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John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III

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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1681 » by King Ken » Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:56 am

His form really improved as well. I think a lean Wall is a good Wall.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1682 » by doclinkin » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:57 pm

King Ken wrote:His form really improved as well. I think a lean Wall is a good Wall.


He's in better shape than most human beings on earth. But he definitely is lacking the superior lift he used to have. Doesn't mean he won't be a better player even if he's more floorbound, but if you look at highlights from his highschool tape or early in his career, he had a slingshot quick first step off either foot and when he jumped he had time to walk around in zero gravity and make a decision what to do up there. This Wall is thicker in the upper torso, shoulders etc, but hmm. His starter gun sprint has a little lag. Comparatively. It'll be interesting to see.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1683 » by pcbothwel » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:08 pm

doclinkin wrote:
King Ken wrote:His form really improved as well. I think a lean Wall is a good Wall.


He's in better shape than most human beings on earth. But he definitely is lacking the superior lift he used to have. Doesn't mean he won't be a better player even if he's more floorbound, but if you look at highlights from his highschool tape or early in his career, he had a slingshot quick first step off either foot and when he jumped he had time to walk around in zero gravity and make a decision what to do up there. This Wall is thicker in the upper torso, shoulders etc, but hmm. His starter gun sprint has a little lag. Comparatively. It'll be interesting to see.


Ehh... I dont think thats an injury issue... He is turning 30 and put on about 15 lbs since he was 18. I think his strength and overall IQ will actually get him to the FT line just as much as he ever has, but with less toll on his body.

Again, I've bought in on Wall 2.0. I think he has a really solid 3-4 year run left in him not unlike Jason Kidd.
Im looking around the league and the PG landscape is not as burgeoning as it was just 2-3 years ago.
30+: CP3 looks real good, but hes always between injuries while Westbrook and Conley look cooked. Steph & Lowry are great as always, but age and injury appear to be moving fast on them too. (Yes, I know how great Steph is, but his defense has plummeted in the last 2 years)

The mid/late 20's group (Young Vets): This was the group that was supposed to take over, and while Lillard has certainly done that, Kyrie's crazy/always hurt, Jrue, Brogdan & Bledsoe are coming back to earth after a stellar 18/19, Jamal Murray, D'angelo Russell, and Ben Simmons seem to have plateaued and/or been injured. Then you have Exum, Fultz, Dennis Smith, Frank N, Mudiay,

The next crop: This is where things get interesting. All these shoot first Guards certainly get acclaim, but Trae Young, Fox, Coby White, Sexton, Garland, etc. cant defend there own shadow.
Seriously, Wall-Beal-Brown-Rui-Bryant lineup... where do you hide Trae?
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1684 » by King Ken » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:06 pm

pcbothwel wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
King Ken wrote:His form really improved as well. I think a lean Wall is a good Wall.


He's in better shape than most human beings on earth. But he definitely is lacking the superior lift he used to have. Doesn't mean he won't be a better player even if he's more floorbound, but if you look at highlights from his highschool tape or early in his career, he had a slingshot quick first step off either foot and when he jumped he had time to walk around in zero gravity and make a decision what to do up there. This Wall is thicker in the upper torso, shoulders etc, but hmm. His starter gun sprint has a little lag. Comparatively. It'll be interesting to see.


Ehh... I dont think thats an injury issue... He is turning 30 and put on about 15 lbs since he was 18. I think his strength and overall IQ will actually get him to the FT line just as much as he ever has, but with less toll on his body.

Again, I've bought in on Wall 2.0. I think he has a really solid 3-4 year run left in him not unlike Jason Kidd.
Im looking around the league and the PG landscape is not as burgeoning as it was just 2-3 years ago.
30+: CP3 looks real good, but hes always between injuries while Westbrook and Conley look cooked. Steph & Lowry are great as always, but age and injury appear to be moving fast on them too. (Yes, I know how great Steph is, but his defense has plummeted in the last 2 years)

The mid/late 20's group (Young Vets): This was the group that was supposed to take over, and while Lillard has certainly done that, Kyrie's crazy/always hurt, Jrue, Brogdan & Bledsoe are coming back to earth after a stellar 18/19, Jamal Murray, D'angelo Russell, and Ben Simmons seem to have plateaued and/or been injured. Then you have Exum, Fultz, Dennis Smith, Frank N, Mudiay,

The next crop: This is where things get interesting. All these shoot first Guards certainly get acclaim, but Trae Young, Fox, Coby White, Sexton, Garland, etc. cant defend there own shadow.
Seriously, Wall-Beal-Brown-Rui-Bryant lineup... where do you hide Trae?

