Wizards re-sign Gooden

[DCZards]

What cha wanta bet he shoots over that this year ?

I would hope that Webster shoots better than 25% from 3 next season. But if that means he's shooting around 30% that's still not good enough from a player whose only real strength is his 3pt shooting.

How about if he shoot 33/34% min.

But you did make my original point. He isn't shoot 25% from 3. You know why ? Same reason is isn't going to be shooting 30% from 3

Well, not really making your original point because I'm not saying that Webster is going to shoot 30% plus. While I hope he gets back to the 34-35% range, Martell could continue to shoot 20-25%.

[TGW]

None of OUR SFs should play PF. Oubre/Porter are just to light in the britches to not get taken out to the woodshed. Dudley can't rebound to save his life and Webster - well Webster isn't going to play and he is closer to a SG than anything.

We need to hope that Humphries steps up with that 3 point shot and Gooden can last another season.

Yup, but unfortunately I expect that Duds will play a lot of PF for the Wiz - all in the name of the Wiz thinking they're following the GS model.

Is Ilyasova going to take Porter/Dudley to the woodshed? Is Jabari Parker? Is Ryan Anderson? Is Tobias Harris? Paul George? Marcus Morris? Patrick Patterson? Demarre Carroll? Josh McRoberts? Thad Young?

Yes, most of them will.

Parker, Anderson, Harris, Young, Love, Bosh, Atlanta's bigs are all going to destroy Porter/Dudley in the paint. Who are we kidding here.

[Ruzious]

You keep going to that same lame argument. Even if you make the giant leap that his defense at PF is fine, he can't rebound like a PF. If you're looking to reach for mediocrity, then you're fine. Beating better teams on a consistent basis takes more than that.

Nobody is saying that Porter/Dudley is the answer as a full-time, starting-caliber 35 mpg PF. I'm just saying both guys can handle spot minutes at the position for most nights. If they cover 10-15 minutes a night there, Humphries, Gooden (and maybe Nene) can handle the rest. It's not really any different that how things were last season and in the playoffs last year. I just don't get the doom and gloom.

Yes, PF is our weakest position. But people make it sound like we should just forfeit all of our games because we don't have the talent to match up. The fact is, there's a whole lot of crappy PF's in the league today. It's a position that's in flux right now. The game is passing by most of the old-school back-to-the-basket bruisers, and there hasn't been enough influx of talent to fill the void. Most teams are getting by with either glorified SF's like Tobias Harris, Jabari Parker and Thad Young, or they're playing one dimensional players like Anderson, Ilyasova and Frye who can shoot but lack the post skills to take advantage when guarded by smaller players.

It's the weakness at PF combined with having nothing behind Gortat. If anything happens to Gortat, we're in the lottery... in the East - not to mention the future outlook changing.

[nate33]

You keep going to that same lame argument. Even if you make the giant leap that his defense at PF is fine, he can't rebound like a PF. If you're looking to reach for mediocrity, then you're fine. Beating better teams on a consistent basis takes more than that.

Nobody is saying that Porter/Dudley is the answer as a full-time, starting-caliber 35 mpg PF. I'm just saying both guys can handle spot minutes at the position for most nights. If they cover 10-15 minutes a night there, Humphries, Gooden (and maybe Nene) can handle the rest. It's not really any different that how things were last season and in the playoffs last year. I just don't get the doom and gloom.

Yes, PF is our weakest position. But people make it sound like we should just forfeit all of our games because we don't have the talent to match up. The fact is, there's a whole lot of crappy PF's in the league today. It's a position that's in flux right now. The game is passing by most of the old-school back-to-the-basket bruisers, and there hasn't been enough influx of talent to fill the void. Most teams are getting by with either glorified SF's like Tobias Harris, Jabari Parker and Thad Young, or they're playing one dimensional players like Anderson, Ilyasova and Frye who can shoot but lack the post skills to take advantage when guarded by smaller players.

It's the weakness at PF combined with having nothing behind Gortat. If anything happens to Gortat, we're in the lottery... in the East - not to mention the future outlook changing.

Agreed. If Gortat goes down for an extended period of time, we're doomed. I think we could weather a 10-game stretch of him being out because Nene could probably step up and play starter's minutes for a little while. But if Gortat is out 25 games, we're in a world of hurt.

