Political Roundtable Part XXX

[Ruzious]

Some of the comments in this thread about Covid are so absurd that it's really not conducive to any kind of serious discussion. If anything, it's making me feel like... this forum isn't for me anymore.

I'll bite my toungue and just say I've felt the same for a long while. Have a great day.

I'll just say it - You and Nate are both crazy. He's probably more crazy than you are, but you're both crazy. You're both great at analyzing basketball, but at some point, the other stuff overwhelms the basketball. See ya.

[Zonkerbl]

You guys should watch the NXIUM documentary on Netflix. The people who got caught up in that cult were very intelligent, successful people. Nevertheless, they got sucked in and it drove them crazy. That's the bad news - cults are a very real thing and they're all around us. And they drive you literally insane, because the stuff you have to believe to stay in the cult just doesn't make any sense to people outside, although it makes sense to the cult members when they talk to each other. And it's very, very difficult to convince people in cults to leave them.

The good news is once you do get people out of the cult, the cult-induced insanity goes away. It's curable.

[dckingsfan]

You guys should watch the NXIUM documentary on Netflix. The people who got caught up in that cult were very intelligent, successful people. Nevertheless, they got sucked in and it drove them crazy. That's the bad news - cults are a very real thing and they're all around us. And they drive you literally insane, because the stuff you have to believe to stay in the cult just doesn't make any sense to people outside, although it makes sense to the cult members when they talk to each other. And it's very, very difficult to convince people in cults to leave them.

The good news is once you do get people out of the cult, the cult-induced insanity goes away. It's curable.

And it isn't hard to create the cult/conspiracy.

Start with something that can't be proved or disproved.

Link it to a bad actor.

Link government to the bad actor through week evidence that might support your theory.

In this case link pharma to government to China.

Create the conspiracy

Spoiler:

Blaming 5G, blame Bill Gates and chips in the vaccine, virus escaped from a Chinese lab, COVID was created as a biological weapon, the US military imported COVID into China, COVID-19 doesn’t actually exist, the pandemic is being manipulated by the ‘deep state’, COVID is a plot by Big Pharma, COVID death rates are inflated, etc., etc.

Use, "trust me, you can't trust them".

Rinse, repeat.

[Pointgod]

Tinfoil hat alarm going of full-blast. Sorry, disinformation to justify "trust me, you can't trust them"...

If you notice all of these “opinions” have already been debunked numerous times and are often just recycled from other people. Everything is vague and high level enough to pass it off as opinion but they never go a layer deeper into anything of substance. These are all examples of a lie being repeated enough times that people believe it’s true. No one on this site is a virologist or epidemiologist at least to my knowledge. Please stop posting like you know what you’re talking about is definitive. It’s not. It’s based on misinformation and misunderstanding of data and science.

Ok, you too???? Or are you the resident realgm epidemiologist?

I’ve refrained from talking about COVID in this thread because it’s politics but everything I’ll post about COVID is backed up by facts and data. I’ve read actual peer reviewed journals and they actually back up what the experts, you know people who’ve dedicated their lives to studying this have said. Trust me, you’re way out of your depth here and it shows.

[Dat2U]

You guys should watch the NXIUM documentary on Netflix. The people who got caught up in that cult were very intelligent, successful people. Nevertheless, they got sucked in and it drove them crazy. That's the bad news - cults are a very real thing and they're all around us. And they drive you literally insane, because the stuff you have to believe to stay in the cult just doesn't make any sense to people outside, although it makes sense to the cult members when they talk to each other. And it's very, very difficult to convince people in cults to leave them.

The good news is once you do get people out of the cult, the cult-induced insanity goes away. It's curable.

What's really accomplished by doing this? Do you think insulting and belittling folks is going to suddenly make them see your worldview?

'I don't agree with you.'

Why can't we leave it at that? I've been here more than 20 years and would have assumed a little more respect than 2 longtime mods actually calling me crazy. All for what, my vax status and my decision behind it? Is every unvaxxed person crazy and incapable of making decisions for themselves?

I'm comfortable where I stand, er 'rooted'. Your words are only a reflection of your own self esteem or lack thereof.

Take care.

[Dat2U]

Some of the comments in this thread about Covid are so absurd that it's really not conducive to any kind of serious discussion. If anything, it's making me feel like... this forum isn't for me anymore.

I'll bite my toungue and just say I've felt the same for a long while. Have a great day.

I'll just say it - You and Nate are both crazy. He's probably more crazy than you are, but you're both crazy. You're both great at analyzing basketball, but at some point, the other stuff overwhelms the basketball. See ya.

You've always been very easy to anger. I always thought being a mod was a bit of an overachievement for you. I was actually proud of you all these years. Still am.

