons for Barnes, He’s a big guard/ball handling wing, not a big. Much closer to PG than C.

2. Same question about Kai Jones, he averages 8.5 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 40(as a sophomore). How can you possibly project him as a NBA big? He’s more of 3&D wing that averages more than twice as many turnovers than assists.

Also, it continues to blow my mind that mocks have Keon Johnson anywhere near the lottery, let alone 6th overall!!! Why would you draft him???

I like that prime1time is trying to pick who he likes at 6 and 7, since the top 5 are fairly non-controversial. But I gotta agree with NatP4 here. Barnes is a really bad rebounder given his measurables. It's an issue I pointed out a few pages back. And I'm also not really buying his assist rate. He is getting those assists because he has been thrust into the primary ball handler role, not because he's a particularly good passer. All I really see out of Barnes is a versatile defensive wing, but one who isn't much of a shooter. He is more like James Johnson than Bam Adebayo. Maybe Barnes will figure out the shooting part, but I wouldn't gamble a #6 or #7 pick to find out.

Kai Jones doesn't look big enough to play center. I do think he can at least fill a prototypical role in the NBA as a defensive-minded PF who can switch 1 through 5 and maybe knock down a few catch-and-shoot 3's. But he doesn't jump out to me as a freakishly good defender or rebounder, good enough to offset his lackluster offensive ability. I don't see room for him on our roster with Hachimura, Avdija and Bertans playing the same position.

[nate33]

I don’t understand why Kofi Cockburn isn’t receiving more attention. After watching Illinois in the Big 10 tourney&NCAA tourney, I can without a doubt say, Cockburn was the more impactful player than Dosunmu.

It’s hard to ignore 26&14 per 40 on 64% TS. I think there’s some Andre Drummond to his game.

I get Jahill Okafor vibes from Cockburn. He's a throwback low post player - a very good one, but that archetype just isn't useful at the NBA level anymore. Guys front the post and can zone up on the weak side to prevent the lob, so post guys just don't get enough touches. And Cockburn won't hold up at the other end of the floor. He's not a shot blocker so he won't be so good in drop coverage, and he is too slow footed to switch.

Sometime, a guy is a great college player but his game doesn't translate into the pros.

[Ruzious]

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
I agree with this big board. I might change my opinion, but if we don't get a top 5 pick, I want either Kai Jones or Scottie Barnes. We need to get more athletic and have switchable defenders. With Barnes shooting is a problem, but I'm betting on him adding strength and being able to be a small ball 5. 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan I see shades of Bam. If the shooting can improve you are getting what can be a very special player. Not often will you see a guy with those kinds of measurables bringing the ball up the floor, guarding 94 feet and averaging 4.1 assists. With Jones you're just talking about a super quick, very athletic, long prototypical big. His presence would make us immediately more athletic and take away how most defenses try to attack us. I.e. going at our centers in PnRs. Most of all, I think both of these players complement what we already have.

Couple questions here:

1. Bam Adebayo averaged 10.6 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per 40 in college. Barnes is averaging 6.7 rebounds and 0.7 blocks in college. What is the comparison? People are way off with the Draymond Green type comparisons for Barnes, He’s a big guard/ball handling wing, not a big. Much closer to PG than C.

2. Same question about Kai Jones, he averages 8.5 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 40(as a sophomore). How can you possibly project him as a NBA big? He’s more of 3&D wing that averages more than twice as many turnovers than assists.

Also, it continues to blow my mind that mocks have Keon Johnson anywhere near the lottery, let alone 6th overall!!! Why would you draft him???

I like that prime1time is trying to pick who he likes at 6 and 7, since the top 5 are fairly non-controversial. But I gotta agree with NatP4 here. Barnes is a really bad rebounder given his measurables. It's an issue I pointed out a few pages back. And I'm also not really buying his assist rate. He is getting those assists because he has been thrust into the primary ball handler role, not because he's a particularly good passer. All I really see out of Barnes is a versatile defensive wing, but one who isn't much of a shooter. He is more like James Johnson than Bam Adebayo. Maybe Barnes will figure out the shooting part, but I wouldn't gamble a #6 or #7 pick to find out.

Kai Jones doesn't look big enough to play center. I do think he can at least fill a prototypical role in the NBA as a defensive-minded PF who can switch 1 through 5 and maybe knock down a few catch-and-shoot 3's. But he doesn't jump out to me as a freakishly good defender or rebounder, good enough to offset his lackluster offensive ability. I don't see room for him on our roster with Hachimura, Avdija and Bertans playing the same position.

