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Roster & Rotation Evaluation

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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#81 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 5, 2020 7:08 pm

The Wizards have made a handful of moves in the last 24 hours. They've waived Justin Robinson and Johnathon Williams. The team had been able to add Payton and Williams thanks to a pair of hardship exceptions allowing them to exceed the roster limit of 15. Those exceptions are expiring and/or healthy players are returning, so moves had to be made to get the roster back down to 15. It looks like they dumped Robinson in order to keep Payton.

The roster now looks like this:
PG Thomas/Smith/Wall
SG Beal/McRae/Payton
SF Brown/Schofield/Miles
PF Hachimura/Bertans/Bonga
C Bryant/Wagner/Mahinmi

2-way: Mathews/Pasečņiks

We still have the $4.3M Disabled Player Exception to use to replace Miles. I believe that means that, when we use it, we will no longer count Miles as part of the 15 man roster and will instead count his replacement.

I'm not sure why Sheppard hasn't actually used it yet. We certainly need help in the front court. It may be that nobody else wants to trade us a useful big man who costs $4.3M or less, and so Sheppard is waiting to see if someone waives or buys out somebody decent before squandering the DPE on a G-League tier guy like Johnathon Williams. But as long as we wait, our effective roster is only 13 players (since Wall and Miles can't play), which is proving difficult while 2 centers and 2 power forwards are out.

I can understand Sheppard hanging onto that DPE. He might use it to absorb a bad salary from an over-the-tax team. But in the meantime, he really ought to think hard about cutting Isaiah Thomas to sign a big man, or trading him for one.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#82 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sun Jan 5, 2020 7:48 pm

Thomas was the last player drafted in the same draft Wall was the first pick. They're connected by a history of playoff games against one another.

I imagine that the Wizards would have a hard time being totally objective in the handling of Isaiah Thomas.




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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#83 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:06 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Thomas was the last player drafted in the same draft Wall was the first pick. They're connected by a history of playoff games against one another.

I imagine that the Wizards would have a hard time being totally objective in the handling of Isaiah Thomas.




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Agree CCJ, it seems him coming here was predicated on assurances that he would be given every opportunity to succeed. Their past playoff clashes seems to have formed a bond based on mutual respect.

Still, if they can move him to a playoff bound team for some kind of future pick (a 2nd round 2021 or 22?) I think it would benefit everyone.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#84 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:09 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:
payitforward wrote:Excellent idea to do this breakdown, SBM. I am more inclined to nod my head at the places where you express doubt than those where you have positive estimations going forward. Just to hit a few high (or maybe I mean not so high...) points:

Rui hasn't shown he can be a starter in this league -- let alone a solid one. He's shown that he isn't a bust, no more.

Wagner hasn't shown he can be a heavy-minute NBA player. He's had a few good games, that's for sure! But he's averaging 8 fouls & 4 TOs per 40 minutes. Still, he has certainly outperformed his rookie year & the expectations created by his SL performance. That's good. But that's all.

Bertans is regressing to the mean pretty quickly. Overall, his numbers are pretty much back down to where they were last year -- tho his outstanding scoring efficiency is on higher usage than last year.

OTOH, McRae has been a bright spot! Bryant was getting back to terrific numbers when he went down; I'm not worried about him. He a good one. Bonga has played quite well overall for a guy picked mid-R2 1 year ago. Brown has been really good too -- esp. for a 20-year old. Mathews has given us plenty to be happy about as well.




I haven't watched tonight's game yet still watching Pats/Titans, have it DVR'd.... I haven't watched the Wizards games as closely as I usually do, and often watch them without audio (I can't stand this new guy so I have music on usually, or a sports talk podcast sometimes).

As far as the draft ... I was high on Anthony, but him tearing his meniscus is a deal breaker for me, plus I had thoughts of moving on from Wall but I have serious doubts at this point on that being plausible. His salary over the last 3years of his contract is insane. A guy that is interesting me is Nesmith, but he isnt projected very high. (His coach is Jerry Stackhouse btw!)



http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/aaron-nesmith.html

But I guess we'll see what our pick is and how that shakes out....


