Wiz trade 5th pick to Minnesota

[nate33]

I don't think being "aggressive" is going to change the fact that he can't guard 2's or 1's. Did you see how Redd absolutely roasted him in the first half?

[MF23]

Yes I saw that. I'ts Redd burning Foye and it's not like that wouldn't happen to a lot of players in the NBA. I believe Foye will play better on both sides of the court later on this season.

[MJG]

I believe Foye will play better on both sides of the court later on this season.

Why?

I'm not asking to be an ass or anything. I'm really wondering why you think that. Just as Dat's pointed out, Foye has been just about the exact same player every season since he entered the league, with only his minutes fluctuating. I cannot think of a single reason why anyone would expect him to notably improve all of a sudden.

[fishercob]

Fisher in his prime played very good D. He wasn't especially quick, but he was smart, strong, and worked hard.

Frankly, the work that Fisher put in to become a solid defensive spot-up shooting PG in his prime 7-8 years ago is the reason why he's still kicking around in the NBA today.

I appreciate the props, key.

There was some discussion of Boykins in the Bucks game thread. My thought on the matter is that Earl's production both behind and next to Gil underscores how vestigial the Foye acquisition was. Ernie would have been much better off taking back #18 and signing Boyk (and holding on to some marketable filler of possible) than taking back Foye.

[MF23]

Foye has improved every year he's been in the league. He shows skills when I watch him play. He's tentative with the guys he's playing with right now. He will catch a ball and sometimes instincts take over and then there are times he's thinking. Being on a new team with 3 allstars asking for a pass his play makes sense. He has a John Stockton, Joe Dumars demeanor to him. That temperament isn't going to mind deferring to allstars because those types are team players. He's not even complaining right now. He knows he can play and with time he's going to prove it.

I'll say it again; Foye is a starter on a championship team. I can see it. I'm confident in that assessment.

[verbal8]

I'll say it again; Foye is a starter on a championship team. I can see it. I'm confident in that assessment.

He could be both a starter on a championship team and not really that great. You could make an argument that he could end up in a role like BJ Armstrong or Derek Fischer on a championship team. However both of those guys had the best scorer in the NBA on their team.
I could see him being successful in Portland playing with Roy as a spot up PG, but I don't think he meshes well with the Wizards. I could also see him having some success in Miami playing with Wade.

[gesa2]

I don't think being "aggressive" is going to change the fact that he can't guard 2's or 1's. Did you see how Redd absolutely roasted him in the first half?

Was it just me that thought the refs were giving EVERY call to Redd in the first half? It seemed like a lot of the plays were good D, and Redd brought the ball across his body through Foye and got the call. He got a one or 2 calls on Caron in the second half that were questionable too.

Not that Foye is a great, or even a good defender, but I can't put Redd's 32 points all on him.

[closg00]

Damn! There were a dozen or so point-guards drafted last year and most appear to be doing pretty well.

[ClubLakers KB8]

Fisher in his prime played very good D. He wasn't especially quick, but he was smart, strong, and worked hard.

I came here to see the status of Foye (I think he could do well in the triangle) and I stumbled upon this gem.

Absolutely false statement. Even in his prime Fisher couldn't fight through window screen. The guy went under everything. He was strong? Yes, but that doesn't make you a good defender.

[Hoopalotta]

The good news is that eventually this thread will get to 100 pages, get locked and no one will have the heart to open the "Wiz traded 5th pick to Minnesota: Part II" thread.

[keynote]

Fisher in his prime played very good D. He wasn't especially quick, but he was smart, strong, and worked hard.

I came here to see the status of Foye (I think he could do well in the triangle) and I stumbled upon this gem.

Absolutely false statement. Even in his prime Fisher couldn't fight through window screen. The guy went under everything. He was strong? Yes, but that doesn't make you a good defender.

We're getting off-topic here, but I disagree. Derek wasn't the quickest guy in his prime, so he may have occasionally been beaten to the spot on a screen and had to go under. But he earned his paycheck during the early '00s by being an effective, physical on-the-ball defender at the point and sticking the open jumper.

Surely, you're not suggesting that Fisher was just a non-defending spot-up shooter - a Steve Kerr, or an Eddie House.

[closg00]

By Chris Sheridan

As I mentioned in today's live chat, the Washington Wizards are not done dealing. And their next priority is moving $2.6 million in salary to get below the luxury tax line.

For practical purposes, that means they are trying to include Mike James and his expiring $6.47 million contract in a package with Antawn Jamison ($11.6 million) and/or Mike Miller ($9.8 million), and they'd do a lopsided trade that favored the other team if it got them under the tax.