I'm not a Barnes guy. The combo of him not being a good shooter and not being a great athlete just doesn't do it for me for a top 10 pick. No doubt, he'll be a useful player that makes smart plays, but he has no star potential.

I like Kai Jones better, but he needs an outstanding coach and system - because he gets lost out there without any direction. Watch San Antonio get him and make him into a star - though it'll take a while for him to put it all together. Btw, I think Jericho Simms of that Texas team is going to make an NBA team as a backup center.

[NatP4]

I’m the opposite, Ruz. Kai Jones lacks feel for the game required to become a star. He does one thing well right now at 20 years old: make 3s. Struggles defensively, doesn’t rebound, not a playmaker or ball handler.

I see his ceiling as a 3&D wing.

At 19, Barnes is already a secondary ball handler and playmaker with 1-5 defensive versatility. It’s not hard to see him posting triple doubles in the NBA. I’ve posted his improved shooting numbers as the season has progressed.(has missed 2 FTs in his last 9 games) Everything is trending up. (Almost up to 56% TS) He has outstanding feel for the game. If the 3pt shooting comes, he’s a 15-6-6-2 guy with multi-position defensive versatility.

Excited to watch him against Michigan. I see his ceiling as a more athletic Kyle Anderson. Built like Giannis. Plus on both ends of the court.

[prime1time]

https://nbadraft.theringer.com/
I agree with this big board. I might change my opinion, but if we don't get a top 5 pick, I want either Kai Jones or Scottie Barnes. We need to get more athletic and have switchable defenders. With Barnes shooting is a problem, but I'm betting on him adding strength and being able to be a small ball 5. 6'9 with 7'3 wingspan I see shades of Bam. If the shooting can improve you are getting what can be a very special player. Not often will you see a guy with those kinds of measurables bringing the ball up the floor, guarding 94 feet and averaging 4.1 assists. With Jones you're just talking about a super quick, very athletic, long prototypical big. His presence would make us immediately more athletic and take away how most defenses try to attack us. I.e. going at our centers in PnRs. Most of all, I think both of these players complement what we already have.

Couple questions here:

1. Bam Adebayo averaged 10.6 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per 40 in college. Barnes is averaging 6.7 rebounds and 0.7 blocks in college. What is the comparison? People are way off with the Draymond Green type comparisons for Barnes, He’s a big guard/ball handling wing, not a big. Much closer to PG than C.

2. Same question about Kai Jones, he averages 8.5 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 40(as a sophomore). How can you possibly project him as a NBA big? He’s more of 3&D wing that averages more than twice as many turnovers than assists.

Also, it continues to blow my mind that mocks have Keon Johnson anywhere near the lottery, let alone 6th overall!!! Why would you draft him???

Well, it has more to do with the physical profile than actual numbers. I don't look at numbers that closely to be honest. They guide me, but when it comes to big men I look more for potential, because I assume they will require a lot of coaching up. So with Barnes I'm looking at a guy who's 6'9, has a 7'3 wingspan, averaged 4.1 assists, shot 50% from the field, brought the ball up the court, and guarded guards 94 feet. Now if there was a player who does everything that Adebayo did in college I would draft him. But not even Adebayo in college did what Adeabyo's doing now. Bam in college averaged .7 assists. When you look into numbers too much, I think they can blind you. It's easy to knock Barnes lack of blocks, but you should really ask, how was Barnes used at Florida State. With bigs imo, you have to project.

With Kai Jones, it's pretty much the same thing. I care more about physical tools than numbers. I look at his physical tools, I ask where can he be in 2 years if a team coaches him up well and he accepts the role of being a big man. Why would Jones be a 3 and D wing? If Jones is a 3 and D wing, he's not an NBA player. His usefulness is as a big man, who can switch 1-5. If he doesn't want to do that, then I don't draft him.

At the end of the day, I'm looking for players that have the potential and the ability to develop into a small ball 5. They may not have played that role in college, but that's the role for them in the NBA. Against, elite centers like Jokic and Embiid, we would probably need a legit 5. But against everyone else, we need big men that can easily switch onto smaller players and not be a liability.

[prime1time]

I’m the opposite, Ruz. Kai Jones lacks feel for the game required to become a star. He does one thing well right now at 20 years old: make 3s. Struggles defensively, doesn’t rebound, not a playmaker or ball handler.

I see his ceiling as a 3&D wing.

