Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

[pcbothwel]

I'm not interested into any further consolidation of this core. I want better usage/lineups/growth from our current group. Once that ceiling is realized, I prefer to 1) Rebuild by trading at least 2/3 of the core if they dont look competitive, or 2) Retool if they look good by trading 1/3 to cut cost and get cheaper depth.

No further consolidation except that you want to trade either 1 or 2 of the 3 guys... Ok, got it.

Players have ceilings. Individuals, not groups. & individuals improve. Of those 3 guys, 1 may improve & 2 get worse. 2 may get better & a third plateau or decline. Or 1 could get better, 1 plateau at his ceiling, & the 3d be worse. Or they all 3 could get better -- as individuals. Or all of them could decline. Or all plateau. As individuals

If Wall & Beal come back strong, but what they do is play as they did 2 years ago, will that not tell you that you are seeing their ceilings?

Brad Beal just turned 25. Doesn't he have to improve rather than plateau? If he plateaus, doesn't that make it likely we are seeing his ceiling? Perhaps the same in Porter's case?

John Wall, otoh, is 28. John Wall is entering his 9th NBA season; he's a veteran not a developing young player. Plus, he's played a lot... 4000 more minutes than Jimmy Butler, the guy who's supposed to have all that "wear and tear" on his body.

I'm not saying he can't have a little better year than 2 years ago. Of course he can. Or not quite as good; that can happen too. But, significant development? Hey, I don't have a crystall ball. But, Wall's game is based on athleticism; isn't he more likely to start declining some time in the next couple of years than to become meaningfully better than he already is?

PIF,
You're missing my point. i have no interest in consolidating assets to double down on this core. I.E. Im not trading Oubre and a 1st for a 4th "Star", or trading Otto and a 1st for a Superstar.
Consolidating requires taking a number of separate pieces and combining them. So when I look to trade Beal or Otto for 2-3 pieces...that is the opposite of consolidation.

And the Wall, Beal, Otto "Ceilings" of two years ago is better than 98% of the league. You add in a legit Sato & Oubre along with Dwight Howard... I'll take it. Morris, Rivers, & Brown not being suck is just gravy.

[payitforward]

... Remember, Howard's got a player option for 19/20, so we'll have to either sign him for an increase or find someone else to start at center.

??

Or, he picks up his option.

Sounds like someone needs more sleep. My point was that we need to reserve some salary for an adequate starting center next season - in addition to paying the big 3, so there's no way we could add Butler without giving up one of the big 3.

You are right -- there is no way we can add Butler unless one of the 3 goes.

OTOH, you are also right that if Howard picks up his option he will "sign... for an increase." $267K

[payitforward]

PIF,
You're missing my point. i have no interest in consolidating assets to double down on this core. I.E. Im not trading Oubre and a 1st for a 4th "Star", or trading Otto and a 1st for a Superstar.
Consolidating requires taking a number of separate pieces and combining them. So when I look to trade Beal or Otto for 2-3 pieces...that is the opposite of consolidation.

And the Wall, Beal, Otto "Ceilings" of two years ago is better than 98% of the league. You add in a legit Sato & Oubre along with Dwight Howard... I'll take it. Morris, Rivers, & Brown not being suck is just gravy.

You're right, I missed your point totally! Maybe Ruz is right, & I do need some more sleep!

OTOH, I'm sure you didn't mean 98% of the league literally, as it would put all 3 of Wall/Beal/Porter among the top dozen players in the league!

If Dwight plays the way he should w/o being a problem in the locker room, if Sato maintains or improves, if Oubre actually becomes "legit," & if Brown develops quicker than you'd expect from a kid his age, then the fact that yeah Morris & Rivers really are suck shouldn't suffice to mess us up.

Especially when Thomas Bryant proves the very good young player I am counting on him to be!

