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I know Arenas was the best Wizard pre-knee-injury. But he never played with a playoff caliber post player. One that the defense needs to respect.

When was the last time a team with a post player the quality of Haywood, Etan, or Michael Ruffin did anything significant in the playoffs? I guess you can say Dallas with Dampier did ok, but that squad had more overall talent than Arenas' Wizards. Haywood looked like he shot the ball with his eyes closed, and both he and Etan were black holes.

Remember Jeffries, Jarvis, Calvin Booth, Donnell Taylor, Ramos, Kwame, Juan? Daniels was ok. Remember Deshawn? He was 50/50 because they were not defending him.

What did you expect those teams to do?

Brenice wrote:I know Arenas was the best Wizard pre-knee-injury. But he never played with a playoff caliber post player. One that the defense needs to respect.

When was the last time a team with a post player the quality of Haywood, Etan, or Michael Ruffin did anything significant in the playoffs? I guess you can say Dallas with Dampier did ok, but that squad had more overall talent than Arenas' Wizards. Haywood looked like he shot the ball with his eyes closed, and both he and Etan were black holes.

Remember Jeffries, Jarvis, Calvin Booth, Donnell Taylor, Ramos, Kwame, Juan? Daniels was ok. Remember Deshawn? He was 50/50 because they were not defending him.

What did you expect those teams to do?

What is your point?

^
One possible point is that the lack of post presence might be taken into account when criticizing Arenas for never leading a team far into the playoffs.

In today's game, a post player can actually do more harm than good to an offense that relies on penetration - because of the rule changes several years ago that benefit players who drive the lane. Post players clog the middle and draw defenders toward the middle. That's one reason Shaq wasn't a good fit with Lebron, and Brand hasn't been a good fit with Iggy. Otoh, if you have a bunch of 3 point shooters, a post player is invaluable drawing double teams - see Magic, Orlando.

^
True, especially the really lumbering post players. I like the Orlando model when it works, and was briefly deluded into thinking that Arenas, Stevenson, Butler, and Jamison, complemented by an agile low post presence, might use that as a model.

Ruzious wrote:In today's game, a post player can actually do more harm than good to an offense that relies on penetration - because of the rule changes several years ago that benefit players who drive the lane. Post players clog the middle and draw defenders toward the middle. That's one reason Shaq wasn't a good fit with Lebron, and Brand hasn't been a good fit with Iggy. Otoh, if you have a bunch of 3 point shooters, a post player is invaluable drawing double teams - see Magic, Orlando.

Come on now, you should know better than that. Shaq is a shell of himself and him playing sure didn't hinder Kobe and Wade.

What you are saying is that it is better to not have a post player at all, and last I knew, Boston has KG posting up. Duncan posts up. Gasol posts up. Shaq posted up. Dwight posts up. Boozer posted up for Utah. What did Chicago sign him to do?

Washington had Haywood posting up. Etan posting up. Even if they weren't fed the ball, they were on the court. They sure weren't hanging on the perimeter like Manute Bol did as a GS Warrior.

montestewart wrote:^
True, especially the really lumbering post players. I like the Orlando model when it works, and was briefly deluded into thinking that Arenas, Stevenson, Butler, and Jamison, complemented by an agile low post presence, might use that as a model.

But that is the same problem. They didn't have that agile post either. Haywood is poorly coordinated, hence he is barely athletic enough to catch oops, which were rare sights. Defenses can't leave JaVale because of the oop-threat alone. So that wasn't even a threat. You gave Haywood/Etan the ball and they worked their way into awkard shots, and are not passing threats from the post either, something Blatche is good at. They have no court vision or awareness.

The Wizards had nothing in the post that concerned any team. In fact, you did the opposing team a favor when you fed the post.

Celtics won with Kendrick Perkins in the middle. It's arguable that KG was their post threat, but KG has been more of a mid-range guy for a long time.

When the Ben Wallace Pistons won, who was the post threat? Rasheed could go into the post, but he was shooting 3+ threes per game.

The Trailblazers made deep playoff runs with Kevin Duckworth in the middle, who topped out at arguably average in the post.

As for when the last time Washington had a good post threat. Muresan?

Nivek wrote:Celtics won with Kendrick Perkins in the middle. It's arguable that KG was their post threat, but KG has been more of a mid-range guy for a long time.

When the Ben Wallace Pistons won, who was the post threat? Rasheed could go into the post, but he was shooting 3+ threes per game.

