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The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread

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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#341 » by montestewart » Tue May 13, 2014 1:21 am

nate33 wrote:
dlts20 wrote:
Sluggerface wrote:We gave the max to the wrong player. It's become widely apparent that Beal is going to be the best player on this roster going down the line. I saw more straightline drives to the basket by Beal in two playoff series than I've seen Wall do all year. Absolutely pathetic. I'd honestly trade Wall right now for one of the top 3 picks in this draft if I had the choice.

no we didnt. Just one playoff series and he started the slump before then. If it happens again then you can question it but I dont see him having anymore bust shootinng playoffs like this. He'll be more dominant and use to the grind next year

Yeah. Too early to write off Wall yet. It'll be interesting to see how he uses this playoff failure as motivation. (Though to be fair, I don't really get the impression that he has been lazy in prior offseasons or anything.)

He's extremely talented and far from lazy. What he needs is an epiphany. Arenas could have used one too, and it never came. There's still time for Wall.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#342 » by dckingsfan » Tue May 13, 2014 1:54 am

Come back good John!
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#343 » by CobraCommander » Tue May 13, 2014 1:54 am

montestewart wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dlts20 wrote:no we didnt. Just one playoff series and he started the slump before then. If it happens again then you can question it but I dont see him having anymore bust shootinng playoffs like this. He'll be more dominant and use to the grind next year

Yeah. Too early to write off Wall yet. It'll be interesting to see how he uses this playoff failure as motivation. (Though to be fair, I don't really get the impression that he has been lazy in prior offseasons or anything.)

He's extremely talented and far from lazy. What he needs is an epiphany. Arenas could have used one too, and it never came. There's still time for Wall.


Wow Sluggerface- I don't think I could disagree with you more- a 23 year old wall that avg 20 and 9 all year and has improved every year of his young career- and you would trade him for some unproven guys that got bounced early in the NCAA tournament? Wall has been exposed yes - but Wall has so much talent, so much heart, so much potential that he should be able to tap in a few years- without wall the wiz not even close to being in playoffs- beal is good and if you a wiz fan you hope beal can become a great player. Hopefully they both become true max players and we can add another great player when these two hit their prime and we compete for championships ! Wall and Beal have work to do. Beal and Wall are both defensive liabilities- beal more than wall-
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#344 » by nate33 » Tue May 13, 2014 1:05 pm

Kinda ridiculous to call Wall and Beal defensive liabilities. They make mistakes from time to time, but overall, Wall is definitely an above-average defender and Beal is at least average. How many points has Lance Stephenson scored this series?
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#345 » by Dat2U » Tue May 13, 2014 1:19 pm

Wall is too inconsistent defensively partly because the effort is inconsistent and his fundamentals are pretty poor in terms of moving laterally. Both Hinrich & George Hill have gotten into the lane pretty much at will against him.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#346 » by Higga » Tue May 13, 2014 2:44 pm

Dat2U wrote:Wall is too inconsistent defensively partly because the effort is inconsistent and his fundamentals are pretty poor in terms of moving laterally. Both Hinrich & George Hill have gotten into the lane pretty much at will against him.


I noticed that too. There is NO REASON Wall should ever get beat off the dribble by the likes of Kirk Hinrich and George Hill. The only thing stopping Wall from being a dominant defender is Wall himself.

But I'm more concerned about his lack of offense. He was hitting open jumpers with some regularity this year, but he has regressed in this series.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#347 » by Brenice » Tue May 13, 2014 2:55 pm

Higga wrote:But I'm more concerned about his lack of offense. He was hitting open jumpers with some regularity this year, but he has regressed in this series.


I know Wall's confidence in his jumpers is low right now and that Indy wants him to shoot because they think he can't beat them by shooting. But I also know he improved his jumper which brings me to this, he is experiencing playoff intensity and speed. His improved jumper is not accustomed to the playoffs. The playoffs has to "slow down" for him. Just a thought.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#348 » by FAH1223 » Tue May 13, 2014 3:16 pm

Brenice wrote:
Higga wrote:But I'm more concerned about his lack of offense. He was hitting open jumpers with some regularity this year, but he has regressed in this series.


