Can we all stop with this nonsense now that Wall is better than Irving

hands11 · Post #2 » by **hands11** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 1:39 pm

Very different players and Kyrie is pretty much in an ideal situation for his talents. Lebron is pretty much playing PG and running the team. Kyrie is playing more SG/PG which is perfect for him right now.

Kyrie is very talented. I think the hate was in large part because people wanted Wall to be viewed well, we hate CLE, and because Kyrie was spoken about to highly while his team sucked while Wall was getting picked apart in the press.

Both are very talented players but very different players. I have mentioned that I felt Kyrie will explode into the next Curry type. Dude has sick handles, great shooter and great at finishing around the rim on drives.

Wall can continue to develop and be great as well. More a smarter floor general, end to end speed. Defense. Leader with the ball running a team. Stronger. And developing as a better shooter.

But yeah, Kyrie is good. Those swop Wall for Kyrie and a pick ideas don't seem to bad now. Keep in mind, Kyrie was drafted #1 while being mostly injured his draft year. There was high hopes for him. But there were questions. Yet he still went #1. But look at the top of the class. That wasn't a strong draft at the top. Actually it sucked. Just the way the ranking works some drafts. That was a good draft if you picked 10 or later. That's where the value was. Which is why I thought Kyrie and a later first was a reasonable trade idea.

CLE got Kyrie and Tristian. Two players that are still there. That was a good draft for them. It could have been even better if they had #1 in #10-15 instead of #1 and #4 but its working out for them since LeBron returned. Which is what's making the team good. If not, they would look like MIN. Better lucky then good is the story line for that team. That said, they made some great moves in season once LeBron returned. Adding Mozgov was a great move.

CntOutSmrtCrazy · Post #3 » by **CntOutSmrtCrazy** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:06 pm

Yes because a 57 point game means he's better, in that case Brandon Jennings is too. Irving is a better scorer than Wall, other than that he does nothing better than Wall. Let us no forget the Kyrie plays with Love and James, Wall has no one of that caliber at this point to draw attention like they do. Classic Wizard fan, self-loathing overreaction.

Higga · Post #4 » by **Higga** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:14 pm

Irving couldn't win jack until the best player in the world decided to return home.

Wall is still the better all around PG. Not really a fair comparison though since Irving is now Cleveland's 2nd best player while Wall is still heads and shoulders better than anyone else on our club.

Post #5 » by **Ruzious** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:28 pm

Lol - a thread like this could only start after Irving has a career day.

It's like comparing apples to oranges - depends on who's in the supporting cast. If Lebron's on the team, I prefer Irving. If Durant's on the team, I'd prefer Wall.

closg00 · Post #6 » by **closg00** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:29 pm

Whoa! He dropped 57, just saw that

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FAH1223 · Post #7 » by **FAH1223** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:31 pm

I think Kyrie has passed John

Kyrie has become a better defender his season than in the past.

He's a gifted scorer

Yes, Wall is better at running a team and the superior defender and athlete...

But we'll never see John do what Kyrie did last night or when Kyrie had 55 vs. Portland a few weeks back.

Kyrie is going to show out in the postseason while Wall shoots 35% from the field.

Post #8 » by **Ruzious** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:36 pm

Wall makes his teammates better. Irving's style of play - while effective and impressive in and of itself - has helped turn Love from a superstar into a role player.

closg00 · Post #9 » by **closg00** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:37 pm

Doesn't matter, Wall is our guy and the ownership better have a KD plan B when he re-signs with OKC. We need elite talent.

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FAH1223 · Post #10 » by **FAH1223** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:42 pm

Kyrie also rates higher in PPA than John.

Just looked at Kevin's blog

DCZards · Post #11 » by **DCZards** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:43 pm

Yeah, if scoring points and having maybe the best handle in the game is the only thing that matters in the NBA, then yes Irving is better than Wall. But if passing, defending, making teammates better and staying healthy also matter, then Wall is better than Irving.

Bottom line: Irving and Wall are two very good NBA players with two very different skillsets.

Kanyewest · Post #12 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:00 pm

Ruzious wrote:Wall makes his teammates better. Irving's style of play - while effective and impressive in and of itself - has helped turn Love from a superstar into a role player.

Yeah and LeBron only had 31 points. I think it has more to do with Love than LeBron or Irving at this point.

Kanyewest · Post #13 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:01 pm

DCZards wrote:Yeah, if scoring points and having maybe the best handle in the game is the only thing that matters in the NBA, then yes Irving is better than Wall. But if passing, defending, making teammates better and staying healthy also matter, then Wall is better than Irving.

Bottom line: Irving and Wall are two very good NBA players with two very different skillsets.

Defending is the big one. Parker was able to get his when Irving was guarding him. But that's why the Spurs had Shumpert to guard Parker. Probably a mistake by the Spurs not to play Ginobli instead of Green so that the Spurs wouldn't be able to hide Irving on defense.

FAH1223 · Post #14 » by **FAH1223** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:04 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yeah, if scoring points and having maybe the best handle in the game is the only thing that matters in the NBA, then yes Irving is better than Wall. But if passing, defending, making teammates better and staying healthy also matter, then Wall is better than Irving.

Bottom line: Irving and Wall are two very good NBA players with two very different skillsets.

Defending is the big one. Parker was able to get his when Irving was guarding him. But that's why the Spurs had Shumpert to guard Parker. Probably a mistake by the Spurs not to play Ginobli instead of Green so that the Spurs wouldn't be able to hide Irving on defense.

The Spurs should have had Green on Kyrie from the beginning of the game to not let him get in a rhythm.