People forget Wall isn't just the most athletic PG to play the game, he is probably the most naturally talented. I think he will recover to a large degree.

Trae is not a bad man defender. He is a terrible team defender. I think the reputation of Trae Young defense is worse than the reality as someone who watches every game and many, multiple times.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1685 » by payitforward » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:09 pm

You know what? The more air you pump into a balloon the bigger it gets. Isn't that great?

Unfortunately, John Wall is not a balloon. You can't add any air. You can't make him any bigger or better than he is.

John Wall is a tremendous player, an outstanding NBA PG. But, in 10 seasons, John Wall has never been the best PG in the game for even a single season. He's never been the 2d best PG in the game in a single season. & he's never been the 3d best PG in the game for a single season. &, I could continue the series for a few more repetitions & still be correct.

Sorry. That's just how it is.

As to a comparison with Chris Paul... that's plain ludicrous. Chris Paul is one of the best players in the history of the game.

A good way to write nonsense: "CP3 looks real good, but he's always between injuries." Over his far longer career than John Wall, CP3 has averaged @2375 minutes a year. In John's first 9 years he averaged @2275 minutes a year. Then he missed the whole of this year.
Remember -- if you don't like the post above: blame Doc not me.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1686 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:55 am

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y3pk85ul

Woo wee, I hadn't read this thread at all, pif! This AFTER posting that above!!!


payitforward wrote:You know what? The more air you pump into a balloon the bigger it gets. Isn't that great?

Unfortunately, John Wall is not a balloon. You can't add any air. You can't make him any bigger or better than he is.

John Wall is a tremendous player, an outstanding NBA PG. But, in 10 seasons, John Wall has never been the best PG in the game for even a single season. He's never been the 2d best PG in the game in a single season. & he's never been the 3d best PG in the game for a single season. &, I could continue the series for a few more repetitions & still be correct.

Sorry. That's just how it is.

As to a comparison with Chris Paul... that's plain ludicrous. Chris Paul is one of the best players in the history of the game.

A good way to write nonsense: "CP3 looks real good, but he's always between injuries." Over his far longer career than John Wall, CP3 has averaged @2375 minutes a year. In John's first 9 years he averaged @2275 minutes a year. Then he missed the whole of this year.



:nod:
2020 Wizards SHOULD Draft:

(Unless they move up in the top to draft Wiseman/Okongwu)

JALEN SMITH and either Xavier Tillman, Paul Reed, Udoka Azubuike, or TYLER BEY (if they get lucky and he slips in the draft).
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1687 » by pcbothwel » Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:35 pm

payitforward wrote:You know what? The more air you pump into a balloon the bigger it gets. Isn't that great?

Unfortunately, John Wall is not a balloon. You can't add any air. You can't make him any bigger or better than he is.

John Wall is a tremendous player, an outstanding NBA PG. But, in 10 seasons, John Wall has never been the best PG in the game for even a single season. He's never been the 2d best PG in the game in a single season. & he's never been the 3d best PG in the game for a single season. &, I could continue the series for a few more repetitions & still be correct.

Sorry. That's just how it is.

As to a comparison with Chris Paul... that's plain ludicrous. Chris Paul is one of the best players in the history of the game.

A good way to write nonsense: "CP3 looks real good, but he's always between injuries." Over his far longer career than John Wall, CP3 has averaged @2375 minutes a year. In John's first 9 years he averaged @2275 minutes a year. Then he missed the whole of this year.


PIF.
I'm fascinated by your ability to overlook an entire message in the macro and bogged down in odd details. My point has nothing to do with Chris Paul, who has been a significantly better player than John Wall in every facet of basketball for 15 years (Happy?).
The point is:
1) Wall looks in Tremendous shape and appears to have found his love of basketball again while maturing in his personal life. Assuming he isnt put in position to lead the team (Beal) and he has legit scorers around him (Bertans, Rui, Bryant), then I think he comes back a better player (Efficiency/Per Possession) than we have seen in 4-5 years.

2) The PG landscape was quite daunting 3-5 years ago, but now look around. Here are the best players over the last two years at PG and there ages for the 20/21 season:
CP3 (36), Lowry (35), Lillard (30), Irving (29), Curry (33), Bledsoe (31), Kemba (30), Conley (33), Westbrook (32), Jrue (30)
- Wall is younger than most of them, which is surprising.
- Since Wall went down with the heel injury, Curry, Westbrook & Conley have started to decline...while Jrue, Kemba, Brogdan, and Bledsoe have settled back down to earth. CP3 and Lowry looked great this year, but they are hitting unprecedented territory given their age/miles/league pace.
- Im also saying that many of the younger guys who excited early on (Fox, J. Murray, Ball, Simmons, D. Murray) have clearly stagnated for any number of reasons.