[Benjammin]

We had a mod a few months ago blithely make a comment about white genocide being a good thing and I called him on it. I only come in and out of this thread occasionally because there's only one group think viewpoint that is considered correct. The funny thing is I have viewpoints all over the political spectrum but I clearly fail the purity test. Calling people crazy doesn't seem conducive to dialogue or mutual respect.

There's been plenty of off messaging and flat out lying during COVID like Fauci saying that masks don't help to try and protect the mask supply. A noble lie in a climate of mistrust only breeds more suspicion and mistrust.

Sent from my motorola edge plus using RealGM mobile app

[Pointgod]

Let me get this straight. You guys honestly believe that Covid-19 developed totally naturally? And it just happened to show up first in Wuhan down the street from the research lab? Oh yeah, and we can't find any host animal, and Fauci and Peter Daszak instituted a massive cover-up of the funding of the gain-of-function research for no particular reason?

This is such utter bull that I have to respond. Like I said this stuff has already been debunked and can be fact checked. You write this with such confidence but you’re pretty much parroting the same thing repeated by serial liars like Rand Paul and other conspiracy theorists.

The letter does not prove that. In fact, it goes to great lengths to explicitly state the opposite, noting that the viruses used in the experiments are “decades removed from SARS-CoV-2 evolutionarily” and that they “could not have been the source of SARS-CoV-2.”

Previously, other Republicans, including Florida Rep. Matt Gaetz and Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky, have at times falsely insinuated that the work could have led to the creation of SARS-CoV-2. Paul got into a heated debate with Fauci in July when both men accused the other of lying.

The EcoHealth Alliance experiments have nothing to do with the COVID-19 pandemic and did not produce SARS-CoV-2, the NIH says.

“Analysis of published genomic data and other documents from the grantee demonstrate that the naturally occurring bat coronaviruses studied under the NIH grant are genetically far distant from SARS-CoV-2 and could not possibly have caused the COVID-19 pandemic,” NIH Director Dr. Francis Collins said in an Oct. 20 statement, referring to an analysis posted to the NIAID’s website. “Any claims to the contrary are demonstrably false.”

The analysis shows that the viruses used in the EcoHealth Alliance experiments share only around 80% of their genomes with SARS-CoV-2 — a huge difference when making these comparisons.

But even these, the analysis explains, are still much too dissimilar to have given rise to SARS-CoV-2.

Setting aside the specific experiments performed with the grant funds, there is no evidence SARS-CoV-2 came from a lab, and many experts say that it’s virtually impossible for it to have been engineered.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/10/scicheck-republicans-spin-nih-letter-about-coronavirus-gain-of-function-research/

[Dat2U]

If you notice all of these “opinions” have already been debunked numerous times and are often just recycled from other people. Everything is vague and high level enough to pass it off as opinion but they never go a layer deeper into anything of substance. These are all examples of a lie being repeated enough times that people believe it’s true. No one on this site is a virologist or epidemiologist at least to my knowledge. Please stop posting like you know what you’re talking about is definitive. It’s not. It’s based on misinformation and misunderstanding of data and science.

Ok, you too???? Or are you the resident realgm epidemiologist?

I’ve refrained from talking about COVID in this thread because it’s politics but everything I’ll post about COVID is backed up by facts and data. I’ve read actual peer reviewed journals and they actually back up what the experts, you know people who’ve dedicated their lives to studying this have said. Trust me, you’re way out of your depth here and it shows.

'Trust me' lol. That always sells it.

Your not an expert either, nor have you ever displayed much depth on here so you saying this is rich and makes me laugh. You just believe what want to believe which is fine. I don't care. Won't care. You shouldn't care about my opinion but you do. That's something you should reconcile.

[Pointgod]

Ok, you too???? Or are you the resident realgm epidemiologist?

I’ve refrained from talking about COVID in this thread because it’s politics but everything I’ll post about COVID is backed up by facts and data. I’ve read actual peer reviewed journals and they actually back up what the experts, you know people who’ve dedicated their lives to studying this have said. Trust me, you’re way out of your depth here and it shows.

'Trust me' lol. That always sells it.

Your not an expert either, nor have you ever displayed much depth on here so you saying this is rich and makes me laugh. You just believe what want to believe which is fine. I don't care. Won't care. You shouldn't care about my opinion but you do. That's something you should reconcile.

Here’s the difference between me and you. Anything I say is supported by facts and data. Look I don’t care if you don’t want to get vaccinated, but you don’t get to lie and misinform to make yourself feel better about the decision. Just say that you don’t care about getting others sick and possibly worse. It’s fine, people will judge you but if you want to feel better in your convictions than so be it.

