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Ed Wood wrote:I feel like the Gil starting thing comes up enough that it would be better to just create a thread devoted to the topic, because man is it ruining this thread right now.

Have at it!

Nobody cares about Gilbert starting.

What I would really like to have is a very good analysis of the effects of starting vs. coming off of the bench on players. I realize that this is an issue of respect as much as the numbers for some but I don't think this has been chaffing Gil that much and I don't really place much of a premium on the mystique of the starter label so to me this is basically an issue of whether or not Gil would be more effective as a starter, and whether coming off of the bench would have much of an effect on Houndrock. So, I ask the ensemble: would starting Gil have a significant impact on how well the team plays?

So uh, sweep me off my feet Kev I guess.

+1. Keep the thread; let's get some analysis.

Damn, I just saw this because I put mine in the other thread but here is what I said:



Good Win, But........







you already know what Im going to talk about. I just dont get why Kirk has to start over Gil. Kirk is the perfect backup PG. Look at our starting lineup tonight. We dont have 1 consistent scorer on the floor. Our 2 most money scorers are Gil & NY and Flip wants to bring both off the bench. We have to depend on guys like Wall or McGee or Kirk or Gee or Dray to score for us? Just start Gil. It makes so much more sense. I also think its becoming clearer that Gil & Wall "can" play together like I said. Wall just needs to get his timing back & Gil just needs his J to start falling again.

The thing Im most upset about is the sked. We are going out West right now. If youve followed the Wiz then you know Gil always finds his rythm out West. You going to put him on the bench against a running team like the Suns who has Nash or either Gil's boy Richardson to guard him? He always goes off in situations like that. Then going back home to LA to play the Lakers? Thats 2 places he dropped 54 & 60pts and we bring him off the bench. No PG the Lakers have can guard a motivated Gil and Kobe is too big to guard him.

Then we go to Sac? That sked has the Arenas takeover written all over it. He could single handily keep us in those games or win those games but we want him on the bench for Kirk and we want us to start off looking like crap every game. Starting every game with Wall wanting to pass but having no go to scorer to pass it to. Then he has to be the go to scorer which he is not. Then we end up bringing Gil in anyways because we havent gotten anything going. Just start the normal lineup Flip, you idiot.

I just could see Gil & Wall looking great out West in uptempo games. We could start looking like a different team. Look at that lineup & rotations tonight. We arent going to win hardly any games like that and if we do, it will all be stressful dog fights. We already have NY for the bench scoring. NY & Kirk are a great match on the bench together. I just dont get it. Its just setting everything back. Then by time he switches it up, everything will be too far gone. We will already be in suck mode.

I mean, are we seriously going to have Gil benched for Hinrich? Again, this isnt a Hinrich diss. He can play but his role on this team is the backup PG, not the starting 2 you fool, espically when we have no consistent scorers in the starting unit. I could see us being explosive if Wall & Gil get going at the same time with guys like Dray & McGee in the frontcourt. It sholdnt even be for debate. Gil's playing very well right now except his J is way off. You know one of these games he's going to get it back and we are going to waste that. It doesnt make sense.

Gil can do things like Lebron did the other night as far as having a 20pt quarter. Kirk isnt capable of that. Why Flip? Ive said all along that its going to take a Hinrich injury for him to be put in his proper role and I dont want to wish injuries on anyone but thats just how dumb Flip is right now. It makes no sense. Gil starting with Kirk & NY on the bench is just the perfect mix. Our team would look night & day with that group but maybe Flip is just tanking it or something. If youre going to tank, it would help to build up Gil's stock in the process though

Gil must start **** that ****. **** this ****

lol, did you hear what Flip just said? He's such a tool. He talked about how Gil talked with Sam before the season about wanting to come off the bench and how it would be best for the team but when it came around to really doing it, I dont know if he still felt that way.

Basically its just what I thought. Gil was saying that stuff just to be a good team guy but didnt think Flip was dumb enough to really do it, espically after he had been in the starting lineup all this time now and has had some big games. Atleast bench him for a star or a guy like Wall but you dont bench him for Hinrich.

He could play well out West but it still wont be what it couldve been if starting. If he gets 30 off the bench against the Suns, that is a game where he wouldve got 45 if he was starting but Flip will be too dumb to even realize that

Flip is a tool bag and needs to go Ted, let Cassell finish out the season.. I'm tired of watching Hinrich dribble the piss out of the ball running out the shot clock he should never play PG over Gil or Wall..

When Gilbert and Hinrich are in together it drives me nuts that Flip puts the ball in Hinrichs hands how idiotic is he really?

If Flip had any sense has a coach he would be starting Gil especially over his new mancrush captain Kirk.. Gilbert and Wall need to be instructed to run at every chance and continue to be agressive dribble driving i'm tired of seeing Gil playing passively off the ball, fawking attack..

