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Share your thoughts and comparisons between Washington Wizards/bullet's franchise players of the past and present.

how do they stack up, and what made some better than others?

Gilbert was one of my favorites.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1OTZGa7tTY&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Wow just imagine what the Wizard's upcoming cornerstone/franchise player Beal would be like with Gil's skills. But looks like he getting there with his handles and drives. Well key words; getting there.


Also John Wall is another I like to see comparison for. I like his style of PG. He is also run to watch. But between him and Gil, which do you enjoy watching more?


Add other franchise players to the discussion. lets get this moving.



Edit: @ Mods, if a thread like this is already here, please lock.

Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

true maybe the comparison would have been better with Wall I guess. Wall with Beal's shooting ,would be on Gil level if not greater.

Interesting thing to add.

How would the Wall/Beal/Webster pan out vs Gil/Butler/Jamison trio ?

dangermouse wrote:Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

nate33 wrote:

dangermouse wrote:Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

I agree. But I was looking at the video in the Jan thread, and saw Beal's progression. did a Gil move. I like that.

The Capital Centre > Verizon Center

Wizard's franchise players--in rough chronological order. These were they guys that the team felt it could build around during our history as I remember it. There were other top players like Jeff Malone or Antawn Jamison but they were complementary players; there were also a few players that looked like possible franchise players but they didn't last that long as Bullets/Wizards such as Earl Monroe or Tom Gugliotta. Correct me if I forgot or mischaracterized someone.

Walt Bellamy
Wes Unseld
Elvin Hayes
Jeff Ruland
Bernard King
Chris Webber
Gilbert Arenas
John Wall

Knighthonor wrote:true maybe the comparison would have been better with Wall I guess. Wall with Beal's shooting ,would be on Gil level if not greater.

Interesting thing to add.

How would the Wall/Beal/Webster pan out vs Gil/Butler/Jamison trio ?

We have had that conversation before. But Wall, Beal, Nene vs Gil, Bulter, AJ

I think the first group has more potential but you can't really evaluate it will Beal having played just one year and Wall just starting to really shine after he returned from injury last year and Nene playing all last year hurt. But by about mid reason this year, we be able to do that better comparison. Maybe sooner then that. I think Wall and Beal are going to beast this year. This year would be that other teams 2004 year.

Gil was a combo guard. Walls handles and driving with Beals shooting is about right. Which was awesome in some respects, but also caused what I saw as a problem. Specially since he didn't defend well. I would rather have that divided into Wall and Beal with Wall the true PG running the team and Beal expanding his dribble drive and passing, which he is. Plus Walls defense is way superior. So is Beals. So is Nene's vs AJ. Vastly superior defenders which makes a huge difference.

I expect this to be a better team then those old ones, and with Wall and Beal being so young and level headed, I expect it to be sustainable and upgradable. Best that other team did was 45 wins in a weak conference that year. Then they won 42, 41, 43 and then it ended with 19

Well this years team should be in the 42-45 range. The question we don't know without a crystal ball is then what ? I expect if AH does well he sticks around a few more years. But can Otto replace Trevor A ? We will see. He certainly won't have his experience right away so I expect losing Trevor A will hurt some. Will Okafor resign. I expect he would. If not, that would hurt. Will Kevin step up ? I think he will. How much ? We will see. Who is the longer team center. We still don't know.

So the future isn't as clear because they aren't at that stage yet, but this year should look good and the future has several options for how it can not only work out good, but better then that other team. Specially if we can land Dirk now and KD later. Maybe pick up Asik or Monroe. Do they draft Doug McDermott next year ? Przemek Karnowski ? Who knows.

But this year should be fun to watch. I'm pretty confident about that.

nate33 wrote:

dangermouse wrote:Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

So at best he is HOF. Because it look like his shooting is elite. And he says he have gotten better over the summer. The 3 is even easier for him now because he adjusted to the range. And he got stronger. Add 5 lbs. And better handles and passing. And some mid range.

We have one year of data on Beal and it was a year that started with no PG to speak of. And he was injured to often. He didn't really get to play with Wall much and that is the duo they built. We will have a MUCH better read on who Beal can become after we see him this year. 2 parts Ray Allen to one Part Wade is how I see his potential.

penbeast0 wrote:Wizard's franchise players--in rough chronological order. These were they guys that the team felt it could build around during our history as I remember it. There were other top players like Jeff Malone or Antawn Jamison but they were complementary players; there were also a few players that looked like possible franchise players but they didn't last that long as Bullets/Wizards such as Earl Monroe or Tom Gugliotta. Correct me if I forgot or mischaracterized someone.

Walt Bellamy
Wes Unseld
Elvin Hayes
Jeff Ruland
Bernard King
Chris Webber
Gilbert Arenas
John Wall

Moses Malone also, though I didn't like the move to add him.

Hot Plate could have developed into one, if he could only have stopped eating. He had great talent. But Food. Injury. Done. To bad Ruland had a bad back. He was very talented also.

hands11 wrote:

nate33 wrote:

dangermouse wrote:Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

So at best he is HOF. Because it look like he shooting is elite. And he says he have gotten better over the summer. The 3 is even easier for him now. And he got stronger. Add 5 lbs. And better handles and passing. And some mid range.

