Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[closg00]

Wait until draft night when a young and improving PHX team, uses our lottery pick for the Gortat rental. The blood will boil again anew here.

[hands11]

No Clogs. Its isn't and I explained why. Now if you want to ignore the facts and use your over simplified single data point, well then go ahead. But it hardly paints an accurate picture because it ignores all the most relevant information.

Considering that Charlotte has had multiple GMs with the most recent GM only taking over in the last year or so, while EG has been GM for around a decade or, you don't paint an entirely accurate picture either.

We were comparing franchises so I posted the franchise information. I also explained what was different with the Wizards regarding them having multiple playoff appearance in that time, Gils injury and contract, gungate, and Abe's passing. That was all accurate and relevant when the claim was the CHAs rebuild was faster then the Wizards. As I said, they didn't rebuild. It was all part of a 10 year build that involved 10 lottery picks. They were in the playoff one year and got sweep in 4 games. The franchise has never won a playoff game.

That said, I think they are finally starting to assemble something decent. To bad they didnt keep D.J. Augustin and T Harris and Jared Dudley.

But if they can add a really good PF via FA and they can find another piece through the draft, they should have an interesting team.

[leswizards]

We were comparing franchises so I posted the franchise information.

And, an important part of the franchise information (IMO), is that Charlotte has replaced their GM, and finally has what appears to be a competent GM, who has Charlotte in the playoff within 1 season of taking over, while the Wizards have had EG for around a decade.

[Dark Faze]

Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.

You would have taken Wall. Check.

You would have taken Beal. Check.

You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.

That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.

I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.

My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.

The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.

And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.

[tontoz]

O M G

Monte FTW

[FAH1223]

I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.

My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.

The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.

And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.

Kawhi impressed at his workout at Verizon Center, I heard nothing but good vibes about how the team felt about him. I was expecting him to be the pick and I wasn't excited either much like the rest of the board. But we all knew he would defend, play hard, and rebound...

Atleast he had a skill (rebounding well at the SF) that would have transferred over and if Singleton could hit 34% of his 3s in this offensive system, I'm sure Leonard could have done the same in his rookie year.

So frustrating.

We need to be flat out embarrassed in Round 1 for Ted to make some changes, like not be competitive and get blown out all four. I'm kind of hoping for it... esp with the team healthy now.

[Dark Faze]

Well if the Pacers can get back to what they were doing early then you'll get your wish. We weren't competitive in the earlier games agianst them.

[DCZards]

They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. There were 2 possibilities.

The first possibility is that the Wizards would not have made the playoffs without the Gortat trade. In that case, the Wizards traded what would have been a mid lottery pick in an extremely deep draft for a 1 year rental of a player who has helped them get what is currently the 7th seed in the playoffs. In that scenario, I can understand why some people might think the trade is worth it, as a playoff season is more enjoyable than a non playoff season, but to me, the cost is not worth it. I would rather have the long term asset.

The second possibility is the Wizards would have made the playoffs regardless of whether they traded for Gortat or not. In that case, the trade clearly was not worth it, as the Gortat trade really has added almost no value.

All things considered, I would have rather kept the first.

I agree that the benefit of trading for Gortat is short term---at least at this point. That could change, however, if the Zards can resign Marcin at the right price. The trade would then have a long-term benefit. (I expect it will be easier to resign Gortat now that he's already a Zard than it would have been to sign him if he had never been on the roster.)

If they resign Gortat, the Zards will have a proven starter at a key position, someone who has shown that he fits in well with the current roster.

I think making the playoffs was important for the franchise and the development of its youngins, and I'm not convinced that a mid- to late-lottery draft pick in this year's draft would have moved the needle a whole lot as far as the Zards being a championship contender.

[queridiculo]

Wait until draft night when a young and improving PHX team, uses our lottery pick for the Gortat rental. The blood will boil again anew here.

Well, good thing it's not a lottery pick… Nonetheless, it'll be interesting to see whom the Suns end up with when it's all said and done.

[TGW]

A mid to late lotto pick is gold for a good drafting GM. Just look at the Pacers...they are built on middling picks.

Only a Wizards fan would say that a low draft pick isn't valuable...that's because we've had a terrible drafting GM at the helm for 10 years. Teams with great scouting departments and competent front offices would have NEVER given up a first rounder for a 30 year old center with one year left on his contract. It's poor asset management.