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

PIF,
You're missing my point. i have no interest in consolidating assets to double down on this core. I.E. Im not trading Oubre and a 1st for a 4th "Star", or trading Otto and a 1st for a Superstar.
Consolidating requires taking a number of separate pieces and combining them. So when I look to trade Beal or Otto for 2-3 pieces...that is the opposite of consolidation.

And the Wall, Beal, Otto "Ceilings" of two years ago is better than 98% of the league. You add in a legit Sato & Oubre along with Dwight Howard... I'll take it. Morris, Rivers, & Brown not being suck is just gravy.

You're right, I missed your point totally! Maybe Ruz is right, & I do need some more sleep!

OTOH, I'm sure you didn't mean 98% of the league literally, as it would put all 3 of Wall/Beal/Porter among the top dozen players in the league!

If Dwight plays the way he should w/o being a problem in the locker room, if Sato maintains or improves, if Oubre actually becomes "legit," & if Brown develops quicker than you'd expect from a kid his age, then the fact that yeah Morris & Rivers really are suck shouldn't suffice to mess us up.

Especially when Thomas Bryant proves the very good young player I am counting on him to be!

CSN is talking about Bryant playing for the Go Go.

No no!

Bryant is a Wizard baby ... wand and all.

[pcbothwel]

PIF,
You're missing my point. i have no interest in consolidating assets to double down on this core. I.E. Im not trading Oubre and a 1st for a 4th "Star", or trading Otto and a 1st for a Superstar.
Consolidating requires taking a number of separate pieces and combining them. So when I look to trade Beal or Otto for 2-3 pieces...that is the opposite of consolidation.

And the Wall, Beal, Otto "Ceilings" of two years ago is better than 98% of the league. You add in a legit Sato & Oubre along with Dwight Howard... I'll take it. Morris, Rivers, & Brown not being suck is just gravy.

You're right, I missed your point totally! Maybe Ruz is right, & I do need some more sleep!

OTOH, I'm sure you didn't mean 98% of the league literally, as it would put all 3 of Wall/Beal/Porter among the top dozen players in the league!

If Dwight plays the way he should w/o being a problem in the locker room, if Sato maintains or improves, if Oubre actually becomes "legit," & if Brown develops quicker than you'd expect from a kid his age, then the fact that yeah Morris & Rivers really are suck shouldn't suffice to mess us up.

Especially when Thomas Bryant proves the very good young player I am counting on him to be!

CSN is talking about Bryant playing for the Go Go.

No no!

Bryant is a Wizard baby ... wand and all.

I have no issue with that. He needs minutes, remember he came out after his Sophomore year. Dwight and Mahinmi are healthy and should take up 42-44 MPG with Morris getting the other 4-6 MPG... I'd also be sure to let Smith get some burn from time to time to jack up 3's and play with energy. See where that shot is.

[Ruzious]

??

Or, he picks up his option.

Sounds like someone needs more sleep. My point was that we need to reserve some salary for an adequate starting center next season - in addition to paying the big 3, so there's no way we could add Butler without giving up one of the big 3.

You are right -- there is no way we can add Butler unless one of the 3 goes.

OTOH, you are also right that if Howard picks up his option he will "sign... for an increase." $267K

You had me at "You are right." I hear that so rarely! I got so excited to see that - I forgot what the topic was.

[payitforward]

I'm not interested into any further consolidation of this core. I want better usage/lineups/growth from our current group. Once that ceiling is realized, I prefer to 1) Rebuild by trading at least 2/3 of the core if they dont look competitive, or 2) Retool if they look good by trading 1/3 to cut cost and get cheaper depth.

No further consolidation except that you want to trade either 1 or 2 of the 3 guys... Ok, got it.

Players have ceilings. Individuals, not groups. & individuals improve. Of those 3 guys, 1 may improve & 2 get worse. 2 may get better & a third plateau or decline. Or 1 could get better, 1 plateau at his ceiling, & the 3d be worse. Or they all 3 could get better -- as individuals. Or all of them could decline. Or all plateau. As individuals

If Wall & Beal come back strong, but what they do is play as they did 2 years ago, will that not tell you that you are seeing their ceilings?