But as far as current roster... Ish is signed next year, and he has been better than I thought. I do like him as a backup for Wall, a dependable vet who plays hard and will keep the pace up when Wall needs a rest.

McRae has been better than I thought and I like him as a backup to Beal, and Matthews as a prospect looks to be worth holding on to and seeing what his upside might be.

Brown is also showing potential given he's only 20, as is Bonga. Between the 2 of them we could end up ok at SF. Admiral has been disappointing so I'm not counting on him at this point. I do wish Brown would step up a bit more on this team with so many injuries the opportunity is there for him.

I like what I've seen of Hachimura. He looks pretty solid , well see how he progresses over the next year. Is he scratching the surface or is this pretty much what he's going to be is the question. If he takes him game up another level then we may have something. Bertans coming back to the mean could be a good thing, I was getting worried he was playing himself out of here. I like him on this team, he fits great, seems to like it here, and I love having his shooting as a weapon off the bench (as well as McRae and Matthews)! I'm hoping we can sign him to like a 3 year deal.

Bryant at center as our starter for the foreseeable future seems fine, and Mo as a energy and hustle guy off the bench seems like a great tandem and I know theyre good friends. Pasecniks seems worthwhile to keep on for big man depth with some potential upside.

All these guys I've liked what I've seen more or less. These are the guys I'd be interested in taking into next season. That's what I've sifted out of this year so far... Isaiah Thomas, CJ Miles, Mahinmi are vets and salaries we can move on from. Admiral and Robinson, etc maybe Go Go bound and opted for this year's draft picks and new acquisitions brought in by Sheppard.


I’d add Payton to the list of keepers
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#85 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:37 pm

Well it appears they're choosing GPII over Robinson. Also over Chiozza I guess, not sure what happened to him. Not sure about his long term chances, but it looks like he'll be given an opportunity for now to show what he's got...

As of now if I'm looking at next year....

Wall, Ish
Beal, McRae, Matthews
TBJ, Bonga
Hachimura, Bertans
Bryant, Wagner, AP

Plus 2020 draft picks (1st round + two 2nd round)

This is what I see as the roster foundation from which additions and other moves can be made using exemptions, trades, and waiver pick-ups, etc. But GPII can certainly play his way into being included in this mix. Admiral also could get into the mix, he seems to be odd man out but I think his contract runs through next season, and he may still turn things around.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#86 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:45 pm

long suffrin' boulez fan wrote:I’d add Payton to the list of keepers


I'm not ready to do that yet.

One problem is that Payton is 27 years old and presumably isn't getting any better. He's helpful now because we have so few experienced basketball players, but next year, we will have a 30-year-old Wall and a 33-year-old Ish Smith manning the PG position. I think our 3rd PG ought to be a youngster we're grooming to ultimately replace Ish when Ish is gone in 2021 - not another veteran role player.

There's also roster spots to consider. Next year, we will definitely have the following players under contract:
Wall
Beal
Brown
Hachimura
Bryant
Wagner
Ish
Schofield
Bonga
2020 1st

We will probably also have:
Bertans
McRae
2020 2nd

That's 13 guys already. There's also Garrison Mathews. And there's the possibility that we use the MLE on a veteran.

I don't think Payton will be that high of a priority. You'd have to either take him over Mathews, refrain from signing a vet, or cut a guaranteed contract. Maybe Mathews could be convinced to sign another 2-Way, but I doubt it. Enough teams saw him this month that I think someone would extend a vet minimum offer. We could match it because he's a RFA, but he would then count for one of our 15 roster spots.

I think Pasečņiks will probably be retained again on a 2-way.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#87 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:47 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Well it appears they're choosing GPII over Robinson. Also over Chiozza I guess, not sure what happened to him. Not sure about his long term chances, but it looks like he'll be given an opportunity for now to show what he's got.