The Trailblazers made deep playoff runs with Kevin Duckworth in the middle, who topped out at arguably average in the post.

As for when the last time Washington had a good post threat. Muresan?

The fact of the matter is KG can post and score or feed, Rasheed could post and hit the turn around, Duckworth was more of a threat than what Arenas had. Duck wasn't a star, but he had touch. As for Big Ben and Perkins, they play within there limitations. Rarely do you see them going into prolongated post moves. Haywood and Etan didn't play within their limits. They were trying oto outplay each other. Ruffin played within his limits at least. Sure once in a while they scored, but you leave somebody open, they should be able to dunk or lay the ball in. But the only threat they were was to the Wizards.

In my opinion, the offense even without a respectable big man was one of the top offenses in the league. Yes, defense plays a part in the equation. But I just don't think everything is Arenas fault on those teams.

You're preaching to the choir. The offense with pre-injury Arenas was more than good enough to go deep in the playoffs. Arenas was one of the league's top offensive weapons and one of the most efficient high-usage players. But, the defense sucked. That was partly Gil's fault, but lots of people were responsible for the bad defense.

Brenice wrote:The fact of the matter is KG can post and score or feed, Rasheed could post and hit the turn around, Duckworth was more of a threat than what Arenas had. Duck wasn't a star, but he had touch. As for Big Ben and Perkins, they play within there limitations. Rarely do you see them going into prolongated post moves. Haywood and Etan didn't play within their limits. They were trying oto outplay each other. Ruffin played within his limits at least. Sure once in a while they scored, but you leave somebody open, they should be able to dunk or lay the ball in. But the only threat they were was to the Wizards.

In my opinion, the offense even without a respectable big man was one of the top offenses in the league. Yes, defense plays a part in the equation. But I just don't think everything is Arenas fault on those teams.

Wrong. Haywood played very well and played within his limits. He was always an elite post defender and a very good help defender. The problem was that EJ inexplicably refused to play him enough minutes. He liked the "energy" that Etan brought, even though Etan was utterly ineffective.

If the team had a legit defensive shooting guard on the roster (somebody the caliber of prime Doug Christie or prime Raja Bell), and if EJ played Haywood 32-34 minutes a game, I think the team would have made the 2nd round a few times if everyone was healthy.

nate33 wrote:

Brenice wrote:The fact of the matter is KG can post and score or feed, Rasheed could post and hit the turn around, Duckworth was more of a threat than what Arenas had. Duck wasn't a star, but he had touch. As for Big Ben and Perkins, they play within there limitations. Rarely do you see them going into prolongated post moves. Haywood and Etan didn't play within their limits. They were trying oto outplay each other. Ruffin played within his limits at least. Sure once in a while they scored, but you leave somebody open, they should be able to dunk or lay the ball in. But the only threat they were was to the Wizards.

In my opinion, the offense even without a respectable big man was one of the top offenses in the league. Yes, defense plays a part in the equation. But I just don't think everything is Arenas fault on those teams.

Wrong. Haywood played very well and played within his limits. He was always an elite post defender and a very good help defender. The problem was that EJ inexplicably refused to play him enough minutes. He liked the "energy" that Etan brought, even though Etan was utterly ineffective.

If the team had a legit defensive shooting guard on the roster (somebody the caliber of prime Doug Christie or prime Raja Bell), and if EJ played Haywood 32-34 minutes a game, I think the team would have made the 2nd round a few times if everyone was healthy.

I agree.... and, I would go so far as saying that a couple of late game situational substitutions of Antawn would have yielded at least one more second round appearance. (Think Le Crab -- baseline, Tawn -- potted plant, uncontested layup -- game 5 over).

Brenice wrote:

Ruzious wrote:In today's game, a post player can actually do more harm than good to an offense that relies on penetration - because of the rule changes several years ago that benefit players who drive the lane. Post players clog the middle and draw defenders toward the middle. That's one reason Shaq wasn't a good fit with Lebron, and Brand hasn't been a good fit with Iggy. Otoh, if you have a bunch of 3 point shooters, a post player is invaluable drawing double teams - see Magic, Orlando.

Come on now, you should know better than that. Shaq is a shell of himself and him playing sure didn't hinder Kobe and Wade.

What you are saying is that it is better to not have a post player at all, and last I knew, Boston has KG posting up. Duncan posts up. Gasol posts up. Shaq posted up. Dwight posts up. Boozer posted up for Utah. What did Chicago sign him to do?