We have one year of data on Beal and it was a year that started with no PG to speak of. And he was injured to often. Did really get to play with Wall much and that is the duo they built. We will have a MUCH better read on who Beal can become after we see him this year. 2 parts Ray Allen to one Part Wade is how I see his potential.

When we drafted him I saw him as Hersey Hawkins. But, if he can maintain the 3-point ability he showed last year and with the current offensive trends, I can now see him into developing into more because that 3 point shot was elite -- again, if what he showed after Wall came back last year was a real indicator of his skill set.

Tiny > G Wiz

hands11 wrote:

nate33 wrote:

dangermouse wrote:Beal will never have Arenas' handles. Gil was on another nevel with his handle. The way he knifed through traffic, there is only a handful of players in the league, and maybe two handfuls of players ever, who could keep control of the ball while driving after shaking his man like he did.

Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

So at best he is HOF. Because it look like his shooting is elite. And he says he have gotten better over the summer. The 3 is even easier for him now because he adjusted to the range. And he got stronger. Add 5 lbs. And better handles and passing. And some mid range.

I never said he couldn't be a HOF caliber player. But if he does, it'll be on the strength of his jump shot a la Ray Allen. He'll never be a get-to-the-basket-at-will slasher like Arenas or Wade. Slashing will be a secondary part of his game set up by his elite jumper. Arenas and Wade are not reasonable comparisons. Hersey Hawkins or Ray Allen seem much more apt comparisons to me.

nate33 wrote:

hands11 wrote:

nate33 wrote:Agreed.

I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal. They think that just because he is young, that he can develop any type of elite skill. When it comes to handles, driving, and shot-creation ability, a player can only learn so much after he has grown up. Most of the "shimmy" in a player's game is developed in childhood. Beal doesn't have all that much. Comparisons to Wade or Arenas aren't realistic. At best I think Beal will improve his driving ability and become an expert at footwork and fundamentals so that he can drive like prime Ray Allen, or maybe Paul Pierce, but he'll never be the creative shot creator that Wade, Arenas, Jordan, etc. were.

So at best he is HOF. Because it look like his shooting is elite. And he says he have gotten better over the summer. The 3 is even easier for him now because he adjusted to the range. And he got stronger. Add 5 lbs. And better handles and passing. And some mid range.

I never said he couldn't be a HOF caliber player. But if he does, it'll be on the strength of his jump shot a la Ray Allen. He'll never be a get-to-the-basket-at-will slasher like Arenas or Wade. Slashing will be a secondary part of his game set up by his elite jumper. Arenas and Wade are not reasonable comparisons. Hersey Hawkins or Ray Allen seem much more apt comparisons to me.

LOL. Its cool. Just messing with you a little. Meant in a friendly way.

I was just pointing out how you started by saying "I think people are a little too optimistic about Beal."

Then went on to explain why we are. Sounded like you included. Its a good thing. There are lots of reason to be optimistic about Beal.

Jan Vesely > All

Knighthonor > WTA

tontoz wrote:Jan Vesely > All

Knighthonor > WTA

You don't even know who Tiny was.
You just started watching/following the Wizards 5 years ago.

Wes_Tiny_Abe_ wrote:

tontoz wrote:Jan Vesely > All

Knighthonor > WTA

You don't even know who Tiny was.
You just started watching/following the Wizards 5 years ago.

May he rest in peace

Maybe Ted could spring to spruce that grave up a little.

PS: I think tontoz has been following the Wizards a little longer than that, but who cares? As my mother said (following her only live NBA game), "Everything other than the game itself was irritating or silly." She hated the mascots, cheerleaders, promotions, music, etc. (and I think she was a little scared by the advertising blimps). Sometimes I feel the same way, although that bowl flipping unicyclist gets a thumbs up.

Wes_Tiny_Abe_ wrote:

tontoz wrote:Jan Vesely > All

Knighthonor > WTA

You don't even know who Tiny was.
You just started watching/following the Wizards 5 years ago.

I had the "Opera isn't over till the fat lady sings" tshirt when the Bullets won the title in '78. Grew out of it pretty quickly though.

Gil is definitely my all time favorite Wizard/Bullet, that goes without saying. That 60 point game in LA is still the most dominant performance I've ever seen by a Washington athlete, still remember staying up till past 2 AM watching that entire game.

Also love Chris Webber. I know it didn't end well but I blame Abe more than anyone else. Webber was on the verge of superstardom here. That playoff series where the Bulls swept us is my earliest Bullet/Wizard memory.

Some unheralded guys I always liked...

Chris Whitney-IIRC he was always pretty decent even on some awful teams. Always liked his game.

Jahidi White-Meh player but I met him at the airport once, we both came home from Puerto Rico on the same flight. Nice guy. Hot wife.

Tracy Murray-Was fun watching him in the 3 point shooting contest once, considering that was the dark ages where we never had anyone anywhere near All-Star Weekend.

I need to stop watching those Gilbert videos....I just get really sad and depressed afterwards.