Wall/Beal vs Arenas/Hughes

Brenice · Post #1 » by **Brenice** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:06 pm

What do you think the potential of the Wall/Beal backcourt from what we have seen to date, compared to what we saw of the Arenas/Hughes backcourt.

Of note, the Wall/Beal combo is more prototypical with a pass first point/pure shooting 2-guard while the Arenas/Hughes backcourt was 2 combo-guards.

FAH1223 · Post #2 » by **FAH1223** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:28 pm

greater potential than Arenas/Hughes

Nivek · Post #3 » by **Nivek** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:31 pm

Definitely greater potential in Beal-Wall. Arenas was phenomenal on offense, but I think Beal is going to have the more well-rounded game. Hughes had one terrific year, but was pretty average otherwise. Wall could be great, if he improves.

Post #4 » by **nate33** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:51 pm

Interesting comparison. I think Wall is a lot like Hughes (in his career year, that is). Hughes stuffed the box score, played good D against PG's or SG's, scored inefficiently, and couldn't shoot. That's a perfect description of Wall. Wall is a better passer, but Hughes was the better rebounder. Overall, I'd say Wall will pan out to be about as good as Hughes' career year, but will be likely to maintain that level for quite some time, rather than be a one-year wonder.

The Beal versus Arenas comparison is a bit more difficult to analyze. I don't think there's any chance that Beal will become the prolific scorer that Arenas was, but he might get pretty close and do so in a manner that fits into the offense better. And he'll play better D. And he won't be crazy. Overall, I don't think Beal will peak quite as high as Arenas did, but he could get pretty close.

So basically, I'd say peak Arenas > peak Beal, and peak Hughes = peak Wall. So at their peaks, the Arenas/Hughes backcourt has the edge, but they didn't actually peak together. Arenas peaked after Hughes' departure. So with that in mind, I think the Wall/Beal peak might exceed the Arenas/Hughes peak.

GhostsOfGil · Post #5 » by **GhostsOfGil** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:02 pm

I was never that big of a Larry Hughes fan just because he was one of the most selfish transition player I have ever seen.

I doubt Wall will ever have the on court impact Areans will have but Beal tips this one. Wall/Beal for me.

Post #6 » by **Ruzious** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:07 pm

Hopefully, Wall and Beal are built to last better than Arenas/Hughes. Hughes' success was apparently not sustainable - for whatever the reasons. I think Beal being a more grounded (figuratively) player gives Wall/Beal an edge.

pancakes3 · Post #7 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:11 pm

Beal doesn't have the step or the handles to do what Arenas was capable of. I even doubt if he's got the lead-guard skills to recreate Seattle Ray Allen. That said, I think Wall/Beal is greater than the sum of their parts - at least moreso than Arenas/Hughes. The spacing, the complementary skillsets, and imo the chemistry all favors wall/beal.

Brenice · Post #8 » by **Brenice** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:17 pm

I was down with Agent 0, even if he was quirky and pretty much a scorer, cause that 1 dimension was great. Hughes was injury prone it seemed and was always breaking something, which limited the time Gil and Hughes played together. Hopefully Wall and Beal don't have that problem.

I like the Wall and Beal combo better, and I'm pleased about it, based on what Beal is showing after a slow start. They can score and defend, and as Wall gets his game back, the duo will be better than Arenas/Hughes. I think Wall is still finding his game after the time not playing at all. He was playing better last year than this year, but this year is not over yet. He still seems to be a month or so behind the rest of the league, IMO.

DCZards · Post #9 » by **DCZards** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:18 pm

Beal and Wall have the potential to be one of the top backcourts in the NBA, especially if John works on his shooting, ballhandling and decisionmaking. Beal's gonna be a star. I've been fairly certain of that from Day One.

Judging from what I'm hearing and seeing, Beal is already emerging as a team leader. I expect Double B to become the Zards lead dog both on and off the court in the very near future. I believe that will take a lot of the pressure off Wall, and actually help him become a better player.

It broke my heart when Hughes signed with the Cavs after the terrific year he and Arenas had together. It turned out to be a real setback for both Hughes and the Zards, imo. Arenas and Hughes complemented each other well. I'm convinced that Larry would have continued to play well if he had remained teamed with Agent Zero. What a shame, especially for Larry.

Severn Hoos · Post #10 » by **Severn Hoos** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:20 pm

Wow, this is an interesting (and so far, surprising) topic. First, because it gives us a chance to go in the wayback machine and remember how Arenas & Hughes were viewed in the halcyon days of yore. I seem to remember a whole lotta love for Hughes on here, which is a position I did not share. But then, with the excavation of the Amazingly Sucky threads and a few SD20 references, my memory may not be what it used to be.

Point is, I would have thought this board would give it to Arenas/Hughes in a landslide, but it looks like it's going the other way.

nate captured well that the respective peaks for Hughes and Arenas didn't exactly coincide - and that may have to be factored in. So, if you're talking about the potential of Wall/Beal at some point in the future being better than 2004-05 Arenas/Hughes, then yes, maybe they could be. (Although I can't possibly imagine Beal/Wall ever matching the hypothetical pairing of 2004-05 Hughes and 2005-07 Arenas.)