If anybody on this team should be forcing shots and encouraged to shoot more its Gil not Andray i'm a blackhole Blatche..

I can't stand Flip, i'd take Eddie Jordan back in a minute and thats sad

You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting. We're 1-2 when he doesn't play. So far, I don't see it making much difference either way.

nate33 wrote:You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting.

I'd rather be 500. so start him.

Wizardspride wrote:

nate33 wrote:You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting.

I'd rather be 500. so start him.

No, 2 wins and 5 losses with him off the bench. 3 wins and 6 losses with him starting. .285 winning percentage versus .333 winning percentage.

nate33 wrote:

Wizardspride wrote:

nate33 wrote:You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting.

I'd rather be 500. so start him.

No, 2 wins and 5 losses with him off the bench. 3 wins and 6 losses with him starting. .285 winning percentage versus .333 winning percentage.

I read that wrong. My bad.

Nate, it's a small sample size to state records at this point. Fact is we need a guard who can hit a jumpshot starting the game. If Arenas is on he can drop 10-15 in the first at times. A lot easier to do from the jump than in a situation where we are down 6.

Hinrich is not capable of being a starting SG, the guy is a perfect backup change of pace PG for Wall. Arenas can handle the SG position. Young is the ideal backup SG. We have Gee and Martin for the SF (and Howard soon). This needs to stop.

Arenas being a bench player when the major offensive problem with our starting guards is the inability to hit a jumper is maddening. Guy is a perennial all star and still has major talent. A team with such a poor record and glaring weaknesses Gil can address has no business benching their best player.

F-ing stupid and falls in line with the foolish personnel decisions this franchise has made for decades. But these types of rotations remind me why a recent champion Pistons jettisoned the guy and classy guys like Rip Hamiltom and Prince called him out for his inability to adjust and rotations in the playoffs.

In short, I'm not calling for his firing but let's recognize with 7 first round exits and 3 straight losses with a loaded pistons team his decision making isn't top notch

nate33 wrote:You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting. We're 1-2 when he doesn't play. So far, I don't see it making much difference either way.

While I agree that his defense is better, I don't think it's better by a mile. At least not this year. Gil has been much better on defense. Is he shutting his man down? No. Gil is making his man work though. He made this board's favorite trade/free agent target a bit uncomfortable tonight. Even when he gets beat, he's often taking pressure off our bigs by blocking the shot from behind.

Induveca, I don't disagree with you that it's a small sample size. But my point is that everyone screams and stomps their feet that we are so much better when Gil starts, but there's absolutely no data that shows that. For example, you state in a matter of fact manner that we need a guard who can hit a jumpshot to start the game, implying that only Arenas can do so. The fact is, Hinrich has a much higher eFG% than Arenas (.527 to .463) and a comparable 3P% (.340 to .365, and that .365 number is going to drop after tonight's game).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I'm saying is, let's not act like this is the key issue for this team to reconcile. Judging from the data we have so far, it doesn't really matter that much. Hinrich, Wall and Arenas are all going to play, and they will all get 30+ minutes a game.

bullitz wrote:

nate33 wrote:You guys are all forgetting that basketball is played on both ends of the court. Flip starts Hinrich because of his defense, not his offense. Hinrich's D is a bit overrated, but it's still better than Arenas' by a mile.

As long as Gil plays 30+ minutes, I don't really care who starts. With Young out, I like to have Gil provide the firepower to the second unit. When Young comes back, it may be time for Gil to bump Hinrich out of the starting rotation, but I'm not going to bitch about it.

We're 2-5 with Gil coming off the bench. We're 3-6 with him starting. We're 1-2 when he doesn't play. So far, I don't see it making much difference either way.

While I agree that his defense is better, I don't think it's better by a mile. At least not this year. Gil has been much better on defense. Is he shutting his man down? No. Gil is making his man work though. He made this board's favorite trade/free agent target a bit uncomfortable tonight. Even when he gets beat, he's often taking pressure off our bigs by blocking the shot from behind.

Fair enough. Gil has been surprisingly decent on D this year. "By a mile" is overstating it.

nate33 wrote:Induveca, I don't disagree with you that it's a small sample size. But my point is that everyone screams and stomps their feet that we are so much better when Gil starts, but there's absolutely no data that shows that. For example, you state in a matter of fact manner that we need a guard who can hit a jumpshot to start the game, implying that only Arenas can do so. The fact is, Hinrich has a much higher eFG% than Arenas (.527 to .463) and a comparable 3P% (.340 to .365, and that .365 number is going to drop after tonight's game).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I'm saying is, let's not act like this is the key issue for this team to reconcile. Judging from the data we have so far, it doesn't really matter that much. Hinrich, Wall and Arenas are all going to play, and they will all get 30+ minutes a game.