I know Wall's confidence in his jumpers is low right now and that Indy wants him to shoot because they think he can't beat them by shooting. But I also know he improved his jumper which brings me to this, he is experiencing playoff intensity and speed. His improved jumper is not accustomed to the playoffs. The playoffs has to "slow down" for him. Just a thought.


Chicago did the same thing and his jumper wasn't falling in that series all that much either.

The willingness to attack has waned in this round. Sure, Hibbert is there clogging the middle but I'd rather see him try to bulldoze himself and get Hibbert in foul trouble.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#349 » by Nivek » Tue May 13, 2014 3:18 pm

I think it's fair to have concerns about Wall, and it's particularly fair to have concerns about Wall at a maximum salary. He's a good player with obvious potential to become great...if he improves. And, despite being an All-Star and getting copious accolades, in terms of his overall production and impact on the game, he really didn't improve much this season -- if at all. Maybe the true leap comes next year.

Seems a worthwhile place to mention this, but a Utah Jazz blogger has asserted that NBA players peak at 15,000-to-18,000 career minutes and then maintain something close to that level until approximately 30,000 minutes. Wall is 9574 regular season minutes. Even adding in his playoff minutes would leave him a little short of 10,000 minutes. I've pinged the guy who's making the assertion to get more details. If this is well-conducted research, that would put Wall's peak another couple seasons away, and would suggest there's plenty of time for improvement.

The age-based peak research suggests a peak "window" of 25-28 with an approximate plateau at that level to roughly 30-31. Wall's 23, and two more years would put him at 25. So, he's very likely to get better. Which is good -- if he can become as good as he's reputed to be, the Wizards will really have an outstanding player.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#350 » by Brenice » Tue May 13, 2014 3:24 pm

FAH1223 wrote:Chicago did the same thing and his jumper wasn't falling in that series all that much either.

The willingness to attack has waned in this round. Sure, Hibbert is there clogging the middle but I'd rather see him try to bulldoze himself and get Hibbert in foul trouble.


People act like San Antonio clogged the paint and wouldn't let LeBron go to the basket. What actually happened is the Spurs gave LeBron the jumper. Like LeBron, Wall does not want that given to him. He wants to drive but driving is not the open shot, the jumper is open. That is the best shot if you have the skill and confidence. Once the confidence goes, the skills go with it for LeBron and Wall. Sure they can force drives to the basket, but a lot of times that will go un-rewarded as you have to "climb" Hibbert or a Duncan. If they go straight up, the ref may not call a foul if LeBron or Wall jumps into Hibbert or a Duncan. They get the credit for the rule of "verticality".
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#351 » by FAH1223 » Tue May 13, 2014 3:48 pm

Brenice wrote:
People act like San Antonio clogged the paint and wouldn't let LeBron go to the basket. What actually happened is the Spurs gave LeBron the jumper. Like LeBron, Wall does not want that given to him. He wants to drive but driving is not the open shot, the jumper is open. That is the best shot if you have the skill and confidence. Once the confidence goes, the skills go with it for LeBron and Wall. Sure they can force drives to the basket, but a lot of times that will go un-rewarded as you have to "climb" Hibbert or a Duncan. If they go straight up, the ref may not call a foul if LeBron or Wall jumps into Hibbert or a Duncan. They get the credit for the rule of "verticality".


John is smaller than LeBron. So he could probably draw fouls better than LeBron can vs. Hibbert and Duncan.

I'd actually implore John to flop as much as possible. Especially in an elimination game.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#352 » by Brenice » Tue May 13, 2014 4:02 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
Especially in an elimination game.


Gaining experience. I am anxious to see how the Wizards go down, if they go down. Will they go down meekly or go down fighting as if their lives depended on it.

Its the final round and they are behind.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#353 » by Illmatic12 » Tue May 13, 2014 5:00 pm

Nivek wrote:I think it's fair to have concerns about Wall, and it's particularly fair to have concerns about Wall at a maximum salary. He's a good player with obvious potential to become great...if he improves. And, despite being an All-Star and getting copious accolades, in terms of his overall production and impact on the game, he really didn't improve much this season -- if at all. Maybe the true leap comes next year.