[queridiculo]

I suppose Nene at center is the plan b here, but given his fragile health combined with his poor attitude about playing the position he's best suited for at this stage of his career, losing Gortat would be a huge blow.

What scares me is that Gortat has played a ton of basketball the last few years. He takes incredible care of his body, but you have to wonder if at age 31 all those minutes aren't going to catch up at some point this season.

[hands11]

I would hope that Webster shoots better than 25% from 3 next season. But if that means he's shooting around 30% that's still not good enough from a player whose only real strength is his 3pt shooting.

How about if he shoot 33/34% min.

But you did make my original point. He isn't shoot 25% from 3. You know why ? Same reason is isn't going to be shooting 30% from 3

But the real point is he isn't going to play. He can't move - he can't play D and that will take him out of Wittman's lineup. That is why he will be at the very end of the bench. Horrible signing really.

Oh.. I thought the real point was ... he will be worth more in a trade once he 15 games tick off and he shows he can contribute to a team off the bench shooting closer to this career average. The 15 games will likely happen first so yes, its unlikely he plays to start the year. Then it going to come down to one of a few things...

Do they find him some minutes to audition him for a trade.
Do they just wait and see if anyone gets injured and then play him.
Do they let the clock tick out and have him focused on making a few team music videos and a locker room vet.

[hands11]

None of OUR SFs should play PF. Oubre/Porter are just to light in the britches to not get taken out to the woodshed. Dudley can't rebound to save his life and Webster - well Webster isn't going to play and he is closer to a SG than anything.

We need to hope that Humphries steps up with that 3 point shot and Gooden can last another season.

Yup, but unfortunately I expect that Duds will play a lot of PF for the Wiz - all in the name of the Wiz thinking they're following the GS model.

Is Ilyasova going to take Porter/Dudley to the woodshed? Is Jabari Parker? Is Ryan Anderson? Is Tobias Harris? Paul George? Marcus Morris? Patrick Patterson? Demarre Carroll? Josh McRoberts? Thad Young?

You must have missed the first step on Ilyasova. Dude is like mixing AI and The Mail Man all in one amazing S4 PF.

[hands11]

None of OUR SFs should play PF. Oubre/Porter are just to light in the britches to not get taken out to the woodshed. Dudley can't rebound to save his life and Webster - well Webster isn't going to play and he is closer to a SG than anything.

We need to hope that Humphries steps up with that 3 point shot and Gooden can last another season.

You do realize Otto played about half his playoff minutes at PF.

This is really a total non issue with all the options they have. And they don't have to play S4 100% of the time anyway.

Yep, guess I missed the 50% of the time that Porter plays PF

Code: Select all

Pos    Min   Net    Off      Def    Net48      W    L   Win%
PG      0%    -9    44.1    132.4   -88.3      0    2   0%
SG     18%   -51    95.8     99.1    -3.3     29   32   47%
SF     17%    24    97.5     95.7     1.7     26   23   53%
PF      0%     0   134.0    134.0     0.0      2    2   50%
C       0%     0     0.0      0.0     0.0      0    0    0%


And 480 minutes played at PF during the playoffs.

Gooden ~180
Nene ~150
Pierce ~ 120

Leaving 30 minutes of Porters 330. Doing the math 30/330 = 50%, I stand corrected

or you could have just asked where I got that and I would have posted this..


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteot01.html

Click and scroll down.. Its actually 45% by this chart.. which is why I said... about half over 10 games 331 total minutes.

[hands11]

Gooden posted a TS of 47% last season... I don't think think he is going to improve much off that. He ain't some young guy adapting to league. We also were a net negative with him on the floor. Patrick Patterson made him his bitch defensively. I don't think Gooden will be any better defensively this season. Maybe an off chance he shoots better.

Either way, you know what you get with Gooden, which is not a good player. I'd say he is below average as well. I would have looked to any other S4 available outside of him. The FO falls in love with their own flawed mediocre players too much.

I think you're better off gambling on fringe players like Cory Jefferson actually "getting it" (yes I know his TS was only 48% as well but at least it is reasonable to assume he can actually improve) then relying on Gooden for any sort of modicum of advancement as a team.