Im simply showing a clear path about how John could be a top 10 PG over the next 3 years quite easily, and top 5-7 if things break right.... No balloons necessary.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1688 » by dlts20 » Wed Sep 9, 2020 11:19 pm

There was a thread on the gb asking what can the Bucks do to get better and I said take a chance on John Wall. Eventually I even posted this highlight video of Wall against the Hawks in the playoffs to show that he's a gamer. I posted it because I remember that he was great in that series but I didn't watch the video. Then later I came to post on it because I remember there were 2 special highlight dunks he had in that series that I liked so I pushed play to watch a few seconds.

When I tell you that I remembered the meaning of out of sight, out of mind. Prime John Wall was special. I couldn't stop the video. To me, that Wall is more exciting than guys like Morant who people think are the most exciting. Wall has never even really gotten to play full time in a 1 big offense. That Wall looks like he could kill these new guards if he serious and focus like I think that he is now. He will win comeback player of the year.

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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1689 » by pcbothwel » Wed Sep 9, 2020 11:42 pm

Agreed... You can also see the interview in the Beal thread that Wall gave... the dude is completely bought into Beal being the guy and him being to play more off the ball and conserving energy.
I see a healthy, focused Wall on less usage and humbled mind a far more dangerous player than people realize. I was thoroughly surprised in that interview about his perceptions about the way the league has moved and how he sees the next 4-5 years of his career maturing.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1690 » by Shoe » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:25 am

I don't buy that Walls achilles injury is a deathblow like it was for Rose. Rose's game relied on explosiveness similar to Westbrook. Wall wasn't a jetpack leaper or crazy hang time finisher. Also was more pick and roll reliant than using the first step burst in isolation. He just needs to commit to moving without the ball, and even slow movement would be a major upgrade over the statuesque Wall of 2018.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1691 » by pcbothwel » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:33 pm

Shoe wrote:I don't buy that Walls achilles injury is a deathblow like it was for Rose. Rose's game relied on explosiveness similar to Westbrook. Wall wasn't a jetpack leaper or crazy hang time finisher. Also was more pick and roll reliant than using the first step burst in isolation. He just needs to commit to moving without the ball, and even slow movement would be a major upgrade over the statuesque Wall of 2018.


This.
Again, He could of said a bunch of delusional nonsense that still shows he thinks he's the primary weapon...
But he didnt. He made it clear that Beal with the Ball in his hands is deadly:
I'm happy not being on the ball 24/7, that Sh*t is tiring....
Brad tells me all the time "You always gotta be ready, even when the ball is not in your hands, so dont put your hands on your knees. Always be shot ready... those are the types of things Im seeing throughout film when I'm watching over the lat year and a half....
I don't have to take bad shots at times. I'm able to spot up or cut backdoor, Brad gets the ball in transition, and I can run the floor and be the opposite of what he used to be when I go the ball.


Tommy Sheppard:
With john out Brad became he probably is our very best playmaker...We look at John and Bradley as kind of co-point guards and they can both play off the ball. That's going to be important for john when he comes back to you know his usage will go down certainly because it makes him a better weapon... especially as we saw his jump shot improve, he's going to be able to play off the ball a little bit and we can maximize his ability to get open...We got to defend better but i think we really will with john back because john was on the all defensive team. Nobody seems to recall that but he's capable of being one of the better defenders in the NBA
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1692 » by nate33 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:57 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Agreed... You can also see the interview in the Beal thread that Wall gave... the dude is completely bought into Beal being the guy and him being to play more off the ball and conserving energy.
I see a healthy, focused Wall on less usage and humbled mind a far more dangerous player than people realize. I was thoroughly surprised in that interview about his perceptions about the way the league has moved and how he sees the next 4-5 years of his career maturing.

He is certainly saying the right things, but I'm not all that confident he has bought in. I'll believe it when I see Wall making some backdoor cuts.

Up until now, Wall has been possibly the worst off-ball player in the league, with an embarrassing lack of movement and energy. I still can't get over that stat that Wall moved less than everyone in the league except 39-year-old Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know if a leopard can change his spots at age 30. I fear Brooks will have no choice to put the ball in Wall's hands whenever he is on the floor, which will limit the effectiveness of Beal. It'll be much like the problems Houston had trying to optimize the Westbrook/Harden combo.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1693 » by pcbothwel » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:32 pm

nate33 wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:Agreed... You can also see the interview in the Beal thread that Wall gave... the dude is completely bought into Beal being the guy and him being to play more off the ball and conserving energy.
I see a healthy, focused Wall on less usage and humbled mind a far more dangerous player than people realize. I was thoroughly surprised in that interview about his perceptions about the way the league has moved and how he sees the next 4-5 years of his career maturing.