Chiozza was let go in order to sign Pasečņiks.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#88 » by Physhi » Sun Jan 5, 2020 9:52 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Thomas was the last player drafted in the same draft Wall was the first pick. They're connected by a history of playoff games against one another.

I imagine that the Wizards would have a hard time being totally objective in the handling of Isaiah Thomas.




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Thomas was the 2011 draft. Wall was the 2010 draft.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#89 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Mon Jan 6, 2020 8:26 am

Oops...

I stand corrected.
Physhi wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Thomas was the last player drafted in the same draft Wall was the first pick. They're connected by a history of playoff games against one another.

I imagine that the Wizards would have a hard time being totally objective in the handling of Isaiah Thomas.




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Thomas was the 2011 draft. Wall was the 2010 draft.


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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#90 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Wed Jan 8, 2020 12:29 am

Identifying the roster we want to retain to next season, what players would then be considered movable with value to regain assets?

IT and Mahinmi ?

Could either of them bring back a future 2nd from a playoff bound team? Maybe in 2021 or 22 ?
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#91 » by trast66 » Wed Jan 8, 2020 1:35 am

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Identifying the roster we want to retain to next season, what players would then be considered movable with value to regain assets?

IT and Mahinmi ?

Could either of them bring back a future 2nd from a playoff bound team? Maybe in 2021 or 22 ?


On Ian, I don’t see anyone wanting him for payoffs. Maybe someone would give a protected 2nd if we also took back future salary, but that’s a nonstarter.

IT the only hope is some superstar wants him. Like if LeBron loved the guy, the Lakers would trade for him.

Those guys have not been good. Tommy is finding guys off the street better than they are.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#92 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:07 am

Some interesting moves and adjustments being made to the roster.

Waiving Miles and moving AP from 2 way to the open full roster spot, then using the opened 2-way on Johnathan Williams.

The next logical move hopefully is cutting Isaiah Thomas, and maybe even Mahinmi. If we can pick up a 2nd rounder for either of them all the better, but I wouldn't count on it.

But the youth movement is in full force! Also the promoting of AP seems to be in the team's interest as to re-signing of Bertans, being friends from the same country and sharing the same agent. Bertans reportedly really wants to stay here, loves the city, and the feelings seem mutual.


With these moves, trying to project into the off-season and next year....

Bryant, Mo, AP
Hachimura, Bertans, Williams
TBJ, Bonga, Admiral
Beal, McRae, Matthews, GP2
Wall, Ish

I gotta say, I like what Sheppard has done with adding youth, talent, depth in building this roster with limited resources, pretty impressive...

Add to this our up coming draft picks, I believe we have our 1st which could be a high pick, and two 2nd rounders.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#93 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:17 am

Looking at the roster as is, it's really shaped up pretty nicely....

C- Bryant at starting Center, gotta love his hustle and infectious enthusiasm. Mo Wagner off the bench with a similar game and energy. AP as 3rd center big man depth.

PF- Hachimura with his mid range game, Bertans could be the best shooter in the league, Williams adds depth and rebounding.

SF- TBJ is developing nicely as a all around player, Bonga adds length and D with developing skill. Admiral is work in progress depth.

SG- Beal All Star, McRae scorer off the bench, Matthews 3pt ace, GP2 adds needed D.

PG- Wall. Backup Ish. Maybe look here in the draft?

Depending on who we draft guys like Admiral, GPII, Williams, will be fighting for roster spots.

I gotta say , I saw the potential in a lot of these guys and had hopes, but I am pleasantly surprised how well things are coming together. And what's impressive is its up and down the entire roster, every position. Look at center... Bryant, Wagner, Pasecniks... and consider what it cost us to get them. PF Hachimura, Bertans, Williams. Hachimura with the 9th pick, how good Bertans is and how we got him, and he actually wants to stay here! Brown Jr with the 15th pick is looking like he might turn out ok, Bonga another guy picked up for virtually nothing is another one. Garrison Matthews, are you kidding?? And even Ish isn't one of these young guys, but he is an ideal veteran pg that can come in and run a team in any situation. Makes me wish we had moved on from Ernie sooner. I'm actually excited to see what we do this offeason, who we draft, who we pick up, who comes to summer league and training camp etc.

