Nick Young traded to Clippers/McGee to Denver/Nene to DC

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The level of optimism people have about McGee's future is stunning.

I think it's a product of this "bigs develop slower" crap except it's mostly not true - have you ever seen a star big, or even a starting quality big, who looked like a bench player through 4 full seasons?

People want to make the Chandler comparison, but you wanna know what Chandler was in year TWO, let alone year FOUR? An elite rebounding and defensive big man who was a key cog on one of the better defensive teams in the NBA at the time.

You wanna know what Javale McGee is NOW in year FOUR? A mediocre offensive and terrible defensive big man who gets an above-average amount of rebounds and an insane amount of blocks that do nothing to help team defense, while making four or five boneheaded plays every game. And you think going to Denver is gonna fix all this?

This isn't trading C-Webb or Sheed or Ben. All of those guys were twice the player McGee is now. And don't forget that he was an outright team cancer, just as much as Blatche was.

This is more like trading Kwame Brown.

I would have rather let McGee walk and save the cap space, but I think there's an argument that we needed to get rid of McGee IMMEDIATELY, and it's clear that Wall in particular wanted him gone.

FYI Tyson Chandler was in his 5th year in 2005-2006

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... dty01.html
That year he averaged 7.1 points, 12.1 rebound, 1.8 blocks per 36 minutes
In the playoffs, he averaged 1.8 points, 4.5 rebounds, 0.3 blocks.

--McGee an outright team cancer? Name one thing this player did to justify that remark. If you want to talk WTFs just look at Crawford's shot selection and at John Wall's decision making late in games this week.

--This is more like trading Kwame Brown? Caron wasn't making $13M. Caron came to a team that was a +40-win team that was poised to win in the playoffs.

--Wall wanting him gone as if that should forge a bad trade at the deadline ... an immediate move.

No, this team has a bad GM and an interim coach. Nothing should have been forced.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Jonathan Givony ‏ @DraftExpress Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
McGee in the 3rd doing what Asik did to Denver in the 2nd. Completely shutting down the paint. Tough to shoot over that 9-7 standing reach.

McGee still plays terrible defense!

7DD, thanks for posting this. I also read the game thread on Chicago's board. McGee frustrated Boozer and Noah that game.

McGee is an up-and-down player, but he's a better rebounder and shot blocker than any Wizard. I will forever mention that an interim coach (who didn't play certain combinations at all) didn't like McGee and a bad GM is the one who traded him.

I think he will be solid the rest of his career and this was an awful trade.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Since Pete Vecsey's wisdom is so higly valued here.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_spo ... oqLGW99N/1

Nope, this isn't what they want to hear.

[DCZards]

I have no problem with what Vecsey wrote. He said Nene wasn't a leader in Denver.
Who knows? That might change here.

In fact, this is how Vecsey ends his column:
"Obviously, when a trade is made, both teams know one or more things about the player they dealt that sincerely turns them off. Both teams will try to rejuvenate and/or rehabilitate their acquisitions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t."

[DCZards]

I think he will be solid the rest of his career and this was an awful trade.

I wouldn't be surprised if McGee goes on to have a very solid career. I sincerely hope he does. He seems like a good kid. I also fully expect McGee to avg. more blocks and rebounds than Nene over the next few years. But I don't think the Zards made the trade based on which player they thought would have the best stats. I think the trade was made because EG & Co. felt, rightfully or wrongfully, that Nene would make the Zards a better TEAM. I happen to think they are probably right in the long run.

[Silvie Lysandra]

That is untrue no matter how many times you keep repeating it. Higher PER = / = better, unless you want to argue that McGee is better than 24 year old Ben Wallace, 23 year old Jermaine O'Neal, or 24 year old Rasheed Wallace, or any number of centers that don't put up the gaudy PER stats that McGee does but contribute to actual quality team play.

No need to pull up what I posted, since you refute it.

McGee's higher PER, higher points, higher blocks, equivalent rebounds, and the fact that Tyson Chandler made $9M to end his season, mostly riding Scott Skiles' bench in the 2005-2006 playoffs, before he was traded to New Orleans is how I based my opinion.

Higher points is irrelevant because they're both 5th options, being a 5th offensive option with a decent hook shot isn't better than being a 5th offensive option who scores on putbacks.

Blocks is an extremely empty stat - if a guy is a bad defensive center, does it matter how many blocks he gets?

