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John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III

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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1461 » by Shanghai Kid » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:31 pm

AFM wrote:Just curious who thinks Wall and/or Beal is better than Arenas?


Neither of them is touching 05-07 Arenas. Gilbert with bad shot selection still did 29ppg on 58% TS. Also Gilbert actually lead the entire league in offensive box minus in 2007.

A big thing with Gilbert is that he actually was able to do a lot of the off-ball stuff Beal does, but than in the 4th quartes he would become ball dominant like Wall but actually close games.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1462 » by Illmatic12 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:57 pm

Shanghai Kid wrote:
AFM wrote:Just curious who thinks Wall and/or Beal is better than Arenas?


Neither of them is touching 05-07 Arenas. Gilbert with bad shot selection still did 29ppg on 58% TS. Also Gilbert actually lead the entire league in offensive box minus in 2007.

A big thing with Gilbert is that he actually was able to do a lot of the off-ball stuff Beal does, but than in the 4th quartes he would become ball dominant like Wall but actually close games.

Arenas was simply a masterful offensive player. Eddie Jordan forced Gil to learn the Princeton offense, which ultimately helped him develop equal skill level on or off the ball.

Gil talks about it in the interview below (starting at the ~22 min mark, but the whole convo is great)

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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1463 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:18 pm

queridiculo wrote:
AFM wrote:Just curious who thinks Wall and/or Beal is better than Arenas?


Arenas was legit one of the top 5 players in the league when he was on top of his game, neither of those two have been close.

I could see Beal elevate his game to get into the top 10 conversation in the right environment, but I think for Wall improvement will only be incremental and even that will require Wall to have a come to Jesus moment to address some of the warts in his game.

Shot selection, defense, turnovers, off the ball play.

He was never top 5. More like top 10-12. But your point stands. That's better than anything Wall and Beal have done. Wall might have sniffed top 15 two years ago when he made All-NBA 3rd team, but he hasn't maintained it. Arenas had a 3-year run as a top 10-12 player, making All NBA 3rd team twice and the 2nd team once.

It sure would have been interesting to see Gilbert Arenas under the modern rules. He'd be at least as good as Damian Lillard and maybe as good as Harden.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1464 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:54 pm

Illmatic12 wrote:
Shanghai Kid wrote:
AFM wrote:Just curious who thinks Wall and/or Beal is better than Arenas?


Neither of them is touching 05-07 Arenas. Gilbert with bad shot selection still did 29ppg on 58% TS. Also Gilbert actually lead the entire league in offensive box minus in 2007.

A big thing with Gilbert is that he actually was able to do a lot of the off-ball stuff Beal does, but than in the 4th quartes he would become ball dominant like Wall but actually close games.

Arenas was simply a masterful offensive player. Eddie Jordan forced Gil to learn the Princeton offense, which ultimately helped him develop equal skill level on or off the ball.

Gil talks about it in the interview below (starting at the ~22 min mark, but the whole convo is great)



This is a great interview!
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1465 » by I_Like_Dirt » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:40 pm

nate33 wrote:It sure would have been interesting to see Gilbert Arenas under the modern rules. He'd be at least as good as Damian Lillard and maybe as good as Harden.


I actually see Arenas as one of the better examples of how the modern rules haven't actually been as dramatic of a help for offensive players as people think. Handchecking helped, but team defense helps more. Modern defenses are simply better than old school defenses and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go back and watch those old timey defenses again. They were good for their day but they were slow and often didn't pick anyone up until the free throw line and guys were taking breaks all over the floor and just grabbing a bit to stay with their man. Arenas and Lillard are rather remarkably similar statistically as it is and I think they're rather good comparisons for each other, though Arenas was always a little more unstable than your average NBA star.

I do think Arenas would be better in today's league, though, not because of the defensive rules but because the league now understands how better to exploit his game. He was way ahead of his time. Eddie Jordan helped him a lot, thankfully, but the post-D'Antoni/Nash NBA is just ridiculous. Teams are realizing that the notion that you could get an open 3 whenever so to try to work the shot clock hoping for a breakdown and then launching a 3 only as a last resort because you couldn't always get one and structured your team with fewer shooters to try and score before trying a 3 was a terrible idea. Let the scorers score from all over the floor whenever they can, 3s are better than 2s, and it's easier to get an open shot if the opposing defense isn't set or even all back yet. Those are things that make so much sense but took the NBA forever to realize. And no, those old-timey defenses couldn't handle guys who could shoot from anywhere and everywhere and rain 30-footers with 20 seconds left on the shot clock. It's just that there weren't so many players that could do those things back then and even the few that were wound up somewhat misused because teams didn't fully understand their value.

I also would have loved to see Arenas in an era where he wasn't run 40+ mpg at every opportunity. Just a sad ending to a brilliant career.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1466 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:31 pm

nate33 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:Arenas was legit one of the top 5 players in the league when he was on top of his game....

He was never top 5. More like top 10-12....

'05-6 was his best year, & I'm not sure he was in the top 10 among guards let alone in the league overall.

Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Manu Ginobili, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, Josh Childress, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker... & a few other guards had really great seasons that year.

Arenas at his peak was a wonderful player, an exceptional scorer, & an incredibly entertaining player with a tremendous gift for the dramatic & a really great on-court demeanor. I loved watching him.

But, to rank him as high as you do, it is necessary to over-emphasize, concentrate on, the "points per game" stat.

Still... he was just terrific.

nate33 wrote:It sure would have been interesting to see Gilbert Arenas under the modern rules. He'd be at least as good as Damian Lillard and maybe as good as Harden.

Now that really is an interesting question. Now imagine Dwyane Wade under those rules! Whooah!
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1467 » by Dat2U » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:43 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:Arenas was legit one of the top 5 players in the league when he was on top of his game....

He was never top 5. More like top 10-12....

'05-6 was his best year, & I'm not sure he was in the top 10 among guards let alone in the league overall.

Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Manu Ginobili, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, Josh Childress, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker... & a few other guards had really great seasons that year.

Arenas at his peak was a wonderful player, an exceptional scorer, & an incredibly entertaining player with a tremendous gift for the dramatic & a really great on-court demeanor. I loved watching him.

But, to rank him as high as you do, it is necessary to over-emphasize, concentrate on, the "points per game" stat.

Still... he was just terrific.

nate33 wrote:It sure would have been interesting to see Gilbert Arenas under the modern rules. He'd be at least as good as Damian Lillard and maybe as good as Harden.

Now that really is an interesting question. Now imagine Dwyane Wade under those rules! Whooah!


Mike Miller? Ugh. Maybe I became a hater when I saw him in DC but that guy was the perfect example of an advanced stats king who consistently hurt his team because he would literally refuse to take shots at times. He would pass up wide open looks to force teammates to take contested shots. It was so frustrating to watch.

At least Otto has the shot creation excuse to explain his limited attempts. Miller didnt have that concern. He just didn't want to shoot.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1468 » by Dat2U » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:46 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:Arenas was legit one of the top 5 players in the league when he was on top of his game....

He was never top 5. More like top 10-12....

'05-6 was his best year, & I'm not sure he was in the top 10 among guards let alone in the league overall.

Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Manu Ginobili, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, Josh Childress, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker... & a few other guards had really great seasons that year.

Arenas at his peak was a wonderful player, an exceptional scorer, & an incredibly entertaining player with a tremendous gift for the dramatic & a really great on-court demeanor. I loved watching him.

But, to rank him as high as you do, it is necessary to over-emphasize, concentrate on, the "points per game" stat.

Still... he was just terrific.

nate33 wrote:It sure would have been interesting to see Gilbert Arenas under the modern rules. He'd be at least as good as Damian Lillard and maybe as good as Harden.

Now that really is an interesting question. Now imagine Dwyane Wade under those rules! Whooah!


Also any list that has Josh Childress as better than Gil is probably a list that shouldn't be relied upon.

I dont care if Childress rebounded well for his position or had few TOs and made 4 of the 7 shots he took per game. He does NOT belong on any list ahead of Arenas.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1469 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 4:38 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
queridiculo wrote:Arenas was legit one of the top 5 players in the league when he was on top of his game....

He was never top 5. More like top 10-12....

'05-6 was his best year, & I'm not sure he was in the top 10 among guards let alone in the league overall.

Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Manu Ginobili, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, Josh Childress, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker... & a few other guards had really great seasons that year.

It's tedious having this argument with you, over and over.

You are welcome to your opinion, but nobody associated with the NBA believed that Tony Parker, Andrew Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells or Josh freaking Childress were better than Gilbert Arenas in 2005/06. I don't care what Wins Produced says.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1470 » by Shanghai Kid » Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:02 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:He was never top 5. More like top 10-12....

'05-6 was his best year, & I'm not sure he was in the top 10 among guards let alone in the league overall.

Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Chris Paul, Manu Ginobili, Dwyane Wade, Andre Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells, Josh Childress, Paul Pierce, Tony Parker... & a few other guards had really great seasons that year.

It's tedious having this argument with you, over and over.

You are welcome to your opinion, but nobody associated with the NBA believed that Tony Parker, Andrew Iguodala, Mike Miller, Bonzi Wells or Josh freaking Childress were better than Gilbert Arenas in 2005/06. I don't care what Wins Produced says.


I can understand the argument for Tony Parker, but Bonzi/Childress/Miller puts you in "gimmick poster" territory.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1471 » by Gig18 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:19 pm

Gil was a great, great offensive player, and incredibly fun to watch.
But in his biggest moments, he shrank. Missing those two free throws in the playoffs with Lebron whispering in his ear.

and, of course, being such a knucklehead that he brought GUNS to work ...
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1472 » by Shanghai Kid » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:15 pm

Gig18 wrote:Gil was a great, great offensive player, and incredibly fun to watch.
But in his biggest moments, he shrank. Missing those two free throws in the playoffs with Lebron whispering in his ear.

and, of course, being such a knucklehead that he brought GUNS to work ...