Seems a worthwhile place to mention this, but a Utah Jazz blogger has asserted that NBA players peak at 15,000-to-18,000 career minutes and then maintain something close to that level until approximately 30,000 minutes. Wall is 9574 regular season minutes. Even adding in his playoff minutes would leave him a little short of 10,000 minutes. I've pinged the guy who's making the assertion to get more details. If this is well-conducted research, that would put Wall's peak another couple seasons away, and would suggest there's plenty of time for improvement.

The age-based peak research suggests a peak "window" of 25-28 with an approximate plateau at that level to roughly 30-31. Wall's 23, and two more years would put him at 25. So, he's very likely to get better. Which is good -- if he can become as good as he's reputed to be, the Wizards will really have an outstanding player.

I know we have a lot of criticisms about Wall, but we have to remember that what he's doing right now is his floor. We probably won't see him look this bad for an extended period ever again.

If Wall can keep turning in seasons like the one he just had (playing all 82 games + leading us into a playoff run) he's going to be a very, very good basketball player in a few years. There's no way he doesn't continue to improve over the years, both in his play and as a leader.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#354 » by Nivek » Tue May 13, 2014 5:35 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:I know we have a lot of criticisms about Wall, but we have to remember that what he's doing right now is his floor. We probably won't see him look this bad for an extended period ever again.

If Wall can keep turning in seasons like the one he just had (playing all 82 games + leading us into a playoff run) he's going to be a very, very good basketball player in a few years. There's no way he doesn't continue to improve over the years, both in his play and as a leader.


Sorta agree, but sorta don't. We HOPE what he did this season is his floor. We expect him to improve. But, there certainly are ways that he doesn't improve -- improvement is not just something that happens. It's not inevitable. Given what I know of Wall, I think he's going to get better over the next few seasons, but then I expected him to make a significant improvement this year and it really didn't happen.

I don't want this to sound like I'm down on him, because I assuredly am not. He's good now, and I think he could become an Isiah Thomas-like figure in the league. I'm just saying that a) he's not there yet, and b) getting there isn't something "automatic," inevitable or to be taken for granted. Wall's going to have to put in the work.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#355 » by Illmatic12 » Tue May 13, 2014 5:46 pm

Nivek wrote:
Illmatic12 wrote:I know we have a lot of criticisms about Wall, but we have to remember that what he's doing right now is his floor. We probably won't see him look this bad for an extended period ever again.

If Wall can keep turning in seasons like the one he just had (playing all 82 games + leading us into a playoff run) he's going to be a very, very good basketball player in a few years. There's no way he doesn't continue to improve over the years, both in his play and as a leader.


Sorta agree, but sorta don't. We HOPE what he did this season is his floor. We expect him to improve. But, there certainly are ways that he doesn't improve -- improvement is not just something that happens. It's not inevitable. Given what I know of Wall, I think he's going to get better over the next few seasons, but then I expected him to make a significant improvement this year and it really didn't happen.

I don't want this to sound like I'm down on him, because I assuredly am not. He's good now, and I think he could become an Isiah Thomas-like figure in the league. I'm just saying that a) he's not there yet, and b) getting there isn't something "automatic," inevitable or to be taken for granted. Wall's going to have to put in the work.

Even if Wall has average work ethic or only improves incrementally, he's going to be much better at 27 years old than at 23 (barring injury). If he just adds the 3-ball here, the midrange jumper there, maybe a floater, plus the years of experience running a team, he'll be a very good point guard in his prime.

Will he make a 'leap'? You're right that it's not guaranteed, but even if he doesn't he's going to be quite good regardless. I'm not holding my breath on him reaching his absolute potential (which would be a first ballot HOF-type player) but I'm still excited to be able to look back 5 years from now at how much better he's gotten.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#356 » by Ruzious » Tue May 13, 2014 5:50 pm

I'm glad we have Wall - and even at the JuniorMax <copyrite> contract he'll have starting next season. The problem with him remains consistency - with his performance and judgment. When consistency meets talent, you have something special, and we haven't gotten there yet. I'm in the camp that would like to see how he does under a different quality coach. I think it was Dat who pointed out - he's coached to play like a game manager rather than a creator, even though he's at his best when he's creating.

