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Some people want to lump Gil in with the guys who got traded but I still sepearate them. Now you are watching these guys on there other teams and I think its clear that Gil wasnt the reason why we were bad. Wood has been solid in Dallas but alot of people are starting to turn on him and think that he's hardly any different than Dampier. He's also been benched for Dampier. Then Caron has been so average. He looks exactly like he did on our team this year, like he's regressed alot. IDK if its the weight loss or what. Some of it is the fact that he didnt fit Flip's 1st system and he's playing the 2 in Dallas but its still more than that. He seems so limited. Then Dallas just benched him for the whole 2nd half of the critical 3rd playoff game at home for JJ Barrera. How insulting is that?

Then you have AJ who's been ok but Ive watched alot of there games and he still should be doing more for how many open looks he's getting. One thing that really upsets me is that you can tell he's trying really hard to play team ball and stay in the concept of the team but on the Wiz all he did was try to gun and had turned into a black hole. You can say its because the Cavs are better with more talent but AJ's play was easily hurting our team more than helping with his selfish play. Honestly, when I watch him now, I hate it. I cant believe we had him playing 40 with Blatche sitting on the bench. He seems so undersized, stiff leg, he shoots that bad quick J while fading to the left, he throws up those floaters, and his whole game just looks so gimmicky to me. Id much rather have Dray's size, ability to score in the post in a real way, passing ability, and unselfish play. AJ still plays with energy but thats the only thing he has over Dray right now.

Thats why I cant put Gil in with those guys. Caron tried to keep hinting at Gil wasnt passing him the ball anymore and so on but he's not that good anymore and has no handles. You got him on one side & the black hole, meaningless points guy on the other. All AJ's points are always meaningless. Then Wood is good but he will always just have that ceiling on him. Even when McGee sucks he still puts up better numbers than Wood in less minutes. Then Wood was the slowest finisher in the league. I just think the team was truly better after the trades and may have won alot of games if Howard didnt go down. I then think that the system change really helped, and I truly believe that Gil can play with our new roster & new system way better. I think it was the other guys that killed us but people blame Gil the most and act like the others were great because they were "true pros".

Maybe its just me but thats how I see it and when I see Caron, AJ, and Wood on the other teams, I dont feel bad. I feel glad that they are gone when I watch them play. You can still make a case for us keeping Wood but Im so glad the other 2 are gone and I didnt wan to give Wood another contract at the end of the year so he needed to go also. With that being said, I still wouldnt be shocked if the Cavs & Mavs went far, espically the Cavs. I still think all 3 guys can help there teams and AJ would matchup really well against the Magic but I think its still clear that we are better without them and they were more of the problem than Gil

Both AJ and Caron are 4th option scorers at best on good teams. Considering that their defense is below average, and jamison's is atrocious, I think it's definitely fair to call them average players--which is what I said when the trades went down. They're average players who dont play team ball. Adition by subtraction for the wizards IMO.

The problem was that Gilbert was confused as the point in Flip's offense, he was making the kind of mental errors he hadn't made since his first year. On top of that, Caron was still trying to be the number one option even when his game had regressed. Jamison was always a chucker on the Wizards.

I think the big thing is that Gilbert was clearly getting better as the season went on. I believe his December numbers were 25ppg/8 assists per game. I mean those are crazy good numbers for his second month back.

My opinion on Gil's game hasn't changed. I believe when completely healthy, Gilbert Arenas is a huge net positive for any team's offense. All the selfish chucker talk is for fans of other teams to hate on Gil. In 06-07, his plus minus numbers were crazy, even with horrible defense, his impact on the offense made up for it. That's the Gil I would love to see back.

Shanghai Kid wrote:I think the big thing is that Gilbert was clearly getting better as the season went on. I believe his December numbers were 25ppg/8 assists per game. I mean those are crazy good numbers for his second month back.

My opinion on Gil's game hasn't changed. I believe when completely healthy, Gilbert Arenas is a huge net positive for any team's offense. All the selfish chucker talk is for fans of other teams to hate on Gil. In 06-07, his plus minus numbers were crazy, even with horrible defense, his impact on the offense made up for it. That's the Gil I would love to see back.

The more I think about this, the more excited I get about next season. I've moved beyond the feeling that we have to dump Gil at all costs because he'd be a bad influence on a rebuilding team. As nate has continuously said - Gil, Blatche, and the right lotto pick forms the foundation for a contender. Depending on where the superstars go in the offseason, the Wizards could be a move or two away from being very competitive next season.