I guess longevity would cause me to choose Wall/Beal over Arenas/Hughes (although we shouldn't take anything for granted when it comes to the Wiz & health). And they certainly can be a better defensive pairing (I always thought Larry's defense was wildly overrated). But Arenas was such a transcendent offensive player for that short period of time, I don't think Wall & Beal could ever match that, even combined.

Maybe we can revisit this after they win a playoff series.

Higga · Post #11 » by **Higga** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:31 pm

I like both Wall and Beal, but as of now neither are anywhere near prime Gilbert Arenas. I do think the potential is good though, but not close, not yet.

Beal will be great though, better than Hughes for sure.

Upper Decker · Post #12 » by **Upper Decker** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:27 pm

Arenas would have been a better defender if he had a strong defensive supporting cast like Wall/Beal. If those mid-2000 Wizard teams had Okafor and Nene rather than Haywood and Jamison I wouldn't be surprised if they made at least a couple ECF. Heck, with a healthy Arenas they'd make the 2007 finals over Cleveland.

Arenas was a top 5 offensive force. He could single handedly carry an offense and make it reasonably efficient. Both Wall and Beal have a long way to go to get to that level and I'm not sure either will. I'm inclined to say Arenas/Stevenson are still better than Wall/Beal.

RustyMagoo · Post #13 » by **RustyMagoo** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:29 pm

Wall/Beal have played ?12? games together. Its a little early for me to call.

I'm pretty sure Arenas/Hughes are still in the NBA, they just changed their names and moved to Milwaukee.

Post #14 » by **Ruzious** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:34 pm

RustyMagoo wrote:Wall/Beal have played ?12? games together. Its a little early for me to call.

I'm pretty sure Arenas/Hughes are still in the NBA, they just changed their names and moved to Milwaukee.

Which one's Redick? :wink:

Brenice · Post #15 » by **Brenice** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:42 pm

Upper Decker wrote:I'm inclined to say Arenas/Stevenson are still better than Wall/Beal.

The question was about "potential", not who was better.

Post #16 » by **jmrosenth** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:05 pm

Arenas was considered a top 10 NBA talent during his heyday here pre-knee injury and Gungate. He was awesome and clutch, had ridiculous range and could finish - both things Wall doesn't really do well. I'm not sure if Wall would rank in the top 50 at this point. I'm not trying to knock the guy, but that's how good Arenas was.

As for Hughes, he was no slouch either but do think Beal can and should eclipse. But the difference btwn Wall and Arenas may not close as much as we hope. So unless I see a big jump from Wall, Arenas and Hughes for me.

hands11 · Post #17 » by **hands11** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:48 pm

Looks like this did need its own thread instead of going in the Wall thread. It wasn't ever about Wall vs Gil. It was about which TEAM is better constructed.

So here is where it started and several responses. Maybe the mods can merge them over.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1226950&start=255

hands11 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:49 pm

I prefer a team build with a true pass first PG. Been saying that since back in the Gil days.

I would rather have Wall/Beal then Gil/DS or Gil/Hughes

It was always going to be a challenge to build a good team around a max contract shoot first PG that didn't play D. Thats why I never believed those teams. Solid first round team would never really challenge in the second round.

I would rather have a player like Beal on the floor playing a larger scoring role with a passing PG that plays defense and enough shots left over for some post possessions from the PF and center who both also play defense.

One think about those Gil team, there was never really any shots left over for post play. Even when Haywood would get it going, they would always go away from him.

hands11 · Post #18 » by **hands11** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:54 pm

Nivek wrote:Definitely greater potential in Beal-Wall. Arenas was phenomenal on offense, but I think Beal is going to have the more well-rounded game. Hughes had one terrific year, but was pretty average otherwise. Wall could be great, if he improves.

Two hybrid ball dominate chuckers vs two team players that a pure for their positions. I will take Wall and Beal.

And beyond size, talent and skill, there is no replacement for the person Beal is and what he will be as a team leader for years to come. Beal is what tips it into the Wall/Beal column. Its not just about pts. And both Beal and Wall are focused team players and good defenders. Hughes was pretty good at D. I give him that. But he was N1on5 before there was a N1on5.

Hughes on the break. He has 2 teammates running with him and 2 players back on defense. Superman takes it himself. How many times did I see that. :lol:

Gil and Hughes is closer to what they have in MIK. No thanks.

zardsfan · Post #19 » by **zardsfan** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:35 pm

I have much love for Agent Zero and the Arenas/Hughes back court was fun to watch; but I think the Wall/Beal back court is a foundation that can get you deep in the playoffs, where scoring usually goes down and playing good defense gets more important.

pancakes3 · Post #20 » by **pancakes3** » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:25 pm

I just want to reiterate how awkwardly the pair of Hughes/Arenas played. I'm sure many of you remember how bad Hughes was on the break and how he refused to pass the ball, or play nice overall. Those '04, '05 years were kinda brutal when it was just Arenas and Hughes taking turns iso'ing. The fond memories from Arenas are mostly from '06 where he was a stone cold assassin.