Official Trade Thread - Part XXX

[gambitx777]

SO, if the cavs want Dudley, I say we ask for two first round picks and Cedi Osman. I dont care if its fair, supply and demand!

I think the Cavs' first round picks are encumbered for a long time.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

The cavs don't owe a first after this year, if their pick does not fall in the top 10 this year.
I say we ask for 2018, 2020 and and Cedi Osman.

[dalton749]

SO, if the cavs want Dudley, I say we ask for two first round picks and Cedi Osman. I dont care if its fair, supply and demand!

I think the Cavs' first round picks are encumbered for a long time.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

The cavs don't owe a first after this year, if their pick does not fall in the top 10 this year.
I say we ask for 2018, 2020 and and Cedi Osman.

Not sure what you guys are thinking with the current outlook of the team, but how does something like this look.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jzu56sb
You'd get back a second, Phoenix gets torontos first. Does that hamper your kd hopes, does it fit future plans? A solid defensive stretch 4 to go with wall, and a future center prospect that would be a great pnr partner, is a solid passer and was a dpoy in the Spanish acb league. Just needs to improve his defensive rebounding. Thoughts?

[nate33]

I think the Cavs' first round picks are encumbered for a long time.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

The cavs don't owe a first after this year, if their pick does not fall in the top 10 this year.
I say we ask for 2018, 2020 and and Cedi Osman.

Not sure what you guys are thinking with the current outlook of the team, but how does something like this look.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jzu56sb
You'd get back a second, Phoenix gets torontos first. Does that hamper your kd hopes, does it fit future plans? A solid defensive stretch 4 to go with wall, and a future center prospect that would be a great pnr partner, is a solid passer and was a dpoy in the Spanish acb league. Just needs to improve his defensive rebounding. Thoughts?

It's not awful, but it's not great either. Swapping Dudley for Patterson is a definite downgrade, but at least it gives us a warm body to trot out at PF next year. He's cheap enough to fit under the cap while still leaving max cap room for Durant.

I'd shop around for a better offer first. Patterson just isn't a starting caliber player. I'd rather explore trade options for Markieff Morris, Terrence Jones or Motiejunas. I'd also look at younger guys with more upside like Jon Leuer before circling back to Patterson.

[dalton749]

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

The cavs don't owe a first after this year, if their pick does not fall in the top 10 this year.
I say we ask for 2018, 2020 and and Cedi Osman.

Not sure what you guys are thinking with the current outlook of the team, but how does something like this look.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jzu56sb
You'd get back a second, Phoenix gets torontos first. Does that hamper your kd hopes, does it fit future plans? A solid defensive stretch 4 to go with wall, and a future center prospect that would be a great pnr partner, is a solid passer and was a dpoy in the Spanish acb league. Just needs to improve his defensive rebounding. Thoughts?

It's not awful, but it's not great either. Swapping Dudley for Patterson is a definite downgrade, but at least it gives us a warm body to trot out at PF next year. He's cheap enough to fit under the cap while still leaving max cap room for Durant.

I'd shop around for a better offer first. Patterson just isn't a starting caliber player. I'd rather explore trade options for Markieff Morris, Terrence Jones or Motiejunas. I'd also look at younger guys with more upside like Jon Leuer before circling back to Patterson.

Fair enough. One things I will say though is even though Patterson hasn't been a starter, he's been a closer for the past 2 years, and a big part of the best lineups Toronto puts out, which I think is more important than getting the start. He's a low usage guy, who keeps the ball moving and teams have to run of the line, From an outside perspective I think he'd play pretty well off the guys you've got. Despite his numbers I find it really to give him up as a raps fan.

[gambitx777]

Not sure what you guys are thinking with the current outlook of the team, but how does something like this look.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jzu56sb
You'd get back a second, Phoenix gets torontos first. Does that hamper your kd hopes, does it fit future plans? A solid defensive stretch 4 to go with wall, and a future center prospect that would be a great pnr partner, is a solid passer and was a dpoy in the Spanish acb league. Just needs to improve his defensive rebounding. Thoughts?

It's not awful, but it's not great either. Swapping Dudley for Patterson is a definite downgrade, but at least it gives us a warm body to trot out at PF next year. He's cheap enough to fit under the cap while still leaving max cap room for Durant.

I'd shop around for a better offer first. Patterson just isn't a starting caliber player. I'd rather explore trade options for Markieff Morris, Terrence Jones or Motiejunas. I'd also look at younger guys with more upside like Jon Leuer before circling back to Patterson.