I agree and I think he will be even better next year with Flip's new offense. People love Shaun and I do too but they act like Shaun did so much better than Gil when Shaun himself sucked or was average in Flip's 1st offense. It wasnt until Flip changed it that Shaun took off and Shaun said that himself. Add to that the fact that in all of pro sports everyone says that you arent back to as good as you can be until your 2nd year from the injury. I think mentally & physically Gil will be alot better on that knee, will be alot better in Flip's new system, and will be alot better with our new players than the guys we had 1st

VictorPage44 wrote:Both AJ and Caron are 4th option scorers at best on good teams. Considering that their defense is below average, and jamison's is atrocious, I think it's definitely fair to call them average players--which is what I said when the trades went down. They're average players who dont play team ball. Adition by subtraction for the wizards IMO.

But AJ's the 2nd option on probably the best team in the NBA...

willbcocks wrote:

VictorPage44 wrote:Both AJ and Caron are 4th option scorers at best on good teams. Considering that their defense is below average, and jamison's is atrocious, I think it's definitely fair to call them average players--which is what I said when the trades went down. They're average players who dont play team ball. Adition by subtraction for the wizards IMO.

But AJ's the 2nd option on probably the best team in the NBA...

Mo Williams disagrees.

^

The cavs are the best team in the league because of lebron. Then they have mo williams. At best, Jamison is amongst the third tier on that team with shaq and delonte---in my estimation both of whom get more plays run for them than jamison.

The only reason Mo is the 2nd option on Cleveland is seniority as a Cav. The reason Shaq gets more touches, especially first quarter touches than Jamison, is strategic. They want to draws fouls on the opposing center amongst other things. Also, Shaq is selfish and attention seeking. You can tell that by the way he celebrates when he scores. He is morphing into a charicature. Jamison should be the 2nd option on Cleveland.

Butler is slowing down to his previous injuries and age as he was never the greatest athlete. He was athletic enough but never the greatest and as he ages, the game is passing him by.

Haywood is a glorified Dampier. Longer but not as strong. Limited offensively. Now he is playing against Duncan and his mates inside who are near his size too and he can't rely on his "length" advantage as much, so he gets exposed.

All have to fit into new teams with new roles, so them not looking like they did at the best in a wizard uniform should be expected.

LyricalRico wrote:

Shanghai Kid wrote:I think the big thing is that Gilbert was clearly getting better as the season went on. I believe his December numbers were 25ppg/8 assists per game. I mean those are crazy good numbers for his second month back.

My opinion on Gil's game hasn't changed. I believe when completely healthy, Gilbert Arenas is a huge net positive for any team's offense. All the selfish chucker talk is for fans of other teams to hate on Gil. In 06-07, his plus minus numbers were crazy, even with horrible defense, his impact on the offense made up for it. That's the Gil I would love to see back.

The more I think about this, the more excited I get about next season. I've moved beyond the feeling that we have to dump Gil at all costs because he'd be a bad influence on a rebuilding team. As nate has continuously said - Gil, Blatche, and the right lotto pick forms the foundation for a contender. Depending on where the superstars go in the offseason, the Wizards could be a move or two away from being very competitive next season.

change that to Gil, 7DD, lotto pick AND SL, and I'm totally with you.
SL would be superfluous if we ended up getting Wall or Turner, but
not if we wind up with one of the bigs (cuz/fav/Monroe, or Johnson)

Bump

Caron & Wood were so average since the trade and in the playoffs. Caron basically said that Gil wasnt passing him the ball and he was holding him back but he played the same exact way in Dallas during the season and the playoffs. Wood was the same guy who is just the same solid Wood. One game he looks like the best defender in the league and the next game he gives up layup after layup while putting up his same modest numbers that average player get. He's good but his ceiling is where its been for the last 2 years and thats just not special. Now look, I know that the Blatche-KG thing was the regular season and playoffs are a different game but still. You cannot tell me that that Blatche wouldnt have matched up way better with KG than AJ did. AJ got destroyed by KG after KG was getting lit up by Blatche.

Dray could guard him and score on him all day while AJ was getting lit up both ways. His game is so sickening to watch now with his runners, flip shots, and horrible shot selection. Then on D you might as well forget it. Again, there is no way you can put Gil in that boat. These are the guys that were holding us back, along with DS. The only guy you could argue to keep was Wood but he's going to want money at the end of the year and I wouldnt pay his ass nothing anyways. We are much better with Gil, Blatche, and whoever.