Actually in that very game he hit a 3-pointer with 3 seconds left to get it to overtime. Also the game before he hit two free throws with 3 seconds left when down 1. And in the pivotal game 5 against Chicago he hit the game winner. He had several more moments of clutch than not.

The playoff series itself against Cleveland he averaged 34/5/5 on 59% TS
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1473 » by nate33 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:07 pm

Shanghai Kid wrote:
Gig18 wrote:Gil was a great, great offensive player, and incredibly fun to watch.
But in his biggest moments, he shrank. Missing those two free throws in the playoffs with Lebron whispering in his ear.

and, of course, being such a knucklehead that he brought GUNS to work ...



Actually in that very game he hit a 3-pointer with 3 seconds left to get it to overtime. Also the game before he hit two free throws with 3 seconds left when down 1. And in the pivotal game 5 against Chicago he hit the game winner. He had several more moments of clutch than not.

The playoff series itself against Cleveland he averaged 34/5/5 on 59% TS

Saying that Gil shrunk in his biggest moments has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. How many last second three points shots did he hit? I remember at one point, he was 6-11 on 3-pointers at the buzzer from outside of 35 feet.

Him missing those free throws was perhaps the only time in his career that I can remember him NOT being clutch.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1474 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:48 pm

Dat2U wrote:Mike Miller? Ugh. Maybe I became a hater when I saw him in DC but that guy was the perfect example of an advanced stats king who consistently hurt his team because he would literally refuse to take shots at times. He would pass up wide open looks to force teammates to take contested shots. It was so frustrating to watch....

Interestingly, what you describe really did characterize the 2d half of his career. It began his last year in Minny when his FGAs per 40 minutes suddenly dropped by 30%, then it continued w/ us & thereafter. But in '04-5 & '05-6, he had really outstanding seasons.

Gilbert was really good both those years too. Not trying to knock one of my favorite players ever to watch! But, ranking him in the top 10 players even in those years means ignoring not just the guards I mentioned but also Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, Andrei Kirilenko (who killed it in '05-06), Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Tyson Chandler, Marcus Camby (big year from him), LeBron, Elton Brand, Dwight Howard, Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Yao Ming, Shaq, Pau Gasol, Chris Bosh....

You can argue about 1 or 2 or 3 if you want, but, come on... that's a long long list (w/o even mentioning the previous list of guards). There's just no way to maintain the idea that Gilbert was in the top dozen players in the league once you're reminded of those guys.

Still pretty great, though.

Edit: did I forget to mention Kobe Bryant? Why, yes, I did.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1475 » by DCZards » Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:50 pm

Shanghai Kid wrote:
Gig18 wrote:Gil was a great, great offensive player, and incredibly fun to watch.
But in his biggest moments, he shrank. Missing those two free throws in the playoffs with Lebron whispering in his ear.

and, of course, being such a knucklehead that he brought GUNS to work ...



Actually in that very game he hit a 3-pointer with 3 seconds left to get it to overtime. Also the game before he hit two free throws with 3 seconds left when down 1. And in the pivotal game 5 against Chicago he hit the game winner. He had several more moments of clutch than not.

The playoff series itself against Cleveland he averaged 34/5/5 on 59% TS


Yup...can't call this shrinking in a big moment.



Loved the excitement Gil brought to DC's Chinatown! Guy could score from pretty much anywhere on the court. He'd casually dribble upcourt and hit DEEP threes a la Steph Curry.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1476 » by payitforward » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:41 pm

No question about it.

Basketball is 2 pretty different things, both of them excting -- it's competition, & it's entertainment.

Competition is decided by the numbers. Hit a 3-pointer in the first quarter or w/ 3 seconds left in the game & they each count for 3 points towards that win/loss decision.

But, the entertainment value of those two shots is altogether different. & Gilbert was the master of entertainment in that dramatic sense. He was awesome to watch!
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1477 » by Illmatic12 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:24 am

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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1478 » by queridiculo » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:59 am

Assuming Wall stays healthy he should catch Jeff Malone (edited) for second all time before the All-Star break.

Also worth noting, if Beal keeps it up he's got a good chance to move into third all time behind John Wall sometime around All-Star break of next season.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1479 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:03 pm

queridiculo wrote:Assuming Wall stays healthy he should catch Moses Malone for second all time before the All-Star break.

Also worth noting, if Beal keeps it up he's got a good chance to move into third all time behind John Wall sometime around All-Star break of next season.

Correction: Jeff Malone.

I was confused for a minute there. I didn't think Moses was with us for that long.

Code: Select all

1.   Elvin Hayes*   15551
2.   Jeff Malone    11083
3.   John Wall      10650
4.   Wes Unseld*    10624
5.   Kevin Loughery  9833
6.   Gus Johnson*    9781
7.   Phil Chenier    9778
8.   Walt Bellamy*   9020
9.   Gilbert Arenas  8930
10.  Antawn Jamison  8736

??   Bradley Beal    8026
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1480 » by JWizmentality » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:43 pm

Did....did someone just say that Gil shrank in big moments??? :o

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