Fair enough. One things I will say though is even though Patterson hasn't been a starter, he's been a closer for the past 2 years, and a big part of the best lineups Toronto puts out, which I think is more important than getting the start. He's a low usage guy, who keeps the ball moving and teams have to run of the line, From an outside perspective I think he'd play pretty well off the guys you've got. Despite his numbers I find it really to give him up as a raps fan.

Give the suns the second and make it.
Wiz get: Patterson, Nogueira and Leuer
Suns get: Johnson, wright, Raptors first, and second.
raptors get : Morris Dudley Neal.

[dalton749]

It's not awful, but it's not great either. Swapping Dudley for Patterson is a definite downgrade, but at least it gives us a warm body to trot out at PF next year. He's cheap enough to fit under the cap while still leaving max cap room for Durant.

I'd shop around for a better offer first. Patterson just isn't a starting caliber player. I'd rather explore trade options for Markieff Morris, Terrence Jones or Motiejunas. I'd also look at younger guys with more upside like Jon Leuer before circling back to Patterson.

Fair enough. One things I will say though is even though Patterson hasn't been a starter, he's been a closer for the past 2 years, and a big part of the best lineups Toronto puts out, which I think is more important than getting the start. He's a low usage guy, who keeps the ball moving and teams have to run of the line, From an outside perspective I think he'd play pretty well off the guys you've got. Despite his numbers I find it really to give him up as a raps fan.

Give the suns the second and make it.
Wiz get: Patterson, Nogueira and Leuer
Suns get: Johnson, wright, Raptors first, and second.
raptors get : Morris Dudley Neal.

If it were the only way to get it done, I think I'd pull the trigger, but I think the raps are giving up too much because Dudley and Neal are expiring. At the same time they need to be aggressive and take their shot now.

[gambitx777]

Fair enough. One things I will say though is even though Patterson hasn't been a starter, he's been a closer for the past 2 years, and a big part of the best lineups Toronto puts out, which I think is more important than getting the start. He's a low usage guy, who keeps the ball moving and teams have to run of the line, From an outside perspective I think he'd play pretty well off the guys you've got. Despite his numbers I find it really to give him up as a raps fan.

Give the suns the second and make it.
Wiz get: Patterson, Nogueira and Leuer
Suns get: Johnson, wright, Raptors first, and second.
raptors get : Morris Dudley Neal.

If it were the only way to get it done, I think I'd pull the trigger, but I think the raps are giving up too much because Dudley and Neal are expiring. At the same time they need to be aggressive and take their shot now.

That's the thing, getting Morris, Dudley and Neal, could win you the east! Plus the cavs want Dudley, if you take him away form them that's a win in itself.

On our end it makes a lot of sense, because we get two young-ish cheap 4 men for next year who can rebound and shoot and I really like Nogueira. Behind gortat he could do work, and he is on a cheap deal. Also, this move forces Randy to play Kelly!

[dalton749]

Give the suns the second and make it.
Wiz get: Patterson, Nogueira and Leuer
Suns get: Johnson, wright, Raptors first, and second.
raptors get : Morris Dudley Neal.

If it were the only way to get it done, I think I'd pull the trigger, but I think the raps are giving up too much because Dudley and Neal are expiring. At the same time they need to be aggressive and take their shot now.

That's the thing, getting Morris, Dudley and Neal, could win you the east! Plus the cavs want Dudley, if you take him away form them that's a win in itself.

On our end it makes a lot of sense, because we get two young-ish cheap 4 men for next year who can rebound and shoot and I really like Nogueira. Behind gortat he could do work, and he is on a cheap deal. Also, this move forces Randy to play Kelly!

Yea the more I think about it I really like it. Adding leuer means temple has to go to Phoenix thought.

Raps need some rest time for Lowry, Neal helps there.
Dudley can play the 3 until Carroll is back, then he can be a small ball 4 mostly.
Morris fits into the starting lineup and give us a shot creator in the front court that will be desperately needed come playoffs.
I wonder what Phoenix says though, they probably like leuer which could be a sticking point

[gambitx777]

If it were the only way to get it done, I think I'd pull the trigger, but I think the raps are giving up too much because Dudley and Neal are expiring. At the same time they need to be aggressive and take their shot now.