PS- On a side note, its the 1st time Ive ever thought it was possible but is it 100% crazy to think that Lebron would conisder us? I mean a finally healthy Gil, with a young stud in Blatche, McGee should be very good in 2 years, we have Flip as our coach, and Leonsis as the new Owner. DC isnt a mega market but its solid and every athelete loves living here. I think we could really be a darkhorse, espically with a high draft pick. The Bulls are the same team as always. Im sick of all there hype. Everyone talks about them every year like they are the Lakers and they never even get out the 1st round. Rose & Noah dont make everything perfect. ****, Id rather have Gil & Dray if I was Lebron, espically if you add Livingston, Thorton, the pick, and another solid vet. I think we could be very good. Dont get me wrong, I know its probably never going to happened but this is the 1st time I ever even considered it.

I never thought he would give us a 2nd look but I think we look as good as anyone else who has money and Lebron knows that Gil will be his most healthy next year, espically if he looks good when they play together in the Offseason and Dray would easily get 20 with Lebron on the floor. He would have the help. I am also for the 1st time thinking though that Lebron & Wade would really consider teaming up in NY the way both of there seasons just ended. I think both guys are scared to tackle NY alone even with another big time player but with eachother they would feel like they could beat anybody. Bottom line though, this team is better with those trades and its clear that those guys hurt us way more than Gil

How good are the trades making EG look right now?

wow, the Cavs have AJ on the books for 13.5 next year and 15 the year after. Man Im glad we dont have to deal with that. Antwan Jamison aka The greatest leader of men. He probably will look better next year though "If" Lebron stays. I think they should just let both Shaq & Z walk. They are both too old now and AV & Hickson are the better fits. Put them with AJ in a 3 man rotation with Lebron and I think thats solid. You lose alot of size but I think they have a better chance of advancing like that

hermitkid wrote:How good are the trades making EG look right now?

As someone who has ranked on EG endlessly, thought (and still think) he could have gotten more for Haywood, and fear what he might do in the draft and with off season trades and FA signings (especially overbidding against himself), I've got to admit, these playoffs have made his deadline trades look pretty darn good.

Not to say that Arenas is Steve Nash, but it's been noted that people have career years playing next to him (I think Haywood helped Butler's and Jamison's rebounding too). Gil's still here, and maybe we can now see if the "Big-3" is really just a result of scorers playing with Arenas. An ideal next year would be a team of eleven players that were at least partially defensive-minded, all of them slowly rubbing off on Arenas, and his shoot/dish/drive game improving the scoring opportunities for all his teammates.

hermitkid wrote:How good are the trades making EG look right now?

Sold off when their value was at near rock-bottom, and even then didn't get enough for them. A good GM would've seen just how limited the ceiling was for the Wizards with those players and would've traded them last offseason. I'm sorry, but for a GM to dump players after the ship capsized and heading for the ocean floor does not deserve kudos from me.

Have to agree with Wizstorm and the statement from Ted pretty much sealed EG's fate in my book with all that talk about developing young talent and (and not trading the #5 pick for two guys you let go the following year). Don't worry haters, Ted will do the right thing and flush the toilet on the EG era.

But in EGs defense, he wasn't bad, just mediocre. So he made some bad moves but he made some good ones too. In retrospect, one of the best was trading AJ to Cleveland where he's now on their books for 2 more years and we got a #30 pick in return!!! Win-win

And on the thread topic, these trades absolutely made Agent Zero (defense) look very good. Gil was always great, the question isn't Gil's talents or abilities, its the health of his knee.

just to get in before the EG Slurp Machine (Rico), i'd like to add that it was also EG who signed AJ to his last contract that we're all so happy to be rid of now.

not defending ernie in the least, as i am a firm believer in evaluating managers based on end results, but one has to wonder how many of those decisions (continuity, contracts, etc.) were driven by pollin though.

re: gil, i just think there is too much bad blood there. the organization shunned him after the whole incident and, if i was he, i'd be holding a huge grudge against it.

granted, its a new ownership, possibly new gm, but his brand (swag, glibertology, quirkiness) will never be restored here. the fanbase has become uninvolved and, i believe, the feeling is mutual.

i can imagine a situation where he will be driven to display his newfound maturity. but the natural question that has to be asked is - why would he do it in dc? a new setting would be most conducive to new beginnings.

well in regards to me, this wasnt about EG at all. I was just speaking strictly about Gil on the court. I think the other guys hurt us way more than him. However, I do disagree with all the EG hate. I think he's been pretty solid for the most part even though some of his best stuff has happened by luck