Washington had Haywood posting up. Etan posting up. Even if they weren't fed the ball, they were on the court. They sure weren't hanging on the perimeter like Manute Bol did as a GS Warrior.

I concur that a great post player is going to help pretty much any team, but your typical average post player - when playing on a team that relies heavily on other players driving the lane - can hurt the production and efficiency of his teammates, imo.

Btw, KG's a bad example for your case. He's been criticised throughout his career for NOT being a post player. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of his points have not been from posting up anyone.

nate33 wrote:Wrong. Haywood played very well and played within his limits. He was always an elite post defender and a very good help defender. The problem was that EJ inexplicably refused to play him enough minutes. He liked the "energy" that Etan brought, even though Etan was utterly ineffective.

If the team had a legit defensive shooting guard on the roster (somebody the caliber of prime Doug Christie or prime Raja Bell), and if EJ played Haywood 32-34 minutes a game, I think the team would have made the 2nd round a few times if everyone was healthy.

When the ball is fed to Haywood for anything other than a dunk or layup BACK THEN, he should have passed back out. Anything else was outside of his limits.

Ruzious wrote:

Btw, KG's a bad example for your case. He's been criticised throughout his career for NOT being a post player. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of his points have not been from posting up anyone.

KG does get the ball with his man on his hip. That to me is posting up. He may not get deep post position, but he is in a triple-threat position, to shoot the turn-around, take 1 dribble towards the rim, or pass to a cutter, something the Wizards didn't have.

Brenice wrote:

nate33 wrote:Wrong. Haywood played very well and played within his limits. He was always an elite post defender and a very good help defender. The problem was that EJ inexplicably refused to play him enough minutes. He liked the "energy" that Etan brought, even though Etan was utterly ineffective.

If the team had a legit defensive shooting guard on the roster (somebody the caliber of prime Doug Christie or prime Raja Bell), and if EJ played Haywood 32-34 minutes a game, I think the team would have made the 2nd round a few times if everyone was healthy.

When the ball is fed to Haywood for anything other than a dunk or layup BACK THEN, he should have passed back out. Anything else was outside of his limits.

That's all he ever did. Haywood shot 55% during his prime years as a Wizard. What more do you want?

I'm not saying Haywood was a good offensive player. I just object to the idea that Haywood tried to do too much. Haywood was always a low-usage player who rarely forced anything.

Brenice wrote:

Ruzious wrote:

Btw, KG's a bad example for your case. He's been criticised throughout his career for NOT being a post player. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of his points have not been from posting up anyone.

KG does get the ball with his man on his hip. That to me is posting up. He may not get deep post position, but he is in a triple-threat position, to shoot the turn-around, take 1 dribble towards the rim, or pass to a cutter, something the Wizards didn't have.

You're right that he's in the triple threat position, but that's facing the basket; not posting up. I think he could have been a very good post-up player; he just hasn't done it a whole lot - though the one game I did see him doing it a lot - a playoff game vs. Detroit trying to take advantage of 6'6 Jason Maxiell guarding him, Maxiell ate his lunch - blocking his shot a couple of times and generally abusing him.

last legit post threat was probably big Ghitza

Before that Moses

before that Ruland

before that Hayes

Surprised no one has talked about Dray in this thread yet. I saw some real good flashes from him in the post last season. It seems most on here think he is more perimiter or well rounded it but I could see us giving him the rock on the block and him being a consistent go to guy from there

dobrojim wrote:last legit post threat was probably big Ghitza

Before that Moses

before that Ruland

before that Hayes

Considering Big Gheorghe only "dominated" about a season and a half before his career ended, it's been 30 years since the Bullets/Wizards had a true pivot in the middle. Moses was past his prime when he came to DC but did get the Bullets to the playoffs, so he counts. Ruland was in his prime, but went to Philly (and immediately broke down) after only a couple great years. jim, the "Big E" IMO was more of a PF. Wes was the post. Together, and with guys like Kupchak and Truck Robinson they were dominate up front. That's the last sustained great post play era IMO.

In the last 40 years, there's only been Wes/E and they've been gone 30 years. Big Mo and the better half of the Bruise Brothers have been gone 25 years. Ghitza, we barely knew.

I hope in the future the Wizards can get Howard or Marc Gasol, or another legit promising C.