McGee gets 18% of available rebounds on the #19 rebounding team in the NBA, Chandler got 19% of available rebounds on the 3rd best rebounding team in the NBA.

Tyson Chandler got 28, 22, 11, 5, and 18 MPG in a relatively deep big man lineup, having to go against the best C in the NBA (Shaq) who he gave up about 100 pounds to. Maybe that's why he was having trouble staying on the court. Are you really going to knock him for not being able to defend Shaq straight up?

McGee an outright team cancer? Name one thing this player did to justify that remark. I

Fighting in the club? The refusal to work on his game beyond an inconsistent hook shot? "Pierre"? The triple double stunt? But no, none of that is a big deal, it's too much to ask that a professional basketball player be...professional! It's not like he was Gilbert Arenas who was a top 5 player before he got hurt/gungate.

And now the McGee homers are making excuses for him again, just like they made excuses for JC, just like they made excuses for Dray, just like they made excuses for every other scrub who comes in, shows a flash of talent, then regresses to the baseline scrub.

This is more like trading Kwame Brown? Caron wasn't making $13M. Caron came to a team that was a +40-win team that was poised to win in the playoffs.

McGee is closer to Kwame Brown than he is to Ben, Webb or Sheed. That's why I made the comparison. People made excuses for Kwame as well (MJ ruined him, etc). For some reason, this fanbase loves to latch on to mediocre players despite them not having won a thing for them, believing that if they just wish and hope enough, they'll turn into things they're not.

It's getting so ridiculous that people are comparing McGee's idiotic and boneheaded errors to Wall playing a bit of hero ball at the end of games.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have no problem with what Vecsey wrote. He said Nene wasn't a leader in Denver.
Who knows? That might change here.

In fact, this is how Vecsey ends his column:
"Obviously, when a trade is made, both teams know one or more things about the player they dealt that sincerely turns them off. Both teams will try to rejuvenate and/or rehabilitate their acquisitions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t."

DCZ, I agree.

This team provides him with a fresh opportunity to be the leader. Nene is in a new city that will embrace him, an international city at that. I believe Nene will find more common ground with Kevin Seraphin than with Kenyon Martin. One reason Nene might not have bonded with others is that Gallinari, Mozgov, etc. , came in a trade that sent away players Hilario won a lot of games with and played with a lot of years with.

I don't worry about Nene's getting along with his teammates. Not for at least this season and next up to the break. I do worry he will miss a lot of games. He took longer to get to DC than the "knuckleheads" took to report to their teams, and Nene has already missed one game hurt. That part is the problem.

[DCZards]

He took longer to get to DC than the "knuckleheads" took to report to their teams, and Nene has already missed one game hurt. That part is the problem.

Nene's health is a legitimate concern. I can't take issue with that. But I am not nearly as concerned about his salary or the length of his contract as some on this board. I think the stability at the C position is actually a good thing.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that Nene took longer to report than Nick and Javale.

FWIW, I agree with you that it is over the top to call McGee a "cancer," regardless of what he did or did not do as a Zard. Cancer is far too strong a word for his play and/or attitude as a Zard.

[closg00]

Isn't it ironic that Nene is getting paired with Seraphin, we never got an extended look of Seraphin paired with McGee.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Isn't it ironic that Nene is getting paired with Seraphin, we never got an extended look of Seraphin paired with McGee.

Sometimes teams stockpile young players and trade them away before they get good.

Check out the roster of the 1995-1996 Wizards:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1996.html

Centers: Muresan (2 years experience), McIlvaine (1)
Power forwards: Webber (2), Howard (1)
Who did they draft? Rasheed Wallace (R)

And the coaches quickly found fault with the maturity level and Rasheed and traded him. There were plenty other 2nd year pros on the Wizards as well. (Cheaney, Whitney, Mitchell Butler)

Following that season, the Wizards traded Rasheed with Mitchell Butler for Rod Strickland and Harvey Grant (PF)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/WSB/1997.html
Who did they turn around and draft? Ben Wallace
But what else did the Wizards do that made NO SENSE? They acquired Lorenzo Williams. I will never forget his 7-year deal. $1M a year (which seemed much back then) to be injured every season, which Lo Williams was. I guess they got hiim because McIlvaine left in free agency, don't recall.
What else did the Wizards do? They signed Ashraf Amaya, a pretty good PF who played more than Ben Wallace.

And the next season, instead of developing Ben Wallace, the Wizards brought in 30-year old Terry Davis.