Problem is your data is very shallow for this specific issue, a lot more going on here IMO.

Arenas as we should all remember (even last year) can be a transcendent player. He needs some rhythm out there after 2 1/2 years off, and from a personnel standpoint the confidence of the coach. If Grant Hill can still start and make major contributions at 38, pretty foolish to think Arenas cannot at 28. That's my issue with Saunders right now, he should be maximizing our talent on the floor long-term not for the moment. That requires starting our best players and letting them gel.....Arenas is far and away a vastly superior player/talent than Hinrich. That should be obvious to everyone.

Data is necessary, but management plays a huge part in success. Benching a guy like Arenas is a poor move, especially considering he's the best player on the team. I also think Hinrich limits Wall's game as he feels the need to become a jumpshooting point with Hinrich on the floor. Arenas can create his own shot, not true of Hinrich.

Today's little news blurb is what I suspected, Arenas made an offer early in the season as he was out of shape and could help more off the bench.......he's rounding into shape now and Flip benches him in favor of Hinrich.

Look if Arenas was playing like garbage and not showing flashes (31 point game, near triple doubles) and continuing to improve I wouldn't complain. But the fact is Hinrich is more often than not a non-factor on the offensive end, and that's where we've been struggling.....perimeter shooting.

Outside of Young, Arenas is the only guy on the team that can nail a three......or get hot and drop 20 points in a quarter. If you don't want to start Arenas, fine.....then start Young. Our first quarters typically involve Blatche shooting 6-8 18 footers. Then we're suddenly down 8 points when Young and/or Arenas are inserted in the game.

It's ridiculous.

Induveca wrote:Today's little news blurb is what I suspected, Arenas made an offer early in the season as he was out of shape and could help more off the bench.......he's rounding into shape now and Flip benches him in favor of Hinrich.

Look if Arenas was playing like garbage and not showing flashes (31 point game, near triple doubles) and continuing to improve I wouldn't complain. But the fact is Hinrich is more often than not a non-factor on the offensive end, and that's where we've been struggling.....perimeter shooting.

Outside of Young, Arenas is the only guy on the team that can nail a three......or get hot and drop 20 points in a quarter. If you don't want to start Arenas, fine.....then start Young. Our first quarters typically involve Blatche shooting 6-8 18 footers. Then we're suddenly down 8 points when Young and/or Arenas are inserted in the game.

It's ridiculous.

He is 7-26 from the field in his last two games. On the season he is averaging 17 ppg in 33 minutes shooting 38% from the field. He is 11th in the league in turnovers. In his 31 point game he didn't shoot well but just got to the line a lot. Most of the refs haven't been so friendly.

In his last 4 games he is 4-22 from 3. Is that what you call "continuing to improve"? He looks like a guy who is trying to play his way back into shape but has gotten too many minutes too soon.

tontoz wrote:

Induveca wrote:Today's little news blurb is what I suspected, Arenas made an offer early in the season as he was out of shape and could help more off the bench.......he's rounding into shape now and Flip benches him in favor of Hinrich.

Look if Arenas was playing like garbage and not showing flashes (31 point game, near triple doubles) and continuing to improve I wouldn't complain. But the fact is Hinrich is more often than not a non-factor on the offensive end, and that's where we've been struggling.....perimeter shooting.

Outside of Young, Arenas is the only guy on the team that can nail a three......or get hot and drop 20 points in a quarter. If you don't want to start Arenas, fine.....then start Young. Our first quarters typically involve Blatche shooting 6-8 18 footers. Then we're suddenly down 8 points when Young and/or Arenas are inserted in the game.

It's ridiculous.

He is 7-26 from the field in his last two games. On the season he is averaging 17 ppg in 33 minutes shooting 38% from the field. He is 11th in the league in turnovers. In his 31 point game he didn't shoot well but just got to the line a lot. Most of the refs haven't been so friendly.

In his last 4 games he is 4-22 from 3. Is that what you call "continuing to improve"? He looks like a guy who is trying to play his way back into shape but has gotten too many minutes too soon.

homie, Durant is shooting 41% this year but OK isnt going to bench him because they know his upside is so great and he will only improve. Stop talking about meaninless stats this early in the year when half of them came when he was just coming back, rusty, and on the bench. He had like 2 games of 1-7, 2-14, and another one that killed his shooting percentage. He's not playing nearly as bad as you make him out to be. He came right in and changed the game in our last one with his passing. So what his J is a little off. He's been doing everything else pretty darn well and if you are a great player/scorer then you know the J is going to start to fall just like it will for Durant. You dont bench him when he's the guy that can make plays and go for 50