At 19, Barnes is already a secondary ball handler and playmaker with 1-5 defensive versatility. It’s not hard to see him posting triple doubles in the NBA. I’ve posted his improved shooting numbers as the season has progressed.(has missed 2 FTs in his last 9 games) Everything is trending up. (Almost up to 56% TS) He has outstanding feel for the game. If the 3pt shooting comes, he’s a 15-6-6-2 guy with multi-position defensive versatility.

Excited to watch him against Michigan. I see his ceiling as a more athletic Kyle Anderson. Built like Giannis. Plus on both ends of the court.

I don't think anyone is looking at Kai Jones and sees a star. In fact that's very unlikely. His utility is to put on muscle, bang inside and basically develop into a more defensive-minded Christian Wood.

Watch on YouTube

If you're drafting Jones to be a 3 and D, then I'm not drafting him at all. In fact if I'm drafting Barnes to be a 3 and D, I'm likely drafting someone else also. There are better 3 and D candidates. Neither Jones or Barnes has a good 3-point shot. They could develop one, but I think that's unlikely. The value that both players produce is their ability to potentially guard 5's, while being able to seamlessly switch 1-5. Barnes brings a little added value due to his passing, and potentially using him as a passer in the high post but for me it comes down to his ability to play defense inside.

At the end fo the day, NBA offenses are simply too good to not have great athletes. If you expect to have any chance of slowing down the offenses of today, you need to have a big man that can switch 1-5 and protect the rim. Do I know if both of these guys can do that? No. But if you look at their physical profile, they definitely have the ability to. If the Wizards are looking for 3 and D, it makes much more sense to draft Wagner. At least Wagner projects as a legit 3-point shooter.

[Ruzious]

I’m the opposite, Ruz. Kai Jones lacks feel for the game required to become a star. He does one thing well right now at 20 years old: make 3s. Struggles defensively, doesn’t rebound, not a playmaker or ball handler.

I see his ceiling as a 3&D wing.

At 19, Barnes is already a secondary ball handler and playmaker with 1-5 defensive versatility. It’s not hard to see him posting triple doubles in the NBA. I’ve posted his improved shooting numbers as the season has progressed.(has missed 2 FTs in his last 9 games) Everything is trending up. (Almost up to 56% TS) He has outstanding feel for the game. If the 3pt shooting comes, he’s a 15-6-6-2 guy with multi-position defensive versatility.

Excited to watch him against Michigan. I see his ceiling as a more athletic Kyle Anderson. Plus on both ends of the court.

I don't disagree about Barnes' skills, and I made the comp to Kyle Anderson early in the season - but the thing is - Jones is at least twice the athlete that Barnes is. Barnes is just barely a better athlete than Anderson, and it took Anderson 7 seasons to be worth anything - this is his 1st year averaging over 8 points a game, and he did show 3 point ability at UCLA. We don't know if Barnes will ever be a 3 point shooter - he hasn't shown any signs of it - not just shooting under 30%, but he's made only 3 in his last 13 games. Like I said, he'll probably be a decent player, but the big upside just isn't there, imo. It's not just the lack of a shot; it's the lack of physical explosiveness. He's a technician who has to do everything right to succeed - while a guy like Jones has a much bigger margin of error, imo. Barnes has the higher floor; Jones has the higher ceiling.

[prime1time]

Couple questions here:

1. Bam Adebayo averaged 10.6 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per 40 in college. Barnes is averaging 6.7 rebounds and 0.7 blocks in college. What is the comparison? People are way off with the Draymond Green type comparisons for Barnes, He’s a big guard/ball handling wing, not a big. Much closer to PG than C.

2. Same question about Kai Jones, he averages 8.5 rebounds and 1.6 blocks per 40(as a sophomore). How can you possibly project him as a NBA big? He’s more of 3&D wing that averages more than twice as many turnovers than assists.

Also, it continues to blow my mind that mocks have Keon Johnson anywhere near the lottery, let alone 6th overall!!! Why would you draft him???

I like that prime1time is trying to pick who he likes at 6 and 7, since the top 5 are fairly non-controversial. But I gotta agree with NatP4 here. Barnes is a really bad rebounder given his measurables. It's an issue I pointed out a few pages back. And I'm also not really buying his assist rate. He is getting those assists because he has been thrust into the primary ball handler role, not because he's a particularly good passer. All I really see out of Barnes is a versatile defensive wing, but one who isn't much of a shooter. He is more like James Johnson than Bam Adebayo. Maybe Barnes will figure out the shooting part, but I wouldn't gamble a #6 or #7 pick to find out.