Eddie Jordan was much maligned here, but I think what he did really well was let Gilbert do what he was best at on the court. I think that's not the case at all with both Wittman and Cassell. Sam is probably the worst guy you could have coaching Wall - assuming he's coaching in his image as a player - as Sam's strengths and weaknesses are almost polar opposites to Wall's. My impression is Sam is hell-bent on forcing a round peg into a small hole, and Wittman is perfectly fine with that.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#357 » by tontoz » Tue May 13, 2014 6:59 pm

Wall's passiveness on offense, relative to the regular season, has been a pretty big surprise. Even against the Bulls it seems like he was dialing it back and it has only gotten worse against Indy. As others have pointed out his reluctance to attack is neutralizing his greatest strength as a player.

I think this coaching staff really needs to hit the road.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#358 » by Dat2U » Tue May 13, 2014 7:40 pm

Ruzious wrote:I'm glad we have Wall - and even at the JuniorMax <copyrite> contract he'll have starting next season. The problem with him remains consistency - with his performance and judgment. When consistency meets talent, you have something special, and we haven't gotten there yet. I'm in the camp that would like to see how he does under a different quality coach. I think it was Dat who pointed out - he's coached to play like a game manager rather than a creator, even though he's at his best when he's creating.

Eddie Jordan was much maligned here, but I think what he did really well was let Gilbert do what he was best at on the court. I think that's not the case at all with both Wittman and Cassell. Sam is probably the worst guy you could have coaching Wall - assuming he's coaching in his image as a player - as Sam's strengths and weaknesses are almost polar opposites to Wall's. My impression is Sam is hell-bent on forcing a round peg into a small hole, and Wittman is perfectly fine with that.


Finally!!! Someone that sees the same thing I'm seeing. I thought I was the only one noticing that Wall is becoming too much of a game manager and much less of an attacker... and trying to use that mid-range shot to set up everything, especially over this past season. I want the Wall I saw over the second half of last season + the 3 pt shot he added this year. Put those two aspects together and you have a legit star and top 5-10ish type player.

I'm definitely not an Eddie Jordan fan but I'd agree, from an offensive standpoint, he empowers his guys, puts them in their ideal spots and gives them the freedom to do what they do best. Wall might already have been a star under Eddie.

tontoz wrote:Wall's passiveness on offense, relative to the regular season, has been a pretty big surprise. Even against the Bulls it seems like he was dialing it back and it has only gotten worse against Indy. As others have pointed out his reluctance to attack is neutralizing his greatest strength as a player.

I think this coaching staff really needs to hit the road.


Yep, I don't know if Wall's aggressiveness is being coached out of him, or if he's over-thinking things and lacks confidence but the passiveness has only gotten worse as the playoffs have gone on. But to be honest, it's been slowly trending this way all year. Fewer drives to the rim (20th PG in the league in total drives??? Unexceptable!), more unnecessary kickouts, too much walking the ball up the court. Wall already plays like Cassell did at the end of his career! As much praise as Cassell has been getting, I'd say he might be hurting Wall's development more than he's helped it. And Wall's development curve is really nothing to be proud of considering how slow it's been. A new coaching staff and having a different set of eyes on Wall's game could really be beneficial.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#359 » by jivelikenice » Tue May 13, 2014 8:05 pm

I've always pointed to that Boston game where he was basically reprimanded by Wittman as a turning point His FGA by month did go up the following month (largely skewed by 29 attempts versus SA), but steadily decreased along with the FTAs for the duration of the season. Instead of harnessing that type of performance and tweaking it, Randy has nuetered him. Some blame does fall on JW though..He's just not attacking the basket and has fallen in love with the long 2.

He should not be a game manager. When Wall is engaged, he demands the attention of all players on defense. That should trigger the offense...That's why I stil hope Wittman doesn't come back. Assuming he gets a 2-year deal, that would mean Wittman and Cassell would have had 6 years of John's career. That's reckless development of your #1 pick.
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Re: The Amazingly Sucky John Wall Thread 

Post#360 » by Sonny Carson » Tue May 13, 2014 10:14 pm

Guys I take back every negative comment I made about Wall if he could at least force this to a 7th game.

Good and confident John Wall return!
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