That's the thing, getting Morris, Dudley and Neal, could win you the east! Plus the cavs want Dudley, if you take him away form them that's a win in itself.

On our end it makes a lot of sense, because we get two young-ish cheap 4 men for next year who can rebound and shoot and I really like Nogueira. Behind gortat he could do work, and he is on a cheap deal. Also, this move forces Randy to play Kelly!

Yea the more I think about it I really like it. Adding leuer means temple has to go to Phoenix thought.

Raps need some rest time for Lowry, Neal helps there.
Dudley can play the 3 until Carroll is back, then he can be a small ball 4 mostly.
Morris fits into the starting lineup and give us a shot creator in the front court that will be desperately needed come playoffs.
I wonder what Phoenix says though, they probably like leuer which could be a sticking point

I would not send them Temple, I would send them gooden because it makes the money more even and gives them a cheap 1 year big to replace morris with. But thaat deal should be more than good for the Suns they get another first, and a second for a guys they can barley move as is, with morrises issues I'm sure they will take that deal and run.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

That's the thing, getting Morris, Dudley and Neal, could win you the east! Plus the cavs want Dudley, if you take him away form them that's a win in itself.

On our end it makes a lot of sense, because we get two young-ish cheap 4 men for next year who can rebound and shoot and I really like Nogueira. Behind gortat he could do work, and he is on a cheap deal. Also, this move forces Randy to play Kelly!

Yea the more I think about it I really like it. Adding leuer means temple has to go to Phoenix thought.

Raps need some rest time for Lowry, Neal helps there.
Dudley can play the 3 until Carroll is back, then he can be a small ball 4 mostly.
Morris fits into the starting lineup and give us a shot creator in the front court that will be desperately needed come playoffs.
I wonder what Phoenix says though, they probably like leuer which could be a sticking point

I would not send them Temple, I would send them gooden because it makes the money more even and gives them a cheap 1 year big to replace morris with. But thaat deal should be more than good for the Suns they get another first, and a second for a guys they can barley move as is, with morrises issues I'm sure they will take that deal and run.

Throwing in Temple makes us better. Oubre needs to play. With extended minutes, his three ball will improve. He's already a difference maker on defense.

[gambitx777]

Yea the more I think about it I really like it. Adding leuer means temple has to go to Phoenix thought.

Raps need some rest time for Lowry, Neal helps there.
Dudley can play the 3 until Carroll is back, then he can be a small ball 4 mostly.
Morris fits into the starting lineup and give us a shot creator in the front court that will be desperately needed come playoffs.
I wonder what Phoenix says though, they probably like leuer which could be a sticking point

I would not send them Temple, I would send them gooden because it makes the money more even and gives them a cheap 1 year big to replace morris with. But thaat deal should be more than good for the Suns they get another first, and a second for a guys they can barley move as is, with morrises issues I'm sure they will take that deal and run.

Throwing in Temple makes us better. Oubre needs to play. With extended minutes, his three ball will improve. He's already a difference maker on defense.

Temple does not really take minutes away from kelly, yes he can but with neal gone we need to keep options open for injuries, meaning keep temple. Kelly will get plenty of minutes with Neal and Dudley gone.

[payitforward]

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

The cavs don't owe a first after this year, if their pick does not fall in the top 10 this year.
I say we ask for 2018, 2020 and and Cedi Osman.

Not sure what you guys are thinking with the current outlook of the team, but how does something like this look.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=jzu56sb
You'd get back a second, Phoenix gets torontos first. Does that hamper your kd hopes, does it fit future plans? A solid defensive stretch 4 to go with wall, and a future center prospect that would be a great pnr partner, is a solid passer and was a dpoy in the Spanish acb league. Just needs to improve his defensive rebounding. Thoughts?

It's not awful, but it's not great either. Swapping Dudley for Patterson is a definite downgrade, but at least it gives us a warm body to trot out at PF next year. He's cheap enough to fit under the cap while still leaving max cap room for Durant.

I'd shop around for a better offer first. Patterson just isn't a starting caliber player. I'd rather explore trade options for Markieff Morris, Terrence Jones or Motiejunas. I'd also look at younger guys with more upside like Jon Leuer before circling back to Patterson.

You know... I really don't think anyone wants Markieff Morris. His value is so low that, given his contract, he looks to be hard to trade.

Nate -- you say Patterson is a downgrade from Dudley, but really overall their numbers aren't all that different (and this is a very down year for Patterson).