I still am of the opinion for multiple reasons we should be moving on from Wall as soon as possible....
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#94 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:21 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Some interesting moves and adjustments being made to the roster.

Waiving Miles and moving AP from 2 way to the open full roster spot, then using the opened 2-way on Johnathan Williams.

I finally figured out why they went through such convulsions to make this happen rather than simply signing Williams to vet minimum deal.

Pasecniks had already played a bunch of NBA games under his 2-way contract. He only had a couple more weeks left of eligibility in NBA games before he'd have to be sent back to the G-League for the remainder of the season. By giving him an NBA deal, he's eligible to play all year. Meanwhile, Williams on a 2-way is fine because he hasn't used up any of his 45 days of eligibility yet.

I don't think the maneuver is an indication that we will keep either guy beyond this season.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#95 » by nate33 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:33 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Looking at the roster as is, it's really shaped up pretty nicely....

C- Bryant at starting Center, gotta love his hustle and infectious enthusiasm. Mo Wagner off the bench with a similar game and energy. AP as 3rd center big man depth.

PF- Hachimura with his mid range game, Bertans could be the best shooter in the league, Williams adds depth and rebounding.

SF- TBJ is developing nicely as a all around player, Bonga adds length and D with developing skill. Admiral is work in progress depth.

SG- Beal All Star, McRae scorer off the bench, Matthews 3pt ace, GP2 adds needed D.

PG- Wall. Backup Ish. Maybe look here in the draft?

Depending on who we draft guys like Admiral, GPII, Williams, will be fighting for roster spots.

I gotta say , I saw the potential in a lot of these guys and had hopes, but I am pleasantly surprised how well things are coming together. And what's impressive is its up and down the entire roster, every position. Look at center... Bryant, Wagner, Pasecniks... and consider what it cost us to get them. PF Hachimura, Bertans, Williams. Hachimura with the 9th pick, how good Bertans is and how we got him, and he actually wants to stay here! Brown Jr with the 15th pick is looking like he might turn out ok, Bonga another guy picked up for virtually nothing is another one. Garrison Matthews, are you kidding?? And even Ish isn't one of these young guys, but he is an ideal veteran pg that can come in and run a team in any situation. Makes me wish we had moved on from Ernie sooner. I'm actually excited to see what we do this offeason, who we draft, who we pick up, who comes to summer league and training camp etc.

I still am of the opinion for multiple reasons we should be moving on from Wall as soon as possible....

Those are some nice rose-colored glasses you are wearing!

I agree that Sheppard is doing a fine job on the margins finding guys who compete and who could conceivably fight their way into being rotation-caliber players. But let's not overstate his accomplishments.

Teams only go as far as their top tier players - their stars and primary rotation players. Guys like Payton, Pasceniks, Bonga, Williams and Schofield aren't difference makers. They're end-of-the-bench depth, good enough to play on a bad team. Bonga might have more upside, but by the time he realizes it, he'll be a free agent so there still isn't all that much value there. Likewise, McRae and Bertans have been great finds, but they're free agents this offseason and will soon get paid what they're worth and will no longer be values.

The guys that matter are Bryant, Brown and Hachimura. So far, Brown looks like a keeper. There is some hope for Bryant, but so much depends on his defensive development. Hachimura has been pretty bad. Basically, on the 3 guys that matter, I grade Sheppard a C+.

The two surprises have been Wagner and Mathews. Out of nowhere, those two guys look like they might possibly develop into very good players, but it's hard to say for sure because they've played such limited minutes. I'm curious to see what kind of deal they can lock Mathews into. I want him on a long-term contract like Schofield's - locking him up for 3 years at the vet minimum, with team options on the final two.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#96 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:29 pm

Gotta like the progression of TBJ and Bonga, seems our SF position is coming on. That was probably our weakest spot entering the season so that is great to see.