If the playoffs were so important, just go out there and shoot for the 8th seed and be done with it..they could have done it without Gortat. Don't give up a pick just to be the 7th seed in a terrible Eastern Conference.

[Kanyewest]

Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.

You would have taken Wall. Check.

You would have taken Beal. Check.

You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.

That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.

True but we'e not sure what dumb mistake he would have done either. Nobody is perfect. Even the best GMs make mistakes- Morey drafted Royce White, he signed Trevor Ariza to the contract that he's currently making, he passed up Jeremy Lin the first time, he passed on Goran Dragic and Kyle Lowry for Jeremy Lin.

People often forget their own false assumptions that they would have made at the time.

Still, people need to be held accountable and EG's 2011 draft would be enough to get most GMs fired.

[Kanyewest]

Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.

You would have taken Wall. Check.

You would have taken Beal. Check.

You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.

That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.

I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.

My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.

The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.

And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.

EG wasn't the only team that passed on Bledsoe. OKC was rumored to take Seraphin if he fell to 18 and traded out of the pick once the Wizards took Seraphin. BTW, I wonder if Seraphin develops any differently under OKC than he does with the Wizards.

[noworriesinmd]

They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. There were 2 possibilities.

The first possibility is that the Wizards would not have made the playoffs without the Gortat trade. In that case, the Wizards traded what would have been a mid lottery pick in an extremely deep draft for a 1 year rental of a player who has helped them get what is currently the 7th seed in the playoffs. In that scenario, I can understand why some people might think the trade is worth it, as a playoff season is more enjoyable than a non playoff season, but to me, the cost is not worth it. I would rather have the long term asset.

The second possibility is the Wizards would have made the playoffs regardless of whether they traded for Gortat or not. In that case, the trade clearly was not worth it, as the Gortat trade really has added almost no value.

All things considered, I would have rather kept the first.

I agree that the benefit of trading for Gortat is short term---at least at this point. That could change, however, if the Zards can resign Marcin at the right price. The trade would then have a long-term benefit. (I expect it will be easier to resign Gortat now that he's already a Zard than it would have been to sign him if he had never been on the roster.)

If they resign Gortat, the Zards will have a proven starter at a key position, someone who has shown that he fits in well with the current roster.

I think making the playoffs was important for the franchise and the development of its youngins, and I'm not convinced that a mid- to late-lottery draft pick in this year's draft would have moved the needle a whole lot as far as the Zards being a championship contender.

Wonder if Gortat at about championships or money?

If he is about cash he stays and we overpay.
If he is about championships, there are a lot of better options than Washington

[LyricalRico]

^ You forgot option #3 - he wants to help build a contender in DC.

[Jay81]

Ernie is simply the worst GM to ever walk on face of the earth...in any sport

[Youheardme90]

Youheardme90 just arrived here after a long trip. All this EG business is brand new.

Well, technically I`ve been reading these boards for 8 years. I had another account but I never posted as much with it, and eventually I forgot the name

So, I just made a new one.

There was this guy, Youheardme80. Any relation?

Nah.. No relation. lol

[hands11]

We were comparing franchises so I posted the franchise information.

And, an important part of the franchise information (IMO), is that Charlotte has replaced their GM, and finally has what appears to be a competent GM, who has Charlotte in the playoff within 1 season of taking over, while the Wizards have had EG for around a decade.

The claim was the CHA rebuild was faster than the Wizards. That isn't true. That was the topic. Them getting a new GM doesn't change that.

Now if you want to talk about who is better position to be good moving forward, that's where that information about a new GM would matter.

[hands11]

Zards...we can look at your past posts, and see that you are one of those people that would have done better than EG.

You would have taken Wall. Check.

You would have taken Beal. Check.

You would have taken Khari Leonard. Check.

That in itself already qualifies as making better decisions than Grunfeld.

I don't really care about the Ves pick. Major goof but Kawhi was a boring prospect at the time and we didn't want to get a pure shooter with the 6th overall.

My biggest issue is that Ernie didn't seem to have any plan concerning anything beyond the year in front of him. He constantly drafts for that years situation and that's it. He doesn't acknowledge the potential of certain players to leave the roster in coming years. Passes on Bledsoe and Vasquez in 2010 with the mindset that he's stocked with PG's already, then the very next year uses a 2nd on Shelvin Mack when Parsons was on the board. Drafting a defensive wing specialist over Faried and Tobias Harris was terrible.