But hey he is a cute story people seem to embrace cause of the Bethesda crap so lets just run with it..

Yup. Just always wanting mediocre, there's nothing beyond that

Cory Jefferson was a player I promoted to the board when I went scouting Pierre Jackson, who I also posted a lot in his draft class. These were late 2nd long shots to fill out the bench and add some younger legs.

I am familiar with Cory. But I would not take him for the Wizards this year over Gooden. Nor would I take M Morris this year either though I think he is a talent. Not with KD coming and not with what I think they need right now. Just not enough roster spots to do everything all at once. And no need to force it. Three core young players is enough for right now. Specially if all 3 are starting.

Cory is a project. I think he struggles with assertiveness and confidence.

I hope he develops, but not sure Cory has the motor to make it as a NBA professional. And he is already 24 and will be 25 in Dec. Sadly, things working out for Cory is a long shot at this point.

I would much rather have KLife then Cory.

[hands11]

You keep going to that same lame argument. Even if you make the giant leap that his defense at PF is fine, he can't rebound like a PF. If you're looking to reach for mediocrity, then you're fine. Beating better teams on a consistent basis takes more than that.

Nobody is saying that Porter/Dudley is the answer as a full-time, starting-caliber 35 mpg PF. I'm just saying both guys can handle spot minutes at the position for most nights. If they cover 10-15 minutes a night there, Humphries, Gooden (and maybe Nene) can handle the rest. It's not really any different that how things were last season and in the playoffs last year. I just don't get the doom and gloom.

Yes, PF is our weakest position. But people make it sound like we should just forfeit all of our games because we don't have the talent to match up. The fact is, there's a whole lot of crappy PF's in the league today. It's a position that's in flux right now. The game is passing by most of the old-school back-to-the-basket bruisers, and there hasn't been enough influx of talent to fill the void. Most teams are getting by with either glorified SF's like Tobias Harris, Jabari Parker and Thad Young, or they're playing one dimensional players like Anderson, Ilyasova and Frye who can shoot but lack the post skills to take advantage when guarded by smaller players.

It's the weakness at PF combined with having nothing behind Gortat. If anything happens to Gortat, we're in the lottery... in the East - not to mention the future outlook changing.

What ? If they lose Gortat they are lottery ? I don't think so. First off, you talking about losing him for the year ? That isn't likely to happen.

Sure..Anything can happen. But... He missed 1 game the last two years. Dude is in great shape. He is the Polish Machine.
Secondly.. as for right now, they still have Nene, Hump, Gooden and Blair to back up center and big PF. And they will still have Wall, Beal, Otto, Alan Anderson and Dudley.

Gortat is going to be mega motivated this year with a more open floor. He wouldn't miss that for anything. This is what he has been waiting for his entire career.

[nuposse04]

Gooden posted a TS of 47% last season... I don't think think he is going to improve much off that. He ain't some young guy adapting to league. We also were a net negative with him on the floor. Patrick Patterson made him his bitch defensively. I don't think Gooden will be any better defensively this season. Maybe an off chance he shoots better.

Either way, you know what you get with Gooden, which is not a good player. I'd say he is below average as well. I would have looked to any other S4 available outside of him. The FO falls in love with their own flawed mediocre players too much.

I think you're better off gambling on fringe players like Cory Jefferson actually "getting it" (yes I know his TS was only 48% as well but at least it is reasonable to assume he can actually improve) then relying on Gooden for any sort of modicum of advancement as a team.

But hey he is a cute story people seem to embrace cause of the Bethesda crap so lets just run with it..

Yup. Just always wanting mediocre, there's nothing beyond that

Cory Jefferson was a player I promoted to the board when I went scouting Pierre Jackson, who I also posted a lot in his draft class. These were late 2nd long shots to fill out the bench and add some younger legs.

I am familiar with Cory. But I would not take him for the Wizards this year over Gooden. Nor would I take M Morris this year either though I think he is a talent. Not with KD coming and not with what I think they need right now. Just not enough roster spots to do everything all at once. And no need to force it. Three core young players is enough for right now. Specially if all 3 are starting.