Before too long, the Wizards had traded away the best two big men, Webber and Wallace, and they kept Howard and others. Soon Howard was playing less under Gar Heard behind PFs like Michael Animal Smith and Gerald King.

My point is the Nene deal reminds me of moves made about 15 years ago.

Nobody gave Seraphin and McGee a shot the same way nobody tried Ben Wallace at C with Webber. Making Booker a feature guy reminds me of preferring Howard. Howard was good, but not a great player. Booker is far from a great player.

Fans hating McGee are IMO missing the point that the player is useful and good, despite all the mistakes. He is just young, still.

[tontoz]

McGee is old enough to understand basic defensive concepts. He is old enough to know not to let someone drive just so he can send a goaltend spike into the stands. He is old enough to know which team actually has the ball.

If Nick hadn't been traded with him those 2 point losses would probably have been wins. The defense has been better by a mile without McGee's constant mental lapses.

[dobrojim]

Ben Wallace wasn't drafted, he was a undrafted FA IIRC.

when the Bullets traded Sheed, they basically had no PGs on
the roster. They needed a PG and Strickland, when not
vomiting due to too many pre-game hot dogs, was a quality
PG even if his outside and FT shooting wasn't that good.

McGee was not a winning player however great his
physical talents and stats may be. Yes he is STILL young.
But he has also showed little improvement in the areas
he is weakest in.

Zo Williams had had a couple solid seasons at DAL. If he
had simply played at the same level as he had been, it
would have been fine. McIlvaine had gotten a huge contract (SEA?)
and proceeded to be injured frequently after that. I think
SEA fans were probably about as happy with him as we
were with Zo Williams.

I think your issue with the trade is that is DOES remind you
too much of things that didn't work out well in the past. And
maybe to your credit you have more patience than the rest
of us. I feel like they waited long enough to see if McGee
would ever 'get it'. And I had no big issues with 'the dunk off
the backboard'. It was about the failure to play good team
defense and being consistently abused by BOTH top tier and
lower tier Cs, the whole highlights over Ws thing. I think JM
really believes he is a whole bunch better than he actually is.
And that belief will not lead him to become the player he is
physically capable of being.

[montestewart]

Isn't it ironic that Nene is getting paired with Seraphin, we never got an extended look of Seraphin paired with McGee.

Not so much. Maybe they should have tried more of McGee and Seraphin together, but they're both centers. Nene is a center/power forward, and has been throughout his career, so he's played next to center a lot.

[Dat2U]

Isn't it ironic that Nene is getting paired with Seraphin, we never got an extended look of Seraphin paired with McGee.

Not so much. Maybe they should have tried more of McGee and Seraphin together, but they're both centers. Nene is a center/power forward, and has been throughout his career, so he's played next to center a lot.

Agreed. Nene has more offensive skill than McGee. He can consistently hit the 15 footer and he makes infinitely better decisions with the ball in his hands.

[Dat2U]

\
McGee is closer to Kwame Brown than he is to Ben, Webb or Sheed. That's why I made the comparison. People made excuses for Kwame as well (MJ ruined him, etc). For some reason, this fanbase loves to latch on to mediocre players despite them not having won a thing for them, believing that if they just wish and hope enough, they'll turn into things they're not.

Except Kwame's production never came close to approaching what McGee has already done. McGee's worst season -> Kwame's best season.

And your right about one comment: "this fanbase loves to latch on to mediocrity"

With one small correction.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I think your issue with the trade is that is DOES remind you
too much of things that didn't work out well in the past. And
maybe to your credit you have more patience than the rest
of us. I feel like they waited long enough to see if McGee
would ever 'get it'. And I had no big issues with 'the dunk off
the backboard'. It was about the failure to play good team
defense and being consistently abused by BOTH top tier and
lower tier Cs, the whole highlights over Ws thing. I think JM
really believes he is a whole bunch better than he actually is.
And that belief will not lead him to become the player he is
physically capable of being.

The Wizards did not wait to name a permanent coach and they let a failure of a GM make this move. They made a move ignoring major roster concerns and did not move either of the two albatross contracts, Blatche or Lewis. Instead, Grunfeld grabbed what I believe will be diminishing returns on a player who habitually misses games.