From a fan point of view, it was great to see Parker cook Kyrie on one end with Kyrie coming right back on the other end.

The Kawhi vs. LeBron battle was fun to watch as well.

But Pop should have put his 2nd best defender on Kyrie from the start of the game.

Of course, Kawhi Leonard has to make his free throws and Kyrie doesn't get to 57.

Kanyewest · Post #15 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:11 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
DCZards wrote:Yeah, if scoring points and having maybe the best handle in the game is the only thing that matters in the NBA, then yes Irving is better than Wall. But if passing, defending, making teammates better and staying healthy also matter, then Wall is better than Irving.

Bottom line: Irving and Wall are two very good NBA players with two very different skillsets.

Defending is the big one. Parker was able to get his when Irving was guarding him. But that's why the Spurs had Shumpert to guard Parker. Probably a mistake by the Spurs not to play Ginobli instead of Green so that the Spurs wouldn't be able to hide Irving on defense.

The Spurs should have had Green on Kyrie from the beginning of the game to not let him get in a rhythm.

From a fan point of view, it was great to see Parker cook Kyrie on one end with Kyrie coming right back on the other end.

The Kawhi vs. LeBron battle was fun to watch as well.

But Pop should have put his 2nd best defender on Kyrie from the start of the game.

Of course, Kawhi Leonard has to make his free throws and Kyrie doesn't get to 57.

The weird thing is that Green somehow did a worse job on Irving but you are right it may have been because Irving had already found his rhythm. Hopefully, this loss motivates the Spurs and fuels them if they match up with Cleveland again.

Post #16 » by **nate33** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:17 pm

They're different players. I'm sure if Wall was on a team with Love, Lebron, Mosgov, Smith and Shumpert, he'd put putting up elite assist numbers while playing lock down D, and the team would be winning just as much.

My sense is that Kyrie would be better at single-handedly making a bad team decent because he can carry an offense by himself. But I think Wall would be better at making a good team elite.

Post #17 » by **Ruzious** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:18 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Wall makes his teammates better. Irving's style of play - while effective and impressive in and of itself - has helped turn Love from a superstar into a role player.

Yeah and LeBron only had 31 points. I think it has more to do with Love than LeBron or Irving at this point.

Love gets very few touches. Irving often uses up the bulk of the shot clock dribbling around and making 1 on 1 moves and not passing. He's arguably the best in the NBA at setting up his own shot, but that obviously forces Love into being nothing but a role player. At least Lebron will look for Love on occasion. Love has proven that he's a great offensive player. I'm not sure how that could be questioned. He's got to actually get the ball more than occasionally and not be used as just a stretch 4 to stay a great offensive player.

Kanyewest · Post #18 » by **Kanyewest** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:20 pm

Ruzious wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
Ruzious wrote:Wall makes his teammates better. Irving's style of play - while effective and impressive in and of itself - has helped turn Love from a superstar into a role player.

Yeah and LeBron only had 31 points. I think it has more to do with Love than LeBron or Irving at this point.

Love gets very few touches. Irving often uses up the bulk of the shot clock dribbling around and making 1 on 1 moves and not passing. He's arguably the best in the NBA at setting up his own shot, but that obviously forces Love into being nothing but a role player. At least Lebron will look for Love on occasion. Love has proven that he's a great offensive player. I'm not sure how that could be questioned. He's got to actually get the ball more than occasionally and not be used as just a stretch 4 to stay a great offensive player.

I think it has to do more with someone has to lose out on touches and it's going to be Love. Not everyone can have the ball. Love also struggled in the 2nd half with his looks as he was 0-5 from the field. Of course Love is going to see less looks in a game like this when Love is benched by his own coach which was a bit odd since they had either Shumpert and James Jones in instead of him but it did work out for Cleveland.

FAH1223 · Post #19 » by **FAH1223** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:30 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
Defending is the big one. Parker was able to get his when Irving was guarding him. But that's why the Spurs had Shumpert to guard Parker. Probably a mistake by the Spurs not to play Ginobli instead of Green so that the Spurs wouldn't be able to hide Irving on defense.

The Spurs should have had Green on Kyrie from the beginning of the game to not let him get in a rhythm.

From a fan point of view, it was great to see Parker cook Kyrie on one end with Kyrie coming right back on the other end.

The Kawhi vs. LeBron battle was fun to watch as well.

But Pop should have put his 2nd best defender on Kyrie from the start of the game.

Of course, Kawhi Leonard has to make his free throws and Kyrie doesn't get to 57.

The weird thing is that Green somehow did a worse job on Irving but you are right it may have been because Irving had already found his rhythm. Hopefully, this loss motivates the Spurs and fuels them if they match up with Cleveland again.

30 of Kyrie's 32 shots were contested... and he made 19 of them.

You can't do much when he gets going like that. I thought Green did a great job on him for the most part, he did over commit a few times but he made Kyrie work for his shots and he just made them.

The Cavs offense is a bit problematic because they run too much ISO for Irving and LeBron and they get stagnant while the Spurs were getting layup looks or open shots all night.

CntOutSmrtCrazy · Post #20 » by **CntOutSmrtCrazy** » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:31 pm

nate33 wrote:They're different players. I'm sure if Wall was on a team with Love, Lebron, Mosgov, Smith and Shumpert, he'd put putting up elite assist numbers while playing lock down D, and the team would be winning just as much.

My sense is that Kyrie would be better at single-handedly making a bad team decent because he can carry an offense by himself. But I think Wall would be better at making a good team elite.

Ahhh, every team Kyrie has been on has sucked before this season, so that's not a very plausible estimation.