Per 40 minutes they make the same number of 3's, but Patterson has to take 1.9 more shots to get them. Yet, he also gets you 2 more boards in that time. Moreover, as I say, he is having an off year (including and especially 3 pt. %).

I'm not suggesting we *should* make the trade, btw. But I don't think it'd affect our record -- and that's only because we play Dudley at the 4. If you play him at his "natural" position, the 3, his numbers don't change -- but they're much better productivity for a 3 than they are for a 4.

I'd love to have Noguira, however, and I view this season as more or less certain to put us in the lottery anyway. I also think Gary Neal has no value to speak of. So, it'd be a plus for us for just the reasons you point out: Patterson as a meh but cheap backup PF next year, Noguira as a genuine prospect, and we give up nothing past this season.

[Ruzious]

With the development of Whiteside, people are looking for the next Whiteside, and it's possible Noguira could come close - though not likely. Ya just never know with a raw talent like him - even at 23 years old. I'd be doubtful that the Wiz are the best place for someone like him to develop, and I'd wait till his contract runs out before making a decision on him.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I haven't come up with a good name for it, but I ran a metric I've been playing with get at value of assets on the roster. Basically, it combines production and age -- highly productive young players being more valuable than a similarly productive old player (because the youngster has more of a future. The Wizards ranked 19th overall, and 9th in the East.

I don't see how it's possible that a metric that has us 9th in the East, while it also adjusts up for youth and down for age, can be measuring accurately.

We are 11th-12th in the East in record, and our team is one of the older teams in the league -- and certainly in the East. Leave aside the age adjustment, you'd expect the 9th most productive team overall to have the 9th best record.

Unless, of course, this metric doesn't take minutes played into account. E.g. from what you've written here about correlation of PPA to team results, I assume that the total PPA of all our players, adjusted for minutes played, would be 11th-12th in the East.

What am I missing?

Dunno. It's still a work in progress, and I'm not exactly super-attached to the results. Plus, the numbers change as games are played. I think the Wiz were 9th in the East standings when I ran those numbers. When I look a little closer, the Wiz were 9th when I posted, but in a virtual tie with New York and Detroit. It seems to break into "tiers" with Boston, Orlando, Atlanta and Toronto at the top; Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indy and Charlotte in the next group, and then the Wiz, Knicks, Pistons grouping. Then Miami and Chicago, then Philly and Brooklyn.

Overall, the Wiz were 19th in the league, in an "about the same" range with NYK, DET, SAC, and PHO.

The Wiz age thing is kinda interesting. Their minutes weighted age is 27.4, which is 12th highest, but not much higher than the average (26.8). Last season, they were 6th oldest at 28.6. But, how did they get younger? Well, by getting "younger":

Code: Select all

RANK    15-16                                   16-17
1       25      Wall            Wall            24
2       31      Dudley          Gortat          30
3       31      Gortat          Beal            21
4       22      Porter          Pierce          37
5       29      Temple          Nenê            32
6       29      Sessions        Butler          35
7       22      Beal            Porter          21
8       31      Neal            Humprhies       29
9       20      Oubre           Seraphin        25
10      33      Nenê            Gooden          33
11      30      Humphries       Temple          28
12      34      Gooden          Miller          38
13      26      Blair           Sessions        28
14      24      Eddie           Webster         28
15      31      Hollins         Blair           25
                               
        27.9                                    28.9


Basically, they got "younger" by exchanging ancient temps for slightly less ancient temps.

When I look at these rosters, the word that keeps coming to mind for Ernie Grunfeld: charlatan.

[dalton749]

With the development of Whiteside, people are looking for the next Whiteside, and it's possible Noguira could come close - though not likely. Ya just never know with a raw talent like him - even at 23 years old. I'd be doubtful that the Wiz are the best place for someone like him to develop, and I'd wait till his contract runs out before making a decision on him.

He's a really interesting prospect, I'm not sure what his deal is. His length is ridiculous, he was a dpoy in the Spanish league before coming to the nba but that hasn't transferred yet, he has good touch around the rim and can step out and hit a jumper, and has Noah like passing abilities. I think the main problem is his inability to box out consistently and get in there and bang is what keeps him on the bench, needs a season of consistent minutes.

[Ruzious]

With the development of Whiteside, people are looking for the next Whiteside, and it's possible Noguira could come close - though not likely. Ya just never know with a raw talent like him - even at 23 years old. I'd be doubtful that the Wiz are the best place for someone like him to develop, and I'd wait till his contract runs out before making a decision on him.