Kai Jones doesn't look big enough to play center. I do think he can at least fill a prototypical role in the NBA as a defensive-minded PF who can switch 1 through 5 and maybe knock down a few catch-and-shoot 3's. But he doesn't jump out to me as a freakishly good defender or rebounder, good enough to offset his lackluster offensive ability. I don't see room for him on our roster with Hachimura, Avdija and Bertans playing the same position.

I'm not a Barnes guy. The combo of him not being a good shooter and not being a great athlete just doesn't do it for me for a top 10 pick. No doubt, he'll be a useful player that makes smart plays, but he has no star potential.

I like Kai Jones better, but he needs an outstanding coach and system - because he gets lost out there without any direction. Watch San Antonio get him and make him into a star - though it'll take a while for him to put it all together. Btw, I think Jericho Simms of that Texas team is going to make an NBA team as a backup center.

What does it mean that Scottie Barnes is not a great athlete? He's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, and routinely locks down small guards. He has shown exceptional quickness. Does Barnes have an explosive first step? No. But to say he's not a good athlete is just not accurate. I remember before drafting Rui I was told that he was not a good athlete. Now I see him routinely guarding smaller guards. Barnes is bigger, longer and quicker than Rui.

As far as not using a #6 or #7 pick, the reality is that this is a 5 player draft. After the #5, there's a big slosh in the middle. If you can make an argument for a player being far and away better than everyone else in that second part of the top 10 fine. But if not, the best approach is to imo is to draft for need. I would point out that Oneyka Okongwu is reported as being between 6'8 to 6'9 in height and 7'1 to 7'3 in wingspan. Okongwu is at 245 pounds and Barnes is listed at 227 but the reality is that Barnes has the physical makeup to potentially be that small ball 5. The more I read about Barnes and the more I video I watch the more impressed I find myself become. They had him play pg in college. Not just some of the time, but all the time. He was the starting pg. A good comp for what I see in Barnes is a Draymond Green type. Green is 6'6 with a 7'1 wingspan.

Barnes has a long way to go, but if coached up properly, he can develop into an absolute lethal force. Switching 1-5, here and there initiating the offense, passing out of both the high and the low post contesting shots at the rim and rebounding. Barnes is literally a ball of clay. The modern NBA is built for players like Barnes to terrorize. If his jumper becomes more consistent, then that's just icing on the cake.

[Ruzious]

I like that prime1time is trying to pick who he likes at 6 and 7, since the top 5 are fairly non-controversial. But I gotta agree with NatP4 here. Barnes is a really bad rebounder given his measurables. It's an issue I pointed out a few pages back. And I'm also not really buying his assist rate. He is getting those assists because he has been thrust into the primary ball handler role, not because he's a particularly good passer. All I really see out of Barnes is a versatile defensive wing, but one who isn't much of a shooter. He is more like James Johnson than Bam Adebayo. Maybe Barnes will figure out the shooting part, but I wouldn't gamble a #6 or #7 pick to find out.

Kai Jones doesn't look big enough to play center. I do think he can at least fill a prototypical role in the NBA as a defensive-minded PF who can switch 1 through 5 and maybe knock down a few catch-and-shoot 3's. But he doesn't jump out to me as a freakishly good defender or rebounder, good enough to offset his lackluster offensive ability. I don't see room for him on our roster with Hachimura, Avdija and Bertans playing the same position.

I'm not a Barnes guy. The combo of him not being a good shooter and not being a great athlete just doesn't do it for me for a top 10 pick. No doubt, he'll be a useful player that makes smart plays, but he has no star potential.

I like Kai Jones better, but he needs an outstanding coach and system - because he gets lost out there without any direction. Watch San Antonio get him and make him into a star - though it'll take a while for him to put it all together. Btw, I think Jericho Simms of that Texas team is going to make an NBA team as a backup center.

What does it mean that Scottie Barnes is not a great athlete? He's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, and routinely locks down small guards. He has shown exceptional quickness. Does Barnes have an explosive first step? No. But to say he's not a good athlete is just not accurate. I remember before drafting Rui I was told that he was not a good athlete. Now I see him routinely guarding smaller guards. Barnes is bigger, longer and quicker than Rui.

