Shaun Livingston

[dmutombo321]

Just wanted to get you guys' assessment on his game. He looks like he finished the season strong last year. Any glaring limitations visable from the knee injury?

[Kanyewest]

Good signing for the Bobcats. He became a very efficient scorer as the season closed. He even was able to knock down his jumper with some consistency. Very good courtvision and was able to progress once Flip changed up the offense.

Of course, there was some bad, most notably on the defensive end. He had trouble staying in front of quicker guards, and can't really guard shooting guards despite his height. He's not going to knock down 3 pointers. But 2 years $7 million, MJ actually got a bargain.

[Spence]

Signing Shaun Livingston proves Michael Jordan is capable of making a good personnel decision. If he stays healthy Livingston is a bargain at that price. Livingston played in 26 games for the Wizards last year, starting 18 of them. He shot 54% from the field and 88% from the charity stripe and averaged 4.5 dimes against less than 2 turnovers in over 25 minutes per game. He averaged 9.2 points per game.

[MJG]

If you get the Livingston that we did for the last two weeks of the season, then you have one of the best three or four or so bargain contracts in the league. He was that good.

If you get the Livingston who hasn't even even been able to play half of his possible career NBA games, then you've got a bit of a dud contract on the books, albeit for only a couple of years. No biggie.

If you get something in between, a relatively healthy Livingston who's going to play at say 75% of his potential night-in-night-out rather than the 110% we saw from him, then you got a solid rotation player on a nice contract. You'll be happy with him here.

I'd call the move medium-risk, high-reward. Very solid move, all in all.

[Gilfanatic123]

I'm going to have to agree with MJG. The Shaun Livingston at the end of the season as proving that he could still go out there and play in the NBA. I'm not too familiar with the guy myself, but, he'll drive to the whole. He's a great passer. He can score. I think he'll give you what you need.

[TheGreatWall]

Sad he's gone. One of the most solid point guards in the league.

[BigSlam]

Hi fella's,

What is he like as a team mate? How does he carry himself on the court? How did he relate to someone like Blatche?

The reason I ask is that we have some strong personalities in Jax, Crash and Tyrus and was wondering if he is a floor general? You know, the type who will direct guys, bring them together to regroup, keep their heads straight, direct traffic, be vocal etc or is he more the "passenger" type?

Thanks in advance.

[WizStorm]

Definitely more of a "cool as a cucumber" type than an actual floor leader.

[Benjammin]

^^^^

I think he had a very positive influence on his teammates on the court. He seemed confident and assertive enough in directing players to spots on the court without being overbearing. He's not going to be especially vocal, but his body language exudes calm and confidence. Livingston's height, vision, and instincts are a nice combination to have.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Sometimes in life I've missed the most obvious, simple detail. I think EG has done the same thing in not re-signing Livingston and also last season by not committing to Alonzo Gee.

All this talk about MJ as a bad GM doesn't stand up when you look at Stephen Jackson getting them to the playoffs last season. I don't think MJ is all that bad a GM. Okafor was no world beater and Chandler is damaged goods, most likely. The Bobcats free up $12.7M and get a trade exception from that and now they've got a great find in Livingston if he can stay healthy.

I like the Wizards new players, but man I would love this roster with Livingston at 3.5M for 2 seasons instead of Kirk. Wizards could have made that happen. Oh, well.

[jimij]

Not necessarily CCJ. If the money was equal I'd have to believe that Livingston would choose the Bobcats every single time. Even without Hinrich, he'd still have to deal with Wall and Arenas ahead of him at the point. In Charlotte, all he's got to do is beat out DJ Augustin who Charlotte is clearly not in love with. The chance to be a starter versus being a definitive backup to Wall wins out every time.

I'd love to have kept him but unless we were ready to out bid other offers, I think he would go where he can play regardless of the Hinrich deal. He was basically gone the minute we won the lottery IMO.

[Benjammin]

^^^^

I think once the Wizards won the lottery and it was clear that Wall would be the pick, and with Gil returning, it became very difficult to expect to re-sign Shaun. How many minutes at the point would really be available to him? In Charlotte he has a real shot at starting. So, while I'd love to slam EG for this, I don't think it's really fair.

[dnk]

^^^^

I think once the Wizards won the lottery and it was clear that Wall would be the pick, and with Gil returning, it became very difficult to expect to re-sign Shaun. How many minutes at the point would really be available to him? In Charlotte he has a real shot at starting. So, while I'd love to slam EG for this, I don't think it's really fair.

I totally agree. There just aren't enough minutes for a guy like him trying to make a comeback and be a difference maker.

