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What is up with him? How come he isn't doing what i've seen him be capable of? Its like he's being too passive, and just settles for jumpers now....I mean im pretty sure the other team respects his jumper. Now why doesn't he take it to the rack. He still gets the same amount of touches, just always gives it up if he can't get up his jumper, and goes back to the perimeter.

Also when he was here was he the same when they made him play the 2? hmm maybe he just wasn't cut out to play the SG position.....

He's realy only had one good game which was the one against Portland where we still lost.

Well thanks, if you have a chance to reply to my thread...

Caron taking mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper and missing point blank layups are the two things that make me not miss him at all. That agonizing pump fake before EVERY shot he takes, even when wide open, will not be missed by many Wiz fans.

I said this when I read they were moving him to the two. He is not a shooting guard. He's a small forward through and through, and I am not surprised to hear and see that he is struggling. He's been struggling for the last two years.

And I'm not sure why Haywood is splitting time with Erik Dampier. Haywood needs 30+ minutes to be effective. I'm just surprised by how both guys are being coached.

Add his jab step to the punk fake in terms of moves not to be missed. He seemed passive around here the past couple years as well, but I attributed it to either we were pitiful and he lost hope and energy as a result or without Gil around as a threat he didn't find as much room to operate. Maybe I was wrong.

He never seemed to cut it here as a 2 either, he seems to be a more natural SF. But hey, at least you picked up a natural shooting guard in DSteve, eh??

Rafael122 wrote:
And I'm not sure why Haywood is splitting time with Erik Dampier. Haywood needs 30+ minutes to be effective. I'm just surprised by how both guys are being coached.

I'm kind of happy about that. Let Haywood go into hibernation and see if we can't resign him without blowing a wad this offseason.

At this point, I'm thinking he just is what he is, and this isn't some sort of extended funk that he's going to shake out of. Let's face it, he's 30 years old and has had a slew of injuries that have to add up over the years. Not everyone ages gracefully; some can drop way down in just a year or two.

Something to consider: while this year's drop from last may seem extreme, it's worth noting that many of us felt that Butler was not as good last year as his raw numbers may lead you to believe. He was still an effective player, but not a legit all-star like two years ago. So, over the course of three years, he went from all-star to above average starter to below average starter, as he aged from 28 to 29 to 30. A lot of guys will stretch that kind of drop out over say five years instead of three, but many of them wouldn't have Caron's injury history.

Not saying things couldn't be improved some, if he were used more at SF (he's really not a SG at all), maybe with a bit more time working to get some bad habits out of his system. But even then, we're only talking about making him better than he is now, not as good as he was at his best. You say that he isn't doing what he's capable of; I say that we probably need to change our perception of exactly what it is that he is capable of.

MJG wrote: You say that he isn't doing what he's capable of; I say that we probably need to change our perception of exactly what it is that he is capable of.

+1

MJG wrote:At this point, I'm thinking he just is what he is, and this isn't some sort of extended funk that he's going to shake out of. Let's face it, he's 30 years old and has had a slew of injuries that have to add up over the years. Not everyone ages gracefully; some can drop way down in just a year or two.

Something to consider: while this year's drop from last may seem extreme, it's worth noting that many of us felt that Butler was not as good last year as his raw numbers may lead you to believe. He was still an effective player, but not a legit all-star like two years ago. So, over the course of three years, he went from all-star to above average starter to below average starter, as he aged from 28 to 29 to 30. A lot of guys will stretch that kind of drop out over say five years instead of three, but many of them wouldn't have Caron's injury history.

Also if you go back and look at his career when he was younger, he did not seem like anything special before it all came together for him with the Wizards. I think he is struggling to adapt his game to deal with his declining athleticism. I think he forces a lot of plays that he could finish in his prime.

I was among the people that thought Butler had a good and short contract and hadn't declined so much that there was a great rush to trade him.

If it really is a decline, one that was showing itself last year and earlier this year, it's another errant choice by EG and management, considering past trade offers involving Butler. On the other hand, maybe the decline that had been not-so-obvious suddenly became so obvious that the trade to Dallas amounted to a coup of sorts for EG.

I think the game is passing him athletically. He is strong but not long. He was never super athletic and with all the length in the league combined with his past injuries, he gets lost in the trees when if he goes to the rim, so he doesn't go.

montestewart wrote:On the other hand, maybe the decline that had been not-so-obvious suddenly became so obvious that the trade to Dallas amounted to a coup of sorts for EG.

It would have been a coup if the Haywood/Gooden part wasn't incorporated into the deal.

nate33 wrote:

montestewart wrote:On the other hand, maybe the decline that had been not-so-obvious suddenly became so obvious that the trade to Dallas amounted to a coup of sorts for EG.

It would have been a coup if the Haywood/Gooden part wasn't incorporated into the deal.

I still think the Wizards should have gotten a pick absed on the perceived values at the time, but in the unlikely event they somehow manage to sign Haywood in the offseason, and they resign Howard to a 2-year deal for $6-7 million and he shows what he showed before his injury, and Butler's decline continues and accelerates (I know that's a lot of ifs) I would look back and think they did alright.

nate33 wrote:

montestewart wrote:On the other hand, maybe the decline that had been not-so-obvious suddenly became so obvious that the trade to Dallas amounted to a coup of sorts for EG.

It would have been a coup if the Haywood/Gooden part wasn't incorporated into the deal.

I still say the key factor there was the improbability of our
being able to re-sign Wood. I think GMEG saw the writing on
the wall there and so we really only lost him for a couple
month before we woulda lost him for nothing anyway. And
in the meantime, we lose more and McGee plays more.

Sometimes losing a player for nothing is better than gift-wrapping him to the opposition.

Doesn't bode so well for future trades when Ernie has made it apparent he's will to be bent over in any deal.

Even if we knew we couldn't have resigned Haywood, we still should have used him as an asset in a separate trade. Somebody like Portland, San Antonio or OKC would surely have given us something in return for him.

But that's water under the bridge. I do agree with the basic premise that Caron Butler wasn't as valuable as we thought, and losing him isn't such a big blow after all.

I think too many people here are reading it wrong. Once Caron Butler got injured he stopped being the player that he was a few years ago. I didn't really follow Caron Butler that much. But I would think he's more athletic in the past because that was before he was injured. You have to keep in mind taht he was injured a while ago, and, he kept on getting hurt. Something like that. So I thought he was getting better by his last few games with us... that game with the Magic he played in he looked like an all-star. But... he just struggles sometimes. He's probably just struggling to get used to the system. I guess.

Honestly I don't think there's anything wrong athletically with Caron.

it's been mentioned but understated...

CARON BUTLER CANNOT PLAY SHOOTING GUARD!!!

He never was an SG. He played it a bit last season and struggled mightly before moving back to SF. Athletically he's always been a 3. He's quick enough to take SFs off the dribble but not quick enough to take quicker guards off the dribble. Thus, he's forced to be jump shooter at the SG position b/c his ability to create is neutralized.

Caron is also a creature of habit. The straw chewing. The mountain dew. The useless pump fake.

He picked up a LOT of bad habits in DC, and he may be having some serious difficulty ridding himself of them in Dallas.