Brad Beal just turned 25. Doesn't he have to improve rather than plateau? If he plateaus, doesn't that make it likely we are seeing his ceiling? Perhaps the same in Porter's case?

John Wall, otoh, is 28. John Wall is entering his 9th NBA season; he's a veteran not a developing young player. Plus, he's played a lot... 4000 more minutes than Jimmy Butler, the guy who's supposed to have all that "wear and tear" on his body.

I'm not saying he can't have a little better year than 2 years ago. Of course he can. Or not quite as good; that can happen too. But, significant development? Hey, I don't have a crystall ball. But, Wall's game is based on athleticism; isn't he more likely to start declining some time in the next couple of years than to become meaningfully better than he already is?

You keep using minutes as your basis for wear and tear, but injuries are more important to a player's deterioration. Butler's played 70 games twice in his career. He's also never won anything. Not to be too rough on you, but I remember years ago when you said the Wiz shouldn't acquire LaMarcus Aldridge when he was 27 because you said he' was too close to 30. Butler's 29 - one step from an NBA nursing home.

The above comment was about John Wall not Jimmy Butler. I don't think I said anything particularly controversial about Wall. Nor anything negative. Certainly didn't mean to. Just questioning the idea that he should be seen in terms of his future potential. & mentioning that we should keep in mind the kind of player he is ("game... based on athleticism") in thinking about his future.

The comment about Butler was for perspective, to help make it clear that John is "a veteran not a developing young player." Period.

Nor did I even mention "wear & tear" on Wall in connection w/ the number of minutes he's played; again I meant only to point out that we're talking about a veteran.

You're certainly right that injuries can debilitate a player & his game more significantly, & quicker, than minutes. But if you want to take up that issue, you might do it with the guy who brought up wear & tear as an issue about Butler -- he said nothing about injuries. He based it on Thibs, in fact.

I also didn't call for us to acquire Jimmy Butler. Never have.

What I have said is that I think it's kind of inevitable that we can't keep all 3 of W/B/P; I've also said that I'd prefer to trade Beal rather than Porter.

& I've said as well that trading Brad for Jimmy Butler right now might work well -- even though we almost certainly couldn't retain Butler. By "work well," I mean a) make us better in the short term (Butler being a better player than Brad, a statement that's not meant as a criticism of Brad), & b) he'd be likely to opt out for next year, giving us a huge amount more flexibility in re: Oubre, Sato, etc.

On reflection, however, it would be even better, if possible, to trade Beal for young assets/picks, etc. Which is why I suggested another trade -- with the Lakers.

In short, it's possible that you have an argument with somebody here but... not with me

[payitforward]

Sounds like someone needs more sleep. My point was that we need to reserve some salary for an adequate starting center next season - in addition to paying the big 3, so there's no way we could add Butler without giving up one of the big 3.

You are right -- there is no way we can add Butler unless one of the 3 goes.

OTOH, you are also right that if Howard picks up his option he will "sign... for an increase." $267K

You had me at "You are right." I hear that so rarely! I got so excited to see that - I forgot what the topic was.

You forgot what what topic was?

$267K may not be much $$ to an NBA player, but it would be ok for Dwight to send it my way!

Ruz: you are right a lot of the time, often, in fact almost always; have I really written that "so rarely?" The truth is that it's only in disagreeing w/ me that you are likely to be wrong. You'd agree w/ me on that, right?

Here's something we're sure to agree on: it'll be a relief when training camp starts, & we can talk about something that's actually happening!!

[Ruzious]

You are right -- there is no way we can add Butler unless one of the 3 goes.

OTOH, you are also right that if Howard picks up his option he will "sign... for an increase." $267K

You had me at "You are right." I hear that so rarely! I got so excited to see that - I forgot what the topic was.

You forgot what what topic was?

$267K may not be much $$ to an NBA player, but it would be ok for Dwight to send it my way!