With Mo and AP emerging as solid depth behind Bryant at Center, and Bertans emerging at PF to go with Hachimura, and of course Brad at SG.... Seems to me we can take a flyer on the draft on PG. I like Haliburton, and their are others like Anthony etc, can come in and learn behind Wall and Ish for a year. Then next off-season we might have some options to move Wall if he plays well enough.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#97 » by Illmatic12 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:58 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Gotta like the progression of TBJ and Bonga, seems our SF position is coming on. That was probably our weakest spot entering the season so that is great to see.

With Mo and AP emerging as solid depth behind Bryant at Center, and Bertans emerging at PF to go with Hachimura, and of course Brad at SG.... Seems to me we can take a flyer on the draft on PG. I like Haliburton, and their are others like Anthony etc, can come in and learn behind Wall and Ish for a year. Then next off-season we might have some options to move Wall if he plays well enough.

See I don’t think those SF and C positions are set in stone by any means. Bryant as starting center hasn’t looked that promising defensively (especially if AP and Mo are going to be the backups) so I don’t think Shep will say no to potential upgrades at the 5.

And as much as I enjoy the development of TBJ and Bonga, relying on a pair of inexperienced , skinny 21yo SFs doesn’t sound like a recipe for playoff success next season. I think they’ll either draft a more physically-mature SF or look for a vet FA.

I guess if Bonga can bulk up over the next year, I don’t *hate* the idea of him starting at the 3. He looks on track to be a viable NBA starter at some point in the future, but idk if it’ll be next season. You can’t have a starter putting up 10% usg, he has to be more involved offensively.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#98 » by payitforward » Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:25 pm

nate33 wrote:...I agree that Sheppard is doing a fine job on the margins finding guys who compete and who could conceivably fight their way into being rotation-caliber players. But let's not overstate his accomplishments.

Teams only go as far as their top tier players - their stars and primary rotation players. Guys like Payton, Pasceniks, Bonga, Williams and Schofield aren't difference makers. They're end-of-the-bench depth... Bonga might have more upside, but by the time he realizes it, he'll be a free agent so there still isn't all that much value there.

Schofield might not b an NBA player at all, & Payton is just a body. But, I think you are drastically under-rating Bonga as a prospect, based on a) how good he's already been so far, & b) how young he is. &, I'd describe Pasecniks as an extremely good find, given the zero cost to acquire him. He might never be more than an "end-of-the-bench" player, as you say, but I think he might have the chance to be better than that -- a useful journeyman.

My main point, however, is that you can't judge a GM's player acquisitions w/o taking into account the cost to acquire them.

nate33 wrote:The guys that matter are Bryant, Brown and Hachimura. So far, Brown looks like a keeper. There is some hope for Bryant, but so much depends on his defensive development. Hachimura has been pretty bad. Basically, on the 3 guys that matter, I grade Sheppard a C+....

Again, look at what it cost us to acquire Thomas Bryant (man, have you ever soured on him, btw!). Picking him up was a brilliant move!

nate33 wrote:The two surprises have been Wagner and Mathews. Out of nowhere, those two guys look like they might possibly develop into very good players...

In re: Wagner, you do use the phrase "might possibly," but I still wonder at how quickly you & others have come to your high opinions of the guy! ...of course I hope you are right! :)

Counting Wagner at your estimation of him, this group of players -- Brown, Bryant, Bonga, Schofield, Payton, Mathews, Pasecniks, Wagner, Hachimura, Williams -- have cost us 2 R1 picks plus $2m & a tpe. Oh, & we also got a R2 pick in the bargain!

In fact, leave Brown & Hachimura aside for a moment, & the other 8 guys plus a R2 pick have cost us $2m & a tpe. Moreover, Brown is obviously a very good player to be picked #15 in the draft (giving Tommy credit for the pick tho Ernie was the boss at the time).