I would recommend that you actually take time to learn about the coronavirus and how vaccines work from reputable sources I.e. peer reviewed studies and legit medical journals. Just try using that as a source of information about anything COVID related for one week and see if anything changes. At the end of the day I hope you get vaccinated because there’s no turning back the clock if you get COVID and have serious illness.

[Zonkerbl]

Not saying you're wrong Dat. I'm saying I can smell crazy and you reek. Whether you're right about covid is the least thing I'm worried about. Who cares? By now we all know better than to listen to each others crazy rantings about covid.

It's just if I had a big sign saying "I'm a crazy person" taped to my back I'd want someone to tell me. Is the sign true? That's your problem to deal with.

[Dat2U]

Not saying you're wrong Dat. I'm saying I can smell crazy and you reek. Whether you're right about covid is the least thing I'm worried about. Who cares? By now we all know better than to listen to each others crazy rantings about covid.

It's just if I had a big sign saying "I'm a crazy person" taped to my back I'd want someone to tell me. Is the sign true? That's your problem to deal with.

The people I lead at work & those I mentor outside of it would challenge that demonstratively. Zonkerbl & Ruzious on realgm calling me crazy & telling me how clueless I am doesn't really resonate or bother me. It just tests my ability to respond appropriately and not fire back with heat seeking soul chrushing missles as I would often do in my younger days.

UK has decided to treat Covid like the flu and repealed all mandates. More european countries and Japan are considering this. Hell the NFL just said screw it and stopped testing unvaxxed players. I guess they are ALL crazy too. Or maybe they are realists. You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

[queridiculo]

UK has decided to treat Covid like the flu and repealed all mandates. More european countries and Japan are considering this. Hell the NFL just said screw it and stopped testing unvaxxed players. I guess they are ALL crazy too. Or maybe they are realists. You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

It bears noting that Boris Johnson had this to say about why he believes in easing measures:

"Our scientists believe it is likely that the omicron wave has now peaked nationally ... because of the extraordinary booster campaign," Johnson said, adding that restrictions also had slowed the spread.

Their course of action is informed on key measures the UK has taken that directly contradict your stance of no restrictions and no vaccination.

It's also worth pointing out that Boris Johnson is taking a massive gamble on a hunch that we may be entering the endemic phase following Omicron.

It is also not cynical to suggest that Boris Johnson's latest hail mary is simply an attempt to deflect and to garner support from his base after calls from within his own party to resign over the number of scandals he is involved in.

[nate33]

UK has decided to treat Covid like the flu and repealed all mandates. More european countries and Japan are considering this. Hell the NFL just said screw it and stopped testing unvaxxed players. I guess they are ALL crazy too. Or maybe they are realists. You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

It bears noting that Boris Johnson had this to say about why he believes in easing measures:

"Our scientists believe it is likely that the omicron wave has now peaked nationally ... because of the extraordinary booster campaign," Johnson said, adding that restrictions also had slowed the spread.

.

C'mon now. Of course he is going to say that. He would never say: "Apparently, vaccinations are doing nothing to stop the spread of Omicron. My bad".

Fortunately, the UK posts the raw data, even if they try to obscure the true failure of the vaccine by eliminating the graphs that demonstrated the problem visually. But if you take the data and graph it yourself, you can see what's going on. I few bloggers have helpfully done so. Here is the case rate data in the UK:



Here's the case rate data from Scotland:



And here's the hospitalization data from Scotland:



Notably, even the hospitalization data shows negative vaccine effectiveness for the double-vaxxed. The boosters seem to be helping some, but there is the data artifact that I discussed in the Covid thread where the booster jab temporarily reduces your immunity, and the post-jab infections over the next 2 weeks get charged to the double vaxed. The reality is that the boosted probably aren't doing quite as well as depicted and the double-vaxxed are doing a little better.

Comparing the case rates of the heaviest vaccinated countries in Europe to the least vaccinated is also illustrative. Here's a case rate graph of the 3 most boosted countries in Europe: Gibraltar, Iceland, Israel (not Europe, but good data), versus the 3 of the least boosted countries in Europe: Russia, Georgia, and Belarus.

[queridiculo]

UK has decided to treat Covid like the flu and repealed all mandates. More european countries and Japan are considering this. Hell the NFL just said screw it and stopped testing unvaxxed players. I guess they are ALL crazy too. Or maybe they are realists. You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

It bears noting that Boris Johnson had this to say about why he believes in easing measures:

"Our scientists believe it is likely that the omicron wave has now peaked nationally ... because of the extraordinary booster campaign," Johnson said, adding that restrictions also had slowed the spread.

.

C'mon now. Of course he is going to say that. He would never say: "Apparently, vaccinations are doing nothing to stop the spread of Omicron. My bad".

You're moving the goal posts yet again.