Ruz: you are right a lot of the time, often, in fact almost always; have I really written that "so rarely?" The truth is that it's only in disagreeing w/ me that you are likely to be wrong. You'd agree w/ me on that, right?

Here's something we're sure to agree on: it'll be a relief when training camp starts, & we can talk about something that's actually happening!!

I would be perfectly fine with the bolded part - even if I have no idea where the $267K number came from.

[payitforward]

You had me at "You are right." I hear that so rarely! I got so excited to see that - I forgot what the topic was.

You forgot what what topic was?

$267K may not be much $$ to an NBA player, but it would be ok for Dwight to send it my way!

Ruz: you are right a lot of the time, often, in fact almost always; have I really written that "so rarely?" The truth is that it's only in disagreeing w/ me that you are likely to be wrong. You'd agree w/ me on that, right?

Here's something we're sure to agree on: it'll be a relief when training camp starts, & we can talk about something that's actually happening!!

I would be perfectly fine with the bolded part - even if I have no idea where the $267K number came from.

If you get the $$ don't ask where it came from!

It's the difference between Howard's salary this year & his slightly higher salary next year should he pick up his option. How this number became relevant & what it became relevant to are another question. I'm sure it could be figured out by looking back over the posts, but... lets not & say we did!

[Rafael122]

I'm not interested into any further consolidation of this core. I want better usage/lineups/growth from our current group. Once that ceiling is realized, I prefer to 1) Rebuild by trading at least 2/3 of the core if they dont look competitive, or 2) Retool if they look good by trading 1/3 to cut cost and get cheaper depth.

No further consolidation except that you want to trade either 1 or 2 of the 3 guys... Ok, got it.

Players have ceilings. Individuals, not groups. & individuals improve. Of those 3 guys, 1 may improve & 2 get worse. 2 may get better & a third plateau or decline. Or 1 could get better, 1 plateau at his ceiling, & the 3d be worse. Or they all 3 could get better -- as individuals. Or all of them could decline. Or all plateau. As individuals

If Wall & Beal come back strong, but what they do is play as they did 2 years ago, will that not tell you that you are seeing their ceilings?

Brad Beal just turned 25. Doesn't he have to improve rather than plateau? If he plateaus, doesn't that make it likely we are seeing his ceiling? Perhaps the same in Porter's case?

John Wall, otoh, is 28. John Wall is entering his 9th NBA season; he's a veteran not a developing young player. Plus, he's played a lot... 4000 more minutes than Jimmy Butler, the guy who's supposed to have all that "wear and tear" on his body.

I'm not saying he can't have a little better year than 2 years ago. Of course he can. Or not quite as good; that can happen too. But, significant development? Hey, I don't have a crystall ball. But, Wall's game is based on athleticism; isn't he more likely to start declining some time in the next couple of years than to become meaningfully better than he already is?

Edit: Actually, I'm making it sound like there's a bigger difference between our POV than there really is. The main difference is that I sort of think I've already seen -- or seen enough of -- what you seem to feel you still need to see this season.

IOW, I think we could have quite a good regular season, perhaps our best in many decades. But I still can't see us getting out of R2 of the playoffs -- no matter how many positive pieces of good fortune we have. To me, this far into building a generation of a team, if you can't do that it's time to overhaul.

But... I could be wrong -- no, better, I hope I'm wrong! But... for the moment I can't convince myself I am.

Chris Paul got traded for folks like Sam Dekker,Montrez Harrell, and Lou Williams but for whatever reason, this board always seems intent on giving up your best players for one year rentals, especially one year rentals with a ton of wear and tear and possible locker room issues. You think Boston would give up Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown? Probably not. You think Philly is going to give up Ben Simmons or Fultz? Probably not. So why should we? ****, Jimmy Butler got traded for Zach LaVine, the 7th pick and Kris Dunn. Any GM that trades one of their top 3 or 4 players for a rental should be fired.