The Booker pick was odd as well for a foundation piece. The Satoransky pick was a literal waste. Rice Jr over Jeff Withey was super odd as well given our wing depth.

And for years all we heard was " we need guys to run with John Wall" which is easily the dumbest thing I can possibly imagine hearing.

Great post. And the two year hunt for a back up PG as a result. I really liked Bledsoe and wanted us to draft him if we could that year. He and Wall would have been a great draft.

But its hard for me to focus on picks when I see Randy as the HC. What's the point ? We have Otto and he doesn't even use him. Ves could have been used better but wasn't. I would like the best owner, gm and coach available. Who wouldn't. But right now, they have talent and Randy doesn't come close to maximizing it so that is the thorn in my heel. Because I have to see it almost every game. Its hard to ignore.

[leswizards]

The claim was the CHA rebuild was faster than the Wizards. That isn't true. That was the topic. Them getting a new GM doesn't change that.

You are wrong. Here is the original post:

So the Cats took less time to return to the playoffs then the Wizards.

My fall-back position now is hoping for the Wizards to be decisively swept in the 1st. round, that is my only hope for change in the FO and coaching.

closg made a factual statement. You didn't like the statement and attempted to explain why it should be viewed less favorably than closg made it out to be. Alright, if you are going to do that, include all the facts like they have gone through multiple GMs, and the latest GM has gotten them into the playoffs within 1 season of taking over.

[payitforward]

It's fascinating to read how some posters think they would have made ALL of the right draft and personnel decisions if they had only been GM instead of EG.

In general I agree, BUT in this case there have been folks saying at the time that Grunfeld was making mistakes. Many identified at the time moves that would have been preferable. The only "looking back" required is simply to remind ourselves what folks said at the time.

And those same people said they would miss the playoff this year and that trades that worked .. wouldn't and the sky was falling. There was no path forward. Well we talk about those paths forward all the time here.

No, Hands -- that's not what "those people" said. Unlike you, "those people" actually were right. For example, hands, I predicted 44 wins.

Lots here hated TA and said he was worst ever and way over paid.

No, Hands -- that's not what "lots here" said. Those people -- me among them -- didn't like the trade for Ariza and Okafor. Do you even understand the difference between what one thinks of a player and what one thinks of the trade by which the player is acquired? Try hard to get your brain cells to grok that difference. If you do, you might actually start understanding how good GMs build good teams and how our bad GM assured we'd have a bad one.

They still think Gortat for a mid first was to much. I disagree. Gortat has been amazingly valuable.

Sigh...
No, Hands, that's not what "they" think. Nor is that what the trade was. We traded a guy we'd paid $14m a year for -- a terrible trade; see above -- plus a round 1 pick. And not "for Gortat" either -- what we got was a one-year rental of Gortat. Plus we had to eat every other player Phoenix didn't want and then waive them.

Moreover, would you like me to point you to the post where you, Hands, criticize the trade, gnash your teeth over it. Man you are just impossible.

As to thinking Gortat has been valuable -- as if this required some special insight on your part! He's had a fantastic season. And, as I've mentioned over and over and over -- I've loved Gortat for years. It's not the player, it's the trade that was bad.

...My position is... Would I have done differently.. Yes.. Many things.
Do I think they did it things inefficiently.. yes
Would they have better players with my suggested draft picks.. yes

Actually, I'm pretty sure you have never once pointed to a single thing you would have done differently -- unless you mean keeping Jannero Pargo or how great Jordan Crawford was (a guy who will be out of the league pretty soon).

Nor can I think of a single example where you actually unambiguously said "pick this guy not that guy." Of course, some of the players you've liked have turned out well -- at one time or another you've liked just about every player. Or, do you not want to be reminded that you said Jan Vesely would be a "franchise player." That Chris Singleton was a guy w/ the talent to start as a rookie. That Kevin Seraphin was going to have a big year this year. That Eric Maynor's signing didn't make our off-season worse. How long a list do you want, Hands, of utterly wrong, totally non-functional suggestions.

I don't mind if you have your own ideas. Why shouldn't you. But stop, please, with the BS that you have an edge on the people who actually do know what they are talking about and who actually have named names and stuck w/ those names.