There is no claim being made that it stops the spread, and there's yet even more information released just recently that clearly demonstrates the efficacy of the vaccines.

There is an overwhelming amount of data that demonstrates the effectiveness of vaccines and you have yet to make a compelling argument that it doesn't.

[nate33]

It bears noting that Boris Johnson had this to say about why he believes in easing measures:

.

C'mon now. Of course he is going to say that. He would never say: "Apparently, vaccinations are doing nothing to stop the spread of Omicron. My bad".

You're moving the goal posts yet again.

There is no claim being made that it stops the spread,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dat2U addressing exactly that?

You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

I was merely supporting his assertion.

As to the vaccines prevent adverse health consequences. I've admitted dozens of times in the Covid thread that a vaccinated individual is less likely to suffer hospitalization and death from Covid. However, it is now evident that the vaccines are limiting adverse health consequences to a much lesser degree with Omicron. And when you factor that the vaccines now appear to be actually INCREASING the spread of Covid, and thereby infecting more total people, one must wonder if they are having any benefit at all.

Ultimately the true arbiter of this will be all-cause deaths compared between high vaccination areas and low vaccination areas. All-cause death rate is typically very slow to come in.

[queridiculo]

C'mon now. Of course he is going to say that. He would never say: "Apparently, vaccinations are doing nothing to stop the spread of Omicron. My bad".

You're moving the goal posts yet again.

There is no claim being made that it stops the spread,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Dat2U addressing exactly that?

No, he wasn't.

He claimed that the UKs response to relax measures is prima facia evidence for our talking points being outdated, when in fact, Boris Johnson's claim is that vaccine efficacy and the effectiveness of the previous measures are what is driving the decision.

His position is clearly contradicted by the Tories response.

[Zonkerbl]

I have been in the workplace for two decades and I have had some colossally stupid "leaders." Nothing about being a leader makes you immune from arrogantly assuming you're right when you are, in fact, wrong. My experience has been the opposite, in fact.

I don't have any strong opinions about covid now that we have vaccines. I would point out only that, if you ignore whiny conservative tears, mask mandates have zero economic cost. It's mind boggling to me that conservatives who claim to be pro business have any objection to them. They're dumb sometimes - what, I wear a mask to a table and then take it off? But otherwise they make sense, cost next to nothing, and are a legit alternative to closing everything down. The biggest tragedy of this whole disaster is how irrational the conservative side of the discussion has been.

[Kanyewest]

Not saying you're wrong Dat. I'm saying I can smell crazy and you reek. Whether you're right about covid is the least thing I'm worried about. Who cares? By now we all know better than to listen to each others crazy rantings about covid.

It's just if I had a big sign saying "I'm a crazy person" taped to my back I'd want someone to tell me. Is the sign true? That's your problem to deal with.

The people I lead at work & those I mentor outside of it would challenge that demonstratively. Zonkerbl & Ruzious on realgm calling me crazy & telling me how clueless I am doesn't really resonate or bother me. It just tests my ability to respond appropriately and not fire back with heat seeking soul chrushing missles as I would often do in my younger days.

UK has decided to treat Covid like the flu and repealed all mandates. More european countries and Japan are considering this. Hell the NFL just said screw it and stopped testing unvaxxed players. I guess they are ALL crazy too. Or maybe they are realists. You can't magically vaccine the omnicron variant out of existence. You certainly can't stop the spread with the vax. You guys talking points are outdated.

Looks like Japan is actually increasing restrictions at this point in time as they had 50,000 infections.

Tokyo and 12 other prefectures were added on Friday, now allowing their governors to ask restaurants and bars to close early and stop or limit the serving of alcohol. Several more areas have officially sought or are preparing to seek similar requests.

Okayama Prefecture in western Japan said Saturday it has asked the central government to place it under such a measure, meaning 30 prefectures would be subject to a quasi-state of emergency.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2022/01/c1ced975d81e-urgent-tokyos-daily-covid-19-cases-top-10000-for-1st-time-hit-record-high.html?

[Pointgod]

Here’s some data from U.K. regarding vaccine effectiveness. It’s pretty straight forward that in all age groups vaccines reduced hospitalizations and death. Get vaxxed.

Read on Twitter

The UK also has like 70-80% of the population that’s double vaccinated and close to 50% boosted. Using logic, one would assume that those high rates are leading to the removal of restrictions, not because vaccines don’t work. You can’t apply the same logic to the US with much lower vaccination rates.

And what Boris Johnson is doing is a political gamble by removing all restrictions he’s assuming that cases won’t increase or another variant won’t take hold. It’s purely a face saving measure his own party was caught numerous times violating COVID restrictions. Again it’s laughable that the same posters who don’t trust the government now all of a sudden trust them because it reinforces their narrative.