We can slam EG for some things, but you gotta remember that he took a flier on Livingston in the first place.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

^^^^

I think once the Wizards won the lottery and it was clear that Wall would be the pick, and with Gil returning, it became very difficult to expect to re-sign Shaun. How many minutes at the point would really be available to him? In Charlotte he has a real shot at starting. So, while I'd love to slam EG for this, I don't think it's really fair.

jimij and Ben, I see your point about Shaun wanting the opportunity he wouldn't get with Wall. It's about the minutes.

I'm just curious about Hinrich's opportunity and Hinrich's minutes, when he's owed $17Mil the next two seasons. What concerns me is value and return and I'm not seeing it possible with Hinrich. I think Livingston was terrific for what Flip ran this past season. That is like a bird in the hand. You might even consider paying him 4Mil for two seasons, if that's all it takes to keep him. Shaun would play behind Wall for more money IMO.

My real worry about Livingston was his knees and possible reinjury. The gamble is what MJ took. If healthy, Livingston's probably worth twice what the Bobcats paid for him.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Big picture: I am happy things worked out for Shaun Livingston.

Wall's going to be good.

[BigSlam]

Thanks WizStorm and Benjammin. Appreciate the feedback.

[Consiglieri81]

It's got to be one of the biggest disappointments of the offseason that we lost him. At least in my view. That's how much of a deal I think you guys got in him. We didn't have him for a few weeks, if i recall correctly we had him for about six weeks and he got better, and better, and better as those weeks wore on despite player after player going down with injury (on a team that had already shipped out 3 of its best 4 players already).

Wall may have saved what could have been an agonizing offseason as Livingston appeared absolutely disinterested in any hometown discount, or any sense that the wiz held any advantage as his first choice. I wanted Livingston back in the worst way, and I wanted him back even w/Wall in the fold.

I think it's probably a truism that Livingston will never again be what he could have been pre-injury. However, the key is, Livingston was, and is a legit starting point guard in this league and he wasn't an embarrassment or a make do option either. The team should have been absolutely wretched after the trade deadline, but instead, their winning percentage only dropped overall from something on the order of .325 pre trade, to about .275 after trade, despite several guys going down after the trade including the key player in it.

I would have loved to have landed him for our backup, as is, he's a great asset to have around for you guys. When he got starters minutes what were his numbers? 16 and 6 or something like that? He put up good numbers, and was a good guy. I do think he's rediscovered his game. He's a legit talent. He'll never be a start, but at 7 mill for two years, you've found yourself a starter who can produce in this league, and he showed he could do it on a team w/absolutely nothing in terms of talent around him. If he can do that for us, he can certainly do it for you. I think it's a great signing, to be honest, i think it's about 100x better than our deals for Yi, Armstrong, and the rest of the trash we brought in this offseason. The guys we brought in in terms of vets are what they are, either overpaid, and not all that, or non-entities with no chance of really becoming much of anything anyway. Livingston is not that, he's a hungry player who showed from late Feb through the end of the season that he can play in the NBA and produce, if he gets his minutes.

Great signing, and I'll miss him, would kill to have him around instead of Arenas and his albatross contract, c'est la vie, we've got to unload one more stupid arse contract. All things considered that's not too bad. 2 or 3 years ago we had 5 moronic contracts that seemed impossible to unload, cutting it down to one isn't so bad.

[Consiglieri81]

Big picture: I am happy things worked out for Shaun Livingston.

Wall's going to be good.

It's kind of a stupid thing to flesh out in my head, because its a genuine struggle to figure out how to explain it, but I totally agree w/what you said earlier CCJ. In a weird way, it was an absolute killer that if this draft was going to have a blue chip superstud #1, and we landed the pick, and we did, the worst possible position for that stud to play was PG. We already had Arenas, and we'd just discovered a hidden gem in Livingston. now, I'll totally grant that Livingston is probably at best, only an average positional starter for a team going forward. Not an all star, not an alternate, just an average starter, maybe borderline starter. But so what, we found him, we lucked into landing a guy that would be enormously cheap, and a huge case of very low risk, and enormous pay off in terms of value for the deal in him.

But because of us landing the #1 overall pick, all the luck we got in landing, and getting value in Livingston was flushed down the toilet and of absolutely no use to us. In a strange way, it would have been almost better to have landed the 3 pick, and favors and had Livngston too. I know there is a huge level of crazyness in saying that. But To actually discover huge value like this, the kind of value that is what makes a team much better than it was destined to be, and not be able to utilize it sucks. Livingston was a huge find, and in the end, because of the albatross of the Arenas deal, and maybe because of starters minutes, we lost him.