If the Wizards had done due diligence IMO they would have seen the guards on this team jack shots, don't feed the post, and the interim coach favors a perimeter-oriented offense. I truly believe a guy like Laimbeer would have instantly conceived of trying Seraphin at C/PF with McGee at PF/C. He played with John Salley and Rick Mahorn. I am not saying I wanted Laimbeer as coach, just that I think it was ludicrous to make this move with Wittman at the helm. He never tries certain lineups. If I had seen the combo and permanent head coach make the call to jettison McGee, I would have been fine.

What I saw was a deadline deal, that now we know wasn't the original deal they pursued. i don't like the way it went down and I truly believe it was a bad deal.

[jivelikenice]

CCJ, I disagree based on the idea that a gm, Ernie or other, couldn't responsibly invest a long-term contract into Javale McGee. Now could the coaches have tried different combinations before it got to that point? Sure, but considering where they were you could not responsibly re-sign Javale. Theoretically the moment McGee signed a multi-year extension, he'd be untradeable and considered an "albatross" contract. I also think you're harping too much on the importance of getting rid of Dray and Rashard's contract. I don't know for sure, buy my guess is the decision has been made to buy out Rashard and amnesty Dray if they can't trade him on draft day or before they get a FA to commit.

[7-Day Dray]

\
McGee is closer to Kwame Brown than he is to Ben, Webb or Sheed. That's why I made the comparison. People made excuses for Kwame as well (MJ ruined him, etc). For some reason, this fanbase loves to latch on to mediocre players despite them not having won a thing for them, believing that if they just wish and hope enough, they'll turn into things they're not.

Except Kwame's production never came close to approaching what McGee has already done. McGee's worst season -> Kwame's best season.

And your right about one comment: "this fanbase loves to latch on to mediocrity"

With one small correction.

+1 Don't compare McGee to Kwame. So many people wouldn't have disliked the trade (including me) if McGee was as bad as Kwame.

[nate33]

I think your issue with the trade is that is DOES remind you
too much of things that didn't work out well in the past. And
maybe to your credit you have more patience than the rest
of us. I feel like they waited long enough to see if McGee
would ever 'get it'. And I had no big issues with 'the dunk off
the backboard'. It was about the failure to play good team
defense and being consistently abused by BOTH top tier and
lower tier Cs, the whole highlights over Ws thing. I think JM
really believes he is a whole bunch better than he actually is.
And that belief will not lead him to become the player he is
physically capable of being.

This.

It's not really an issue of patience for me. I agree that McGee can be very effective in spurts and I expect that he'll continue to improve incrementally over time. My issue is the contract. I was perfectly willing to live with McGee's mistakes and inconsistencies when he was paid $2M a year. It'll a COMPLETELY different story when he is getting paid $10-12M a year. At that price, why put up with the headaches? We're much better off with Nene who costs just barely more and is a much better, and much more consistent player.

[hands11]

He took longer to get to DC than the "knuckleheads" took to report to their teams, and Nene has already missed one game hurt. That part is the problem.

Nene's health is a legitimate concern. I can't take issue with that. But I am not nearly as concerned about his salary or the length of his contract as some on this board. I think the stability at the C position is actually a good thing.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that Nene took longer to report than Nick and Javale.

FWIW, I agree with you that it is over the top to call McGee a "cancer," regardless of what he did or did not do as a Zard. Cancer is far too strong a word for his play and/or attitude as a Zard.

What you call it doesnt really matter. What is boils down to is, is he good for the team or not. Players that are not, some call a cancer. Its just a general label.

I saw the question posed, "should the Wiz resign McGee this offseason if they could". Ya know, given they dont get Davis.

And it got me thinking. I was a McGee fan for a long time. He was one of two players I wanted to draft that year. I praised his upside potential. That doesn't mean I didnt crack on him sometimes or get frustrated but I see that he had gotten better on the court and work on his body in the off season. And I still think he has freakish upside. But now that he is gone, I'm not sure I would want to add him back. No doubt he is talented. I just don't want his personality, stupid or his mother anywhere near this team. Maybe in a few more years he will be a different person, but it isnt going to happen here and I really dont want it back.

Nene is like a breath of fresh air compared to McGee or Nick for that matter. The team finally feel like it is pulling in the same direction.

Personality and mental make up are skills to many over look when looking to build a winning team. McGee is not a starter on a young team. You might be able to play him like that on a team that is a more established winner, etc. Basically, you might be able to plug him in, but this team is not established enough to have him here. McGee and Nick need play pens and training wheels. This team doesn't have that so they will always try to pull groceries off the shelf or run down the street without their diapers on.