How many different ways are there to convict Ernie Grunfeld for impersonating an NBA GM?
Waiting to see if we end-with nothing from our 5th -pick. Stunning!

[verbal8]

By Chris Sheridan

As I mentioned in today's live chat, the Washington Wizards are not done dealing. And their next priority is moving $2.6 million in salary to get below the luxury tax line.

For practical purposes, that means they are trying to include Mike James and his expiring $6.47 million contract in a package with Antawn Jamison ($11.6 million) and/or Mike Miller ($9.8 million), and they'd do a lopsided trade that favored the other team if it got them under the tax.

How many different ways are there to convict Ernie Grunfeld for impersonating an NBA GM?
Waiting to see if we end-with nothing from our 5th -pick. Stunning!

If Mike Miller is the guy sent out, the filler will probably be Mike James. However with Jamison the filler could be almost anyone. To shave off 2.6 million in salary using the 1.25% + 100K rule, the total outgoing salary would have to be 12.6 million. And it actually could even work with a minimum guy if Jamison is traded for someone making 9.8 million or less.

[Dat2U]

Our retread GM strikes again. Man, and I thought the Jamison deal was bad, this one is the worst of his tenure.

#5 pick is better than Mike Miller & Randy Foye COMBINED right now, not even mentioning the productive backup we gave up and the prospect 7 FT'er.

Stephen Curry would have put up 20 ppg on the Wolves last season with better FG%. James Harden couldn't put up the #'s Foye did? Both are legit NBA players, not NBA scrubs like Miller & Foye.

This team is going nowhere even faster than before. :-\

When EG was hired I said he was an average GM and he would turn us to the 2nd coming of the Ray Allen, Glenn Robinson & Sam Cassell led Milwaukee Bucks.

When we traded for Jamison, I said the move screamed of a short term fix and that's we'd never be better than mediocre.

Now this. This is probably his worst trade to date. At least Jamison could put up empty numbers every night and even made an all-star game or two. With Miller & Foye, we get two reserve quality players as one year rentals. For the **** 5th pick in the draft! The same 5th pick that teams were calling left and right for. I'd rather having **** James Harden than this bull.

Man **** this ****!

Posted on 6/23/09. Props goes to Krizko Zero, CCJ, Benjamin, Barelyawake, Nate33 and a few others for getting it right from the get go. Even the ALWAYS positive Doclinkin was "agnostic" about the trade and seemed dissapointed.

For everyone else, this thread is an very ugly read. Also everyone seemed to be anticipating a follow up move by EG that never came.

Also, for some, I'd say stick with your first instinct. Ji, Wizards2Lottery aka G0A, JWizmentality and some others flip flopped after intially panning the deal.

[Wizards2Lottery]

I hated it in the beginning but eventually I liked the depth this trade gave us. But man we just traded a top 5 pick who could have been a staple for this team for the next decade for one year rentals of average players. We set ourselves back a whole lot with this.

At least we will eclipse 19 wins this season! Confetti raining down from the rafters after our 20th win? Wonder who Ernie trades our next lotto pick for?

This team is worse than the Redskins.

[MJG]

I'm not reading through the whole thread, but I do remember thinking that this was the most uninteresting, dull trade we could have made. I figured it'd make us a bit better this year and a bit worse in the long-term. Well, I suppose I was half right.

[AceDegenerate]

Draft Picks are large part of selling the experience of the team to the fans (especially in today's NBA). That's something this franchise has failed to do for many years. With the nondisclosure or posturing through the media and lack of sincere communication with the fans, this franchise just doesn't care.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

I hated it in the beginning but eventually I liked the depth this trade gave us. But man we just traded a top 5 pick who could have been a staple for this team for the next decade for one year rentals of average players. We set ourselves back a whole lot with this.

At least we will eclipse 19 wins this season! Confetti raining down from the rafters after our 20th win? Wonder who Ernie trades our next lotto pick for?

This team is worse than the Redskins.

[Dat2U]

I don't buy the "content with mediocrity" theory, never have, and take offense to it as a fan. You think Pollin, Grunfeld, Tommt Shepherd et al got to where the are being content with mediocrity? These guys are fiercely competitive alpha males. You may able as a sick, frail old man and Ernie as a goofy looking dweeb with a weird voice, but you'd be missing the point. These guys want to win the brass ring and I have no doubt that it keeps them up at night. They're not in this to make a buck. Sports is about ego and winning -- period.

Are they delusional about how good they are? Maybe. But we have no way of really knowing since they haven't been healthy (or deep) enough to see everyone together, and they had a coach who played the wrong guys and couldn't coach D. Now they have a coach regarded as one of the best who consistently churns out good defensive teams.