[dckingsfan]

I'm not interested into any further consolidation of this core. I want better usage/lineups/growth from our current group. Once that ceiling is realized, I prefer to 1) Rebuild by trading at least 2/3 of the core if they dont look competitive, or 2) Retool if they look good by trading 1/3 to cut cost and get cheaper depth.

No further consolidation except that you want to trade either 1 or 2 of the 3 guys... Ok, got it.

Players have ceilings. Individuals, not groups. & individuals improve. Of those 3 guys, 1 may improve & 2 get worse. 2 may get better & a third plateau or decline. Or 1 could get better, 1 plateau at his ceiling, & the 3d be worse. Or they all 3 could get better -- as individuals. Or all of them could decline. Or all plateau. As individuals

If Wall & Beal come back strong, but what they do is play as they did 2 years ago, will that not tell you that you are seeing their ceilings?

Brad Beal just turned 25. Doesn't he have to improve rather than plateau? If he plateaus, doesn't that make it likely we are seeing his ceiling? Perhaps the same in Porter's case?

John Wall, otoh, is 28. John Wall is entering his 9th NBA season; he's a veteran not a developing young player. Plus, he's played a lot... 4000 more minutes than Jimmy Butler, the guy who's supposed to have all that "wear and tear" on his body.

I'm not saying he can't have a little better year than 2 years ago. Of course he can. Or not quite as good; that can happen too. But, significant development? Hey, I don't have a crystall ball. But, Wall's game is based on athleticism; isn't he more likely to start declining some time in the next couple of years than to become meaningfully better than he already is?

Edit: Actually, I'm making it sound like there's a bigger difference between our POV than there really is. The main difference is that I sort of think I've already seen -- or seen enough of -- what you seem to feel you still need to see this season.

IOW, I think we could have quite a good regular season, perhaps our best in many decades. But I still can't see us getting out of R2 of the playoffs -- no matter how many positive pieces of good fortune we have. To me, this far into building a generation of a team, if you can't do that it's time to overhaul.

But... I could be wrong -- no, better, I hope I'm wrong! But... for the moment I can't convince myself I am.

Chris Paul got traded for folks like Sam Dekker,Montrez Harrell, and Lou Williams but for whatever reason, this board always seems intent on giving up your best players for one year rentals, especially one year rentals with a ton of wear and tear and possible locker room issues. You think Boston would give up Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown? Probably not. You think Philly is going to give up Ben Simmons or Fultz? Probably not. So why should we? ****, Jimmy Butler got traded for Zach LaVine, the 7th pick and Kris Dunn. Any GM that trades one of their top 3 or 4 players for a rental should be fired.

EG should have been fired long ago for putting us in this position... it isn't that we WANT to let one of our players go, it is that we are going to be in the repeaters tax for a mediocre team.

[DCZards]

Chris Paul got traded for folks like Sam Dekker,Montrez Harrell, and Lou Williams but for whatever reason, this board always seems intent on giving up your best players for one year rentals, especially one year rentals with a ton of wear and tear and possible locker room issues. You think Boston would give up Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown? Probably not. You think Philly is going to give up Ben Simmons or Fultz? Probably not. So why should we? ****, Jimmy Butler got traded for Zach LaVine, the 7th pick and Kris Dunn. Any GM that trades one of their top 3 or 4 players for a rental should be fired.

EG should have been fired long ago for putting us in this position... it isn't that we WANT to let one of our players go, it is that we are going to be in the repeaters tax for a mediocre team.

The issue isn’t trading Beal (or Wall/Porter) in order to avoid the tax, the issue is trading one of them for a one-year rental (Butler). I agree with Raf that that would be a mistake…even if it made it possible for the Zards to resign both Sato and Oubre.

On the other hand, PIF’s idea for trading a Beal, Wall or Porter for young assets/pick has merit. Of course, the bar needs to be set high when considering trades for all-star level players like Beal, Wall and Porter.