Its not like getting Wall isn't worthy of solace, it's probably going to transform the future of the team going forward, but to think that EG couldn't get out of his own way in terms of trying to get Livingston locked in in a nice deal is beyond frustrating. How we could have Livingston, and not see the value, but go drooling all over Hinrich, Yi, and Armstrong is very frustrating. It's also a little frustrating knowing that while Leonsis is a good owner, he's probably a little too loyal (not crazy loyal like Abe was, but still too loyal), GMGM got a ton of rope for a guy who accomplished nada from '99-'02, was allowed to do the rebuild starting in '02, and continue the rebuild despite some massive screw ups along the way. Granted things started paying off by about '06/''07, when it was clear that we got an absolute stud in Backstrom, and more in Green, and Carlson, and Semin, and hell even Fehr started to develop, but for a good five years, it looked like despite authoring the rebuild for five years, there was little sign he'd accomplished much of anything despite loads of huge trades in February, and some high draft picks in most years. Even now he hasn't gotten a single successful draft pick outside of round 1. Still Leonsis is very loyal. EG may end up getting the same rope and it's a huge mistake. I remain, largely convinced that EG is pretty danm good draft day, and this is hugely underrated for our fanbase and puzzingly so considering how much i see him bashed in here. Has everyone forgot the miserable series of pathetic draft picks once the lottery started ages ago? Granted we always got hosed and were perpetually screwed over in lottery after lottery but even so we were never, ever, ever landing those gems found outside of blue chip 1-2-3 territory. We were always landing stiffs, or at best rotational guys, we were Clippers/Warriors East, or maybe they were Bullets/Wizards West. EG has had quite a few decent discoveries here, as well as in the past in other destinations outside of blue chip territory. Indeed outside of some obvious franchises that are geniuses outside of the blue chip zone (San Antonio is definitely one), EG is certainly top 5-10 in terms of unearthing talent in the mid first through the late second.

That's my main concern right now, that we've got a GM who will totally botch this rebuild. Wish we could just put EG in charge of draft day, and somebody else in charge of free agency and all trades and contracts.

Forgive the long tirade, Im just a little frustrated that we didn't work harder on livingston, and that we couldnt find a way to keep him, he was a hugely valuable discovery who we ended up getting zero value out of long term. We can't afford to have that happen even once more during this rebuild. Maximizing returns and minimizing mistakes is how it will happen, or not happen. Hopefully losing him is the last of the mistakes (i tend to view the trade up for booker is another one though hope he proves me dead wrong).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Consiglieri, the signings of Armstrong, Yi, and the trade for Hinrich have me sharing your concern about the GM.

Livingston should have been offered a deal, regardless. Even if the initial offer was 5-6 Mi. No way on earth do I like Armstong. Wasted signing. Seems to me that EG really only bounced back because of the #1 overall. He could have done more with the picks he had as well. I just hope like heck Seraphin is the real deal and he actually plays well this season.

Otherwise, Wall just fell in his lap and Booker's simply a nice player. I like (edited) EG's apparent draft theme of having rugged, athletic types with high motors; but I would rather have had Livingston back if at all possible.

Consiglieri, I think you're right to be going on and on. Shaun IMO could have been the PG/SG or SF off the bench.

[Benjammin]

Consiglieri, the signings of Armstrong, Yi, and the trade for Hinrich have me sharing your concern about the GM.

Livingston should have been offered a deal, regardless. Even if the initial offer was 5-6 Mi. No way on earth do I like Armstong. Wasted signing. Seems to me that EG really only bounced back because of the #1 overall. He could have done more with the picks he had as well. I just hope like heck Seraphin is the real deal and he actually plays well this season.

Otherwise, Wall just fell in his lap and Booker's simply a nice player. I liked the early them of having rugged, athletic types with high motors; but I would rather have had Livingston back if at all possible.

Consiglieri, I think you're right to be going on and on. Shaun IMO could have been the PG/SG or SF off the bench.

Let's be clear about one thing: Shaun Livingston is not a SF. If the ball is not in his hands, you're wasting his talents. Even as a point forward, he's not a good fit. The Wizards never had the inside track on Livingston. They gave him a chance, he played well, but he had no loyalty or strong connection with the Wizards. I totally understand liking his game and wanting to get a good player at a good price. But let's say the Wizards had picked third and taken Cousins. Do you think Livingston would have been excited at playing 14 minutes a game behind Arenas? You could argue he would get more time with Gil playing the 2, but the reality even in that scenario Shaun would have had better options than the Wizards. Is it easier to beat out DJ Augustin or Gil Arenas for playing time?