So Miller and Foye aren't "defensive players" by some of your measure. Well the NBA -- shidt even high school basketball -- is not just about shutting down your man. It's not a series of five one on one matchups. Defense is a team endeavor.

To recap, our D will improve because

a) better offense = more set/readt defense
b) bigger personnel = more forced misses
c) better rebounding = fewer second chance attempts.
d) better coaching = huge

No, we're not going to be the Celtics of two years ago. We don't have that personnel -- and chasing it would have been counterproductive. We're going to be good. The sooner you accept that, the happier you'll be .

Fish, you know I respect you man, but I think you are naive if you think sports is about ego and winning and that's it. The business end is a huge part of professional sports. If it wasn't, then just about every franchise would be exceeding the salary cap.

Now, that doesn't mean that the Wizards brass don't care about winning a championship. I'm sure they do. However, I'm sure the management, from Abe on down, consider the financial ramifications of every deal they make...how much is it going to cost, is it going to put fannies in the seats, will it be a fun type of team to watch (to put fannies in the seats), what is the risk that a move we make will backfire and result in less fannies in the seats, etc. These types of factors could cause the Wizards to refain from swinging for the fence and making a move that might be unpopular or might backfire, but could be the difference maker to make us a contender or play it safe and keep the core together knowing that we will certainly be a perennial playoff caliber team.

Personally, I think the Wizards are either playing it safe or they really believe this team is a contender. Regarding the latter, I personally don't believe we are near being a contender with this team. You don't have to tell me that defense is a team endeavor. I understand that. But again, its naive to think you can play good team defense with so many defensive liabilities on the court together, with just a different coach. Arenas, Butler and Jamison will all be playing signifcant time. All three are defensive liabilities. A good coach can try to hide those liabilities with a different scheme and other defensive players to compensate, but do we really have that?? I'd say that other than Haywood and Dom and Stevenson, we don't have any other player that is above average on defense. You can't hide everyone. I've been playing and coaching basketball long enough to know that you need a good balance of defensive and offensive players to be a good team. The Wizards don't have that and don't appear, based on their moves, to be looking for that. To me, it appears that they want to continue on this "we'll outscore everyone approach." And, until I see a single team in the NBA win a championship with that approach, I'll say that the Wizards are not contenders as currently made up.

I'm also glad you are so positive our D will improve. First of all, while I agree that poor shot selection and poor offense can lead to a lot of transition points for the other team, that was hardly our problem last year. That is one of the comments made by Flip that I didn't like. If he watched our games, he would notice that our biggest problem on D during the last couple of years has been in half-court sets. Players would either drive to the whole unimpeded or drive and kick to a wide open three. Good offense is not going to correct those problems.

Second, how did we get "bigger?" Technically, we traded 3 bigs for a small combo guard and a 6'8' SG. We did not get bigger, we got smaller.

Third, I agree we might get more rebounds from the SG spot, but I doubt that our rebounding will signficantly approve when we will have Blatche and McGee, who have not shown to be good defensive rebounders, playing larger minutes.

Fourth, I think you are putting way to much weight in the coach. Sure, it is possible that Flip's defensive approach might fit well with this team. However, it is equally possible that Flip's defensive approach in Detroit was successul because he had Sheed, Prince, and Billups in the starting line-up, all good defensive players. Moreover, I don't believe that the defensive principles and schemes are that much different from team to team. They all teach pretty much the same principles on pick and rolls, force rules, etc. If EJ and other coaches brought in to teach the Wizards these principles couldn't get it done, what makes you so confident that Flip will.

Finally, I find it hard to believe you would say chasing the Celtics personnel is counterproductive. That is exactly that type of personnel and blueprint the Wizards should be chasing...players that play both ends of the court, willing passers, team players, rebounders, etc...not chasing the types of players that made the Phoenix Suns one of the funnest teams to watch but couldnt play enough D to actually be a contender.

Finally, I'm sure I will be happier this year than last. As I said before, I think we have improved and I'll be rooting for this team like I always do. However, I just feel like at the end of the year, there will be disappointment again. I hope I'm wrong.

Major props goes to Dandridge10 as well. This was a great post.

[closg00]

More from the Sheridan chat if anyone wants to puke some-more.

Mike (Peoria)


Boston could do Ray Allen and 1st for Jamison and Miller. Bucks seem to be somewhat involved in trade talks, any chance they end up with an improvement using only their expiring contracts?

Chris Sheridan (3:32 PM)


Allen's expiring deal and a No. 1 is not enough for Jamison and Miller. But if Boston also took back Mike James and gave up Glen Davis, that would re-load the Celts and get the Wizards under the tax line. By he way, it has been understated how much Miller is in play as a guy the Wizards would take back little in return for if it got them under the tax line of $69.9 million.