Cory is a project. I think he struggles with assertiveness and confidence.

I hope he develops, but not sure Cory has the motor to make it as a NBA professional. And he is already 24 and will be 25 in Dec. Sadly, things working out for Cory is a long shot at this point.

I would much rather have KLife then Cory.

I don't see any reason to actually WANT to keep Gooden. My point isn't so much about Cory being a great prospect...my point is that Gooden is a known commodity, and a bad one at that. So why keep him? Cory by most metrics I have seen is about as inefficient but much more positively impactful by his +/- per 100 then Gooden. Even if it isn't Cory, I'd much rather gamble on random player X, who is not +25 (or +30 for this matter) and has some statistical evidence detailing he is at least as bad as Gooden. Just for the sole reason they may have some upside to help us more when it matters most in the playoffs unlike Gooden. Who was an absolute travesty in the 2nd half of the ATL series even though he STILL got more open looks in the last 3 games.

Seraphin isn't even in this discussion since he isn't a 4. If it is a center...I want Sims, Birch or Withey. Seraphin is garbage, so I wouldn't be surprised to see us retain him should we move blair.

[dckingsfan]

How about if he shoot 33/34% min.

But you did make my original point. He isn't shoot 25% from 3. You know why ? Same reason is isn't going to be shooting 30% from 3

But the real point is he isn't going to play. He can't move - he can't play D and that will take him out of Wittman's lineup. That is why he will be at the very end of the bench. Horrible signing really.

Oh.. I thought the real point was ... he will be worth more in a trade once he 15 games tick off and he shows he can contribute to a team off the bench shorting closer to this career average. The 15 games will likely happen first so yes, its unlikely he plays to start the year. Then it going to come down to one of a few things...

Do they find him some minutes to audition him for a trade.
Do they just wait and see if anyone gets injured and then play him.
Do they let the clock tick out and have him focused on making a few team music videos and a locker room vet.

They are one in the same - he isn't going to play, he isn't going to be worth more. Wittman will be focused on winning and he they will be content to waive him next year. Pathetic signing...

[dckingsfan]

You do realize Otto played about half his playoff minutes at PF.

This is really a total non issue with all the options they have. And they don't have to play S4 100% of the time anyway.

Yep, guess I missed the 50% of the time that Porter plays PF

Code: Select all

Pos    Min   Net    Off      Def    Net48      W    L   Win%
PG      0%    -9    44.1    132.4   -88.3      0    2   0%
SG     18%   -51    95.8     99.1    -3.3     29   32   47%
SF     17%    24    97.5     95.7     1.7     26   23   53%
PF      0%     0   134.0    134.0     0.0      2    2   50%
C       0%     0     0.0      0.0     0.0      0    0    0%


And 480 minutes played at PF during the playoffs.

Gooden ~180
Nene ~150
Pierce ~ 120

Leaving 30 minutes of Porters 330. Doing the math 30/330 = 50%, I stand corrected

or you could have just asked where I got that and I would have posted this..


http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/porteot01.html

Click and scroll down.. Its actually 45% by this chart.. which is why I said... about half over 10 games 331 total minutes.

hehehe, and they had Pierce at 99% SF - always good to apply the laugh test

[dobrojim]

the more I think about it, the more I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

[nate33]

the more I think about it, the I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

That may be how it goes down, but that doesn't mean it'll look the same as last season. Last season, Nene played PF almost exclusively. Seraphin backed up Gortat at center. That meant we had a half-decent 3-point shooter at the PF position for just a few minutes a game when Gooden got minutes.

This year, it should look a lot more like the playoffs of last year. Nene may start at PF in the 1st and 3rd quarters, but he'll be the first guy to the bench and will be replaced by either Dudley or Gooden (or a more 3-point proficient Humphries). When Nene comes back in at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, it'll be to give Gortat at rest at center.

So basically, we will have a 3-point shooter at the PF spot for the last 18 minutes of each half.

[dckingsfan]

the more I think about it, the I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

That may be how it goes down, but that doesn't mean it'll look the same as last season. Last season, Nene played PF almost exclusively. Seraphin backed up Gortat at center. That meant we had a half-decent 3-point shooter at the PF position for just a few minutes a game when Gooden got minutes.