[dckingsfan]

Chris Paul got traded for folks like Sam Dekker,Montrez Harrell, and Lou Williams but for whatever reason, this board always seems intent on giving up your best players for one year rentals, especially one year rentals with a ton of wear and tear and possible locker room issues. You think Boston would give up Jayson Tatum or Jaylen Brown? Probably not. You think Philly is going to give up Ben Simmons or Fultz? Probably not. So why should we? ****, Jimmy Butler got traded for Zach LaVine, the 7th pick and Kris Dunn. Any GM that trades one of their top 3 or 4 players for a rental should be fired.

EG should have been fired long ago for putting us in this position... it isn't that we WANT to let one of our players go, it is that we are going to be in the repeaters tax for a mediocre team.

The issue isn’t trading Beal (or Wall/Porter) in order to avoid the tax, the issue is trading one of them for a one-year rental (Butler). I agree with Raf that that would be a mistake…even if it made it possible for the Zards to resign both Sato and Oubre.

On the other hand, PIF’s idea for trading a Beal, Wall or Porter for young assets/pick has merit. Of course, the bar needs to be set high when considering trades for all-star level players like Beal, Wall and Porter.

Agreed AND EG should have been fired long ago for putting us in this position...

[youngWizzy]

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[NatP4]

Oubre+Brown+2019 1st for Jimmy Butler

Wall Sato
Beal Sato
Butler Sato
Porter Green
Howard Mahinmi

4 of the best players in the east on one team makes us GS east right?

[WallToWall]

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html?%24deeplink_path=article%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams&%24fallback_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.bleacherreport.com%2Famp%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html&_branch_match_id=530945837692521568

So it looks like Jimmy Butler wants out. Although the Wiz are supposedly not on his list of teams where he would sign an extension, we should probably entertain the though of a trade. He would be great at small ball SF, and back fill Beal at SG. I haven't checked the trade checker, but wonder if Butler + filler FOR Mahinmi + Sato would work.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

[NatP4]

I think people ignore some of the intangible benefits of truly contending and not getting the 8th seed and getting bounced in round 1 again.

Wall for Butler is a dream, young assets for Butler and contending for a championship is a close 2nd.

[NatP4]

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html?%24deeplink_path=article%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams&%24fallback_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.bleacherreport.com%2Famp%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html&_branch_match_id=530945837692521568

So it looks like Jimmy Butler wants out. Although the Wiz are supposedly not on his list of teams where he would sign an extension, we should probably entertain the though of a trade. He would be great at small ball SF, and back fill Beal at SG. I haven't checked the trade checker, but wonder if Butler + filler FOR Mahinmi + Sato would work.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

That’s not getting it done, but flipping Oubre and a pick might. People need to remember, this is Jimmy Butler, not Paul George, not an injured/disgruntled Kawhi Leonard. This is one of the best players in the NBA with leadership qualities. Adding him would transform the wizards into a championship contender.

[WallToWall]

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html?%24deeplink_path=article%2Fbleacherreport.com%2Farticles%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams&%24fallback_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsyndication.bleacherreport.com%2Famp%2F2796610-jimmy-butler-trade-rumors-t-wolves-star-requests-deal-gives-shortlist-of-teams.amp.html&_branch_match_id=530945837692521568

So it looks like Jimmy Butler wants out. Although the Wiz are supposedly not on his list of teams where he would sign an extension, we should probably entertain the though of a trade. He would be great at small ball SF, and back fill Beal at SG. I haven't checked the trade checker, but wonder if Butler + filler FOR Mahinmi + Sato would work.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app

That’s not getting it done, but flipping Oubre and a pick might. People need to remember, this is Jimmy Butler, not Paul George, not an injured/disgruntled Kawhi Leonard. This is one of the best players in the NBA with leadership qualities. Adding him would transform the wizards into a championship contender.

I cant think of any team, not on his list of where he would sign an extension, giving up a ton to get him. I can see EG throwing in a pick with Sato and Mahinmi. It may not be the right price for Butler, but I dont see teams offering more right now.

Sent from my SM-G965U using RealGM mobile app