Overall, that's pretty tremendous work. Even if Hachimura turns out to be a total whiff on Tommy's part. For 8 months on the job... I'm impressed!
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#99 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:11 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
SUPERBALLMAN wrote:Gotta like the progression of TBJ and Bonga, seems our SF position is coming on. That was probably our weakest spot entering the season so that is great to see.

With Mo and AP emerging as solid depth behind Bryant at Center, and Bertans emerging at PF to go with Hachimura, and of course Brad at SG.... Seems to me we can take a flyer on the draft on PG. I like Haliburton, and their are others like Anthony etc, can come in and learn behind Wall and Ish for a year. Then next off-season we might have some options to move Wall if he plays well enough.

See I don’t think those SF and C positions are set in stone by any means. Bryant as starting center hasn’t looked that promising defensively (especially if AP and Mo are going to be the backups) so I don’t think Shep will say no to potential upgrades at the 5.

And as much as I enjoy the development of TBJ and Bonga, relying on a pair of inexperienced , skinny 21yo SFs doesn’t sound like a recipe for playoff success next season. I think they’ll either draft a more physically-mature SF or look for a vet FA.

I guess if Bonga can bulk up over the next year, I don’t *hate* the idea of him starting at the 3. He looks on track to be a viable NBA starter at some point in the future, but idk if it’ll be next season. You can’t have a starter putting up 10% usg, he has to be more involved offensively.

I think Superballman's point that SF is not a high priority in this draft is accurate. You may be right that they'll look to add a SF vet like maybe Mo Harkless rather than rely on a pair of 21 year olds, but I don't think they'll draft a SF with their 1st.

I agree that our center position is not set in stone at all. There is a log jam though. It would be real hard to find minutes to develop Bryant, Wagner our 1st round pick, and perhaps Pasecniks. If we did draft a center, I'd look to trade someone.

I'd like to see them draft a guard in this draft. Ish Smith is a stopgap and Wall probably won't play heavy minutes ever again. There's enough minutes available to bring along a quality combo guard like Hayes or Halliburton. If things go well, the draft pick will be ready to start by the time Wall's contract is up (or maybe a year earlier if Wall is moved). We can't be sure Beal will be here forever either.

We also have a hole at PF, but it's probably best to give Hachimura another year to see if he projects to be an above-average starter there.
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Re: Roster, Rotation, and Player Evaluations 

Post#100 » by nate33 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:29 pm

payitforward wrote:Counting Wagner at your estimation of him, this group of players -- Brown, Bryant, Bonga, Schofield, Payton, Mathews, Pasecniks, Wagner, Hachimura, Williams -- have cost us 2 R1 picks plus $2m & a tpe. Oh, & we also got a R2 pick in the bargain!

In fact, leave Brown & Hachimura aside for a moment, & the other 8 guys plus a R2 pick have cost us $2m & a tpe. Moreover, Brown is obviously a very good player to be picked #15 in the draft (giving Tommy credit for the pick tho Ernie was the boss at the time).

Overall, that's pretty tremendous work. Even if Hachimura turns out to be a total whiff on Tommy's part. For 8 months on the job... I'm impressed!

Don't get me wrong. What I love about Sheppard is he finds his depth the right way. He gets them for free, he gets them young, and he gets them cheap. No more signing Jason Smith to a $5M-a-year contract when Pasecniks is available for the vet minimum. No more paying Jodie Meeks $3.2M a year when Jordan McRae is much better and costs nothing. Don't pay for an aging, declining Trevor Ariza when Isaac Bonga can give you most of the production while also some hope for future upside.

I'm just saying that most of the guys we have aren't yet better than 10th man caliber guys on a good team. They haven't yet proven to be building blocks for the future. We need stars and building blocks, and so far, Troy Brown is the only guy that's almost certain to be one. We're a long long way away from mattering again as a team.

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