This year, it should look a lot more like the playoffs of last year. Nene may start at PF in the 1st and 3rd quarters, but he'll be the first guy to the bench and will be replaced by either Dudley or Gooden (or a more 3-point proficient Humphries). When Nene comes back in at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, it'll be to give Gortat at rest at center.

So basically, we will have a 3-point shooter at the PF spot for the last 18 minutes of each half.

Just want to add to this that I am also hopeful that Humphries adds a 3 ball. That might be a stretch - but... it would be most helpful

[payitforward]

...Gortat is going to be mega motivated this year with a more open floor. He wouldn't miss that for anything. This is what he has been waiting for his entire career.

Great thought. It'll be fun to watch him & see how it works out.

[hands11]

the more I think about it, the more I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

this will be more true then not.. except for what you said about Nene. That's the big question and we just have to wait for more data before we know for sure.

That and how many 3s they will shoot. I think they averaged about 16 in the reg season last year. I suspect they are at least in the 23-25 per game range this year min. Losing TA and Webster last season was a big adjustment for them. But now they have Anderson, Neal and Otto has come on line, and Dudley replaced Paul except I suspect off the bench, and they will play more stretch line ups ( big ones/small ones), so I expect more 3s.

Everything is pretty set, except how they rotate the PF position. But we will know more about how they will handle that before the season starts. Time will reveal more clarity on that front. Just have to wait for some more intel. They have options.

The big remaining question we need news on is.. what is the plan for Nene.

[hands11]

the more I think about it, the I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

That may be how it goes down, but that doesn't mean it'll look the same as last season. Last season, Nene played PF almost exclusively. Seraphin backed up Gortat at center. That meant we had a half-decent 3-point shooter at the PF position for just a few minutes a game when Gooden got minutes.

This year, it should look a lot more like the playoffs of last year. Nene may start at PF in the 1st and 3rd quarters, but he'll be the first guy to the bench and will be replaced by either Dudley or Gooden (or a more 3-point proficient Humphries). When Nene comes back in at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, it'll be to give Gortat at rest at center.

So basically, we will have a 3-point shooter at the PF spot for the last 18 minutes of each half.

Agreed.

Very similar to the playoffs. End of 2nd and end of game.

Only really questions is... will that be a small S4 like Paul with more of the regular mins going to a big S4 where Nene plays less PF or do they still play Nene there and just pull him early.

But you are getting at least the end of the 2nd and 4th with a S4 of some kind.

Its not clear what that transition/process will look like yet. They could make the change and just start Gooden/Hump or they could slowly transition to that.

Just have to wait to hear more news about what they are thinking. What I hope we hear is, they are done baby sitting the Nene situation and just go what is best for the team regardless of salaries. If teams are playing more S4 perimeter players, Nene can't extend to cover them and unless Nene added a 3 ball, he can't stretch the floor. Starting him then just doesn't compute given the other options.

[dobrojim]

the more I think about it, the I tend to believe that come the beginning of real games in late
Oct, Nene is going to be our starting PF. Gooden will play to the extent he hits his 3s.
Porter or Dudley will replace Truth. The rest of the team goes on as before. Maybe rotations
will change during games with us seeing more S4 lineups, but considering how seldom we did
that in the past, and the paucity of clear effective choices to play that way, we will probably
continue to be a team that tends to shoot fewer 3s than most. Maybe Dudley changes that if
he comes in and sustains a good 3 pt %age.

That may be how it goes down, but that doesn't mean it'll look the same as last season. Last season, Nene played PF almost exclusively. Seraphin backed up Gortat at center. That meant we had a half-decent 3-point shooter at the PF position for just a few minutes a game when Gooden got minutes.

This year, it should look a lot more like the playoffs of last year. Nene may start at PF in the 1st and 3rd quarters, but he'll be the first guy to the bench and will be replaced by either Dudley or Gooden (or a more 3-point proficient Humphries). When Nene comes back in at the start of the 2nd and 4th quarters, it'll be to give Gortat at rest at center.

So basically, we will have a 3-point shooter at the PF spot for the last 18 minutes of each half.

I hope you're right and you may well turn out to be right.