He is certainly saying the right things, but I'm not all that confident he has bought in. I'll believe it when I see Wall making some backdoor cuts.

Up until now, Wall has been possibly the worst off-ball player in the league, with an embarrassing lack of movement and energy. I still can't get over that stat that Wall moved less than everyone in the league except 39-year-old Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know if a leopard can change his spots at age 30. I fear Brooks will have no choice to put the ball in Wall's hands whenever he is on the floor, which will limit the effectiveness of Beal. It'll be much like the problems Houston had trying to optimize the Westbrook/Harden combo.


Understood, but disagree... go listen to Tommy Sheppard and there is no ambiguity. Everything he says has a clear theme, which is: These are the things John, and others, must do to compliment our star Bradley Beal.
Add to that the contract status and age of both and its clear... If Sheppard even gets a hint that Beal is unhappy with the dynamic, he will do whatever needs to be done, including slapping Brooks.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1694 » by doclinkin » Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:35 pm

nate33 wrote:He is certainly saying the right things, but I'm not all that confident he has bought in. I'll believe it when I see Wall making some backdoor cuts.

Up until now, Wall has been possibly the worst off-ball player in the league, with an embarrassing lack of movement and energy. I still can't get over that stat that Wall moved less than everyone in the league except 39-year-old Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know if a leopard can change his spots at age 30.


Then you're missing half the story.

Wall doesn't complain about it, but if you listen to guys like Kemba Walker people don't understand how much pain Wall was playing through with the bone spurs in his heels in particular. He was trying to be a hero to fight through it, as he did in any other injuries he had, but it absolutely limited his motion and energy. The Dirk stat was from just before he went on IR and needed surgery, it is not cumulative throughout his career. Ditto his defensive inactivity, that was a significant difference from earlier in his career, and we saw his defense show up in big games. On those nights he raised his game and dealt with the pain after.

Did John stand around ballwatching on offense before that? Yes he did (though he was generally a good offensive rebounder for a guard). Still his training was under Calipari's Dribble Drive Motion offense, which is predicated on drive and kick where players pretty much strafe in from the outside as ball handlers, and fill in the empty spots on the perimeter waiting the re-set pass to drive again. The offense basically tells you to float around on the perimeter and clear out of the way. The Big (one, single Big only) is posted away from the ball to leave room for dribble penetration.

Wall's handle and speed at that level worked well, and were the primary weapons that got him into the league, he didn't have to rely on his jumper or back cuts etc. In the NBA his coaches pretty much used him that way. Now he has had 2 years to read defenses and see the small ball revolution and GSW pace and space dominance. And James Harden doing what he does, despite limited quick twitch speed.

Now we have Wall returning without shards of glass in his heels. Having heard for 2 years how people doubt him. While he had surgery for a partially torn achilles, and an infection from the other operations where he heard doubts whether he would ever play again. Meanwhile he became a dad, and lost his mom. Flip Saunders called him the smartest basketball mind he ever coached (the quote was given AFTER Flip left the team). Other coaches have similar praise for his grasp of the game. You can doubt if he can change, but it seems to me that it happens all the time that a young player will mature. Especially after significant events. Birth of a child. Losing a loved one. Hell, partying less. OR nearly losing your ability to play the game you loved. These are the things that can change and mature you. Players do improve. Especially with health. With a defect removed.

I fully expect to see a high defense Wall, doing whatever he can to make his team better. He's always been a pass first point guard, being team first when he has the ball in his hands. I fully expect he sees how he can make his team better by cuts and screens and getting open for a jumper. If his jumper has improved. Before, his jumper was not a reliable enough weapon for that to be the best choice. Fortunately a jumper is one of the few things that can reliably improve over a players career. That, cutting down fouls, reducing TO's are the stats that do shift over time.

(And if John has lost a half step on his drive, paradoxically that may reduce his turnovers, since many of his TOs were charging calls called by referees who couldn't keep up with the action and assumed he was running out of control.)
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1695 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:05 am

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:He is certainly saying the right things, but I'm not all that confident he has bought in. I'll believe it when I see Wall making some backdoor cuts.

Up until now, Wall has been possibly the worst off-ball player in the league, with an embarrassing lack of movement and energy. I still can't get over that stat that Wall moved less than everyone in the league except 39-year-old Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know if a leopard can change his spots at age 30.


Then you're missing half the story.