As far as not using a #6 or #7 pick, the reality is that this is a 5 player draft. After the #5, there's a big slosh in the middle. If you can make an argument for a player being far and away better than everyone else in that second part of the top 10 fine. But if not, the best approach is to imo is to draft for need. I would point out that Oneyka Okongwu is reported as being between 6'8 to 6'9 in height and 7'1 to 7'3 in wingspan. Okongwu is at 245 pounds and Barnes is listed at 227 but the reality is that Barnes has the physical makeup to potentially be that small ball 5. The more I read about Barnes and the more I video I watch the more impressed I find myself become. They had him play pg in college. Not just some of the time, but all the time. He was the starting pg. A good comp for what I see in Barnes is a Draymond Green type. Green is 6'6 with a 7'1 wingspan.

Barnes has a long way to go, but if coached up properly, he can develop into an absolute lethal force. Switching 1-5, here and there initiating the offense, passing out of both the high and the low post contesting shots at the rim and rebounding. Barnes is literally a ball of clay. The modern NBA is built for players like Barnes to terrorize. If his jumper becomes more consistent, then that's just icing on the cake.

I hate posts that start like that. "What does it mean that blablabla isn't a great athlete". Whadya think it means? It's obviously my opinion, and I think it's a valid opinion from watching him play. That's fine if you disagree, but don't word it like that. And wingspan's got nothing to do with athleticism, btw. I didn't read the rest of the post, because that's such an irritating way to start out. Lol, hopefully that helps in the future.

[prime1time]

I'm not a Barnes guy. The combo of him not being a good shooter and not being a great athlete just doesn't do it for me for a top 10 pick. No doubt, he'll be a useful player that makes smart plays, but he has no star potential.

I like Kai Jones better, but he needs an outstanding coach and system - because he gets lost out there without any direction. Watch San Antonio get him and make him into a star - though it'll take a while for him to put it all together. Btw, I think Jericho Simms of that Texas team is going to make an NBA team as a backup center.

What does it mean that Scottie Barnes is not a great athlete? He's 6'9 with a 7'3 wingspan, and routinely locks down small guards. He has shown exceptional quickness. Does Barnes have an explosive first step? No. But to say he's not a good athlete is just not accurate. I remember before drafting Rui I was told that he was not a good athlete. Now I see him routinely guarding smaller guards. Barnes is bigger, longer and quicker than Rui.

As far as not using a #6 or #7 pick, the reality is that this is a 5 player draft. After the #5, there's a big slosh in the middle. If you can make an argument for a player being far and away better than everyone else in that second part of the top 10 fine. But if not, the best approach is to imo is to draft for need. I would point out that Oneyka Okongwu is reported as being between 6'8 to 6'9 in height and 7'1 to 7'3 in wingspan. Okongwu is at 245 pounds and Barnes is listed at 227 but the reality is that Barnes has the physical makeup to potentially be that small ball 5. The more I read about Barnes and the more I video I watch the more impressed I find myself become. They had him play pg in college. Not just some of the time, but all the time. He was the starting pg. A good comp for what I see in Barnes is a Draymond Green type. Green is 6'6 with a 7'1 wingspan.

Barnes has a long way to go, but if coached up properly, he can develop into an absolute lethal force. Switching 1-5, here and there initiating the offense, passing out of both the high and the low post contesting shots at the rim and rebounding. Barnes is literally a ball of clay. The modern NBA is built for players like Barnes to terrorize. If his jumper becomes more consistent, then that's just icing on the cake.

I hate posts that start like that. "What does it mean that blablabla isn't a great athlete". Whadya think it means? It's obviously my opinion, and I think it's a valid opinion from watching him play. That's fine if you disagree, but don't word it like that. And wingspan's got nothing to do with athleticism, btw. I didn't read the rest of the post, because that's such an irritating way to start out. Lol, hopefully that helps in the future.

You shouldn't hate it because it's a completely valid question. For the record, I think Barnes will be one of the best athletes in the draft and will be one of the best athletes in the NBA. When I read that someone thinks he isn't a great athlete, I'm going to ask the question. If we drafted Barnes he'd be the best athlete on the roster. And other than the handful of players that are heads and shoulders above everyone, Barnes would be right next to everyone in the second tier. 6'9 7'3 wingspan, lateral quickness, muscular build. Another comp for Scottie Barnes is Ben Simmons. Simmons is taller but only has a 7'0 wingspan. Is he Zion or prime LeBron? No. But don't act like 6'9 guys with 7'3 wingspans that have the lateral quickness to easily guard guards grow on trees. I would put Barnes in the Ben Simmons category of athletes.

[Ruzious]

[*]And... on to the ignore list prime1time goes.

[Ruzious]

Gotta like the way this Australian plays. He's got an effortless style and a great feel for passing - and just 18. A 6'8 PG.

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