He's a really interesting prospect, I'm not sure what his deal is. His length is ridiculous, he was a dpoy in the Spanish league before coming to the nba but that hasn't transferred yet, he has good touch around the rim and can step out and hit a jumper, and has Noah like passing abilities. I think the main problem is his inability to box out consistently and get in there and bang is what keeps him on the bench, needs a season of consistent minutes.

I remember him way back to when he and Biyumbo were on the international under 18 team together going against Anthony Davis. Biyumbo was much more advanced - so that tells you how raw Noguira was. But Biyumbo was much more physically developed then and was much stronger. Has Noguira filled out - and do you see him as someone who can hold his own strength-wise in the NBA?

[dalton749]

With the development of Whiteside, people are looking for the next Whiteside, and it's possible Noguira could come close - though not likely. Ya just never know with a raw talent like him - even at 23 years old. I'd be doubtful that the Wiz are the best place for someone like him to develop, and I'd wait till his contract runs out before making a decision on him.

He's a really interesting prospect, I'm not sure what his deal is. His length is ridiculous, he was a dpoy in the Spanish league before coming to the nba but that hasn't transferred yet, he has good touch around the rim and can step out and hit a jumper, and has Noah like passing abilities. I think the main problem is his inability to box out consistently and get in there and bang is what keeps him on the bench, needs a season of consistent minutes.

I remember him way back to when he and Biyumbo were on the international under 18 team together going against Anthony Davis. Biyumbo was much more advanced - so that tells you how raw Noguira was. But Biyumbo was much more physically developed then and was much stronger. Has Noguira filled out - and do you see him as someone who can hold his own strength-wise in the NBA?

He still doesn't look in great shape, like a skinny fat if that makes any sense. This year he said he was finally going to get serious, I guess he wasn't last year, but he always has these little injuries that hold him back. I think his core strength is lacking so he will get bullied in the post

[Ruzious]

He's a really interesting prospect, I'm not sure what his deal is. His length is ridiculous, he was a dpoy in the Spanish league before coming to the nba but that hasn't transferred yet, he has good touch around the rim and can step out and hit a jumper, and has Noah like passing abilities. I think the main problem is his inability to box out consistently and get in there and bang is what keeps him on the bench, needs a season of consistent minutes.

I remember him way back to when he and Biyumbo were on the international under 18 team together going against Anthony Davis. Biyumbo was much more advanced - so that tells you how raw Noguira was. But Biyumbo was much more physically developed then and was much stronger. Has Noguira filled out - and do you see him as someone who can hold his own strength-wise in the NBA?

He still doesn't look in great shape, like a skinny fat if that makes any sense. This year he said he was finally going to get serious, I guess he wasn't last year, but he always has these little injuries that hold him back. I think his core strength is lacking so he will get bullied in the post

The good news there is that if he really does develop a strong work ethic, he can improve quite a lot.

[dalton749]

I remember him way back to when he and Biyumbo were on the international under 18 team together going against Anthony Davis. Biyumbo was much more advanced - so that tells you how raw Noguira was. But Biyumbo was much more physically developed then and was much stronger. Has Noguira filled out - and do you see him as someone who can hold his own strength-wise in the NBA?

He still doesn't look in great shape, like a skinny fat if that makes any sense. This year he said he was finally going to get serious, I guess he wasn't last year, but he always has these little injuries that hold him back. I think his core strength is lacking so he will get bullied in the post

The good news there is that if he really does develop a strong work ethic, he can improve quite a lot.

yea that's basically torontos entire 11-15 end of bench. A bunch of guys who have all of the tools to be really good 2 way players, but maybe 1 of the 5 pans out.

[Ruzious]

He still doesn't look in great shape, like a skinny fat if that makes any sense. This year he said he was finally going to get serious, I guess he wasn't last year, but he always has these little injuries that hold him back. I think his core strength is lacking so he will get bullied in the post

The good news there is that if he really does develop a strong work ethic, he can improve quite a lot.

yea that's basically torontos entire 11-15 end of bench. A bunch of guys who have all of the tools to be really good 2 way players, but maybe 1 of the 5 pans out.

I think Wright and Powell were both underrated prospects who can play in the NBA. Bennett - never liked him and wow, was he over-rated, but yeah, I guess he could possibly become a decent player if he worked harder.