Wall doesn't complain about it, but if you listen to guys like Kemba Walker people don't understand how much pain Wall was playing through with the bone spurs in his heels in particular. He was trying to be a hero to fight through it, as he did in any other injuries he had, but it absolutely limited his motion and energy. The Dirk stat was from just before he went on IR and needed surgery, it is not cumulative throughout his career. Ditto his defensive inactivity, that was a significant difference from earlier in his career, and we saw his defense show up in big games. On those nights he raised his game and dealt with the pain after.

Did John stand around ballwatching on offense before that? Yes he did (though he was generally a good offensive rebounder for a guard). Still his training was under Calipari's Dribble Drive Motion offense, which is predicated on drive and kick where players pretty much strafe in from the outside as ball handlers, and fill in the empty spots on the perimeter waiting the re-set pass to drive again. The offense basically tells you to float around on the perimeter and clear out of the way. The Big (one, single Big only) is posted away from the ball to leave room for dribble penetration.

Wall's handle and speed at that level worked well, and were the primary weapons that got him into the league, he didn't have to rely on his jumper or back cuts etc. In the NBA his coaches pretty much used him that way. Now he has had 2 years to read defenses and see the small ball revolution and GSW pace and space dominance. And James Harden doing what he does, despite limited quick twitch speed.

Now we have Wall returning without shards of glass in his heels. Having heard for 2 years how people doubt him. While he had surgery for a partially torn achilles, and an infection from the other operations where he heard doubts whether he would ever play again. Meanwhile he became a dad, and lost his mom. Flip Saunders called him the smartest basketball mind he ever coached (the quote was given AFTER Flip left the team). Other coaches have similar praise for his grasp of the game. You can doubt if he can change, but it seems to me that it happens all the time that a young player will mature. Especially after significant events. Birth of a child. Losing a loved one. Hell, partying less. OR nearly losing your ability to play the game you loved. These are the things that can change and mature you. Players do improve. Especially with health. With a defect removed.

I fully expect to see a high defense Wall, doing whatever he can to make his team better. He's always been a pass first point guard, being team first when he has the ball in his hands. I fully expect he sees how he can make his team better by cuts and screens and getting open for a jumper. If his jumper has improved. Before, his jumper was not a reliable enough weapon for that to be the best choice. Fortunately a jumper is one of the few things that can reliably improve over a players career. That, cutting down fouls, reducing TO's are the stats that do shift over time.

(And if John has lost a half step on his drive, paradoxically that may reduce his turnovers, since many of his TOs were charging calls called by referees who couldn't keep up with the action and assumed he was running out of control.)

I don't think Wall is lazy, or selfish, or stupid. I agree that he has probably learned a thing or two while watching from the sidelines. And I also agree that he'll be motivated to prove doubters wrong. I expect Wall to come back at 90% of his former self, and probably with an improved jumper. And I think he'll probably be a bit more consistent on defense, as long as he stays healthy.

I just don't think learning to play off ball will come so easily for a guy who has had the ball in his hands his entire life. He wasn't just bad at playing off-ball; he was horrible... absolutely terrible... worst-in-the-NBA kind of bad. I think ball-watching and standing still is too ingrained in him for it to change. I just don't think he'll know how to get himself open and find the angles, or at least it will be so non-instinctive that it won't help him much in an NBA game.

He might do some things better off ball. If nothing else, he'll be a more willing catch-and-shoot shooter, and probably more accurate as well. (I'm a little concerned about his slow release though. Every time I watch him shoot in practice, he still winds up very slowly.) And he'll probably relish attacking a close-out, which will seem so much easier than attacking an in-position defender off the dribble.
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Re: John Wall Appreciation Thread - Part III 

Post#1696 » by DCZards » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:33 am

nate33 wrote:He is certainly saying the right things, but I'm not all that confident he has bought in. I'll believe it when I see Wall making some backdoor cuts.

Up until now, Wall has been possibly the worst off-ball player in the league, with an embarrassing lack of movement and energy. I still can't get over that stat that Wall moved less than everyone in the league except 39-year-old Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know if a leopard can change his spots at age 30. I fear Brooks will have no choice to put the ball in Wall's hands whenever he is on the floor, which will limit the effectiveness of Beal. It'll be much like the problems Houston had trying to optimize the Westbrook/Harden combo.

I agree that we can't simply take Wall at his word. Seeing is believing. It was discouraging to learn that only Dirk moved less than John in that one season. (Although we don't know how much of a factor the bone spurs were.)

What does give me hope, however, is this particular comment from Wallstar:

Brad tells me all the time "You always gotta be ready, even when the ball is not in your hands, so dont put your hands on your knees. Always be shot ready... those are the types of things Im seeing throughout film when I'm watching over the lat year and a half....

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