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Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:34 pm
by payitforward
Jamaaliver wrote:NOTE: Regarding the criticisms of tone and arrogance...I will absolutely take these into consideration.

It was my pleasure to deliver them! Especially as, hanging around here, you probably notice that I get the same treatment! And no doubt deserve it. :)

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:35 pm
by gtn130
Atlanta is the 35 win version of Golden State, so it will be tough to find a package that makes sense for Beal.

I would do Beal for Trae Young, Huerter, Hunter and ten first round picks

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:02 pm
by CP War Hawks
Rafael122 wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:
I actually think of ATL as a sleeper team to make a move in the next 15 months.
If you want Beal I assume Young and Collins are off the table as you want to compete.
So Huerter and Hunter are the first obvious assets (No interest in Reddish).
Then comes the picks. 2020 & 2022 draft picks seem reasonable.



I was definitely of the belief that Hawks were interested in Beal and am still onboard with acquiring him.

But this past draft was the time for us to strike. We had 6 draft selections (3 in the top 20 -- two in the top 10) that could have served as currency to acquire Beal with two full years under contract. Instead, we sold most of our second rounders and traded away #8 and #17 for...De'Andre Hunter.

That's five picks right there. At this point, our GM seems locked into building around the core group of players he's acquired. For better or worse.



And for the record: I suggested last Fall a trade for Beal built around J Collins (and that Mavs pick). Your mod referred to it as a poo poo platter. It seems unlikely we'd move the kid now that his stock has skyrocketed.


I'm a big fan of Collins, I just don't know if he would be made available. Imagine if ATL had just picked Luka...he and Beal would be lethal.


Okay so if you're dealing with Atl, the raw picks don't hold the value. Collins and Huerter are a strong package for Beal. Before then, they were picks 19 which has no value to anyone.

'Young developed assets' are what teams are coveting more in trades which is the Hawks model right now. Nets and OKC picks hold little to no value, but the Hawks are dedicated into player development which will land them a star trade or even fa eventually.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:11 pm
by gtn130
CP War Hawks wrote:Collins and Huerter are a strong package for Beal.


Terrible package for Beal. Two guys who can't defend and have limited upside for the ~15th best player in the league.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:33 pm
by Ruzious
gtn130 wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:Collins and Huerter are a strong package for Beal.


Terrible package for Beal. Two guys who can't defend and have limited upside for the ~15th best player in the league.

I can't see them trading Collins. He's an offensive phenom even if his defense is offensive.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:40 pm
by Jamaaliver
Ruzious wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:Collins and Huerter are a strong package for Beal.


Terrible package for Beal. Two guys who can't defend and have limited upside for the ~15th best player in the league.

I can't see them trading Collins. He's an offensive phenom even if his defense is offensive.



And a perfect recipient for all those Young Trae lob passes.

Image



I can't say it'll never happen. But our owner has spoken so highly of Collins, it'd be really difficult to move him in trade.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:51 pm
by TGW
pcbothwel wrote:
TGW wrote:
payitforward wrote:What's the absolute maximum you would give for Bradley Beal?

:lol:

Atlanta had their chance with those picks. Now, I wouldn't accept less than Collins.


Disagree... I would open to a trade with them. But I definitely want a pick in the out years.

Huerter, Hunter, 2020, 2022 & 2023 pick swap (Becoming 2024 pick if declined) Is a very interesting package.


Nah. Not enough. You can't trade Beal for those middling players and picks. You always have to factor the improvement of the team you're trading Beal to. Those picks aren't going to be any good.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:55 pm
by CP War Hawks
Irl, they probably value Collins and Huerter above a Beal. They already have a budding Huerter at 2 and massive cap space so it's no urgency unless Beal has a 'George sitdown with ownership' to get things moving along.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:39 pm
by Ruzious
Jamaaliver wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
gtn130 wrote:
Terrible package for Beal. Two guys who can't defend and have limited upside for the ~15th best player in the league.

I can't see them trading Collins. He's an offensive phenom even if his defense is offensive.



And a perfect recipient for all those Young Trae lob passes.

Image



I can't say it'll never happen. But our owner has spoken so highly of Collins, it'd be really difficult to move him in trade.

And his 3 point shot was really developing last season - he probably never shot outside of 15 feet in college. At some point, he's going to be unguardable and averaging 25 and 10 a game - probably this season.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:19 pm
by gtn130
John Collins will be unguardable? What on earth

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:46 pm
by Ruzious
gtn130 wrote:John Collins will be unguardable? What on earth

Yeah, and not just when Bobby Portis or Jabari Parker cover him. You've been here for a decade, so you know you're making me say this... Have you ever watched him play and looked at his stats? If you have, God love ya.

I don't know if he'll ever get it on defense, but we were just talking about his ability to score - which is already at an elite level.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:32 pm
by CP War Hawks
Ruzious wrote:
gtn130 wrote:John Collins will be unguardable? What on earth

Yeah, and not just when Bobby Portis or Jabari Parker cover him. You've been here for a decade, so you know you're making me say this... Have you ever watched him play and looked at his stats? If you have, God love ya.

I don't know if he'll ever get it on defense, but we were just talking about his ability to score - which is already at an elite level.


:lol: Yeah man, we have those on our boards along with every board we individually like to frequent.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:29 am
by gtn130
Ruzious wrote:
gtn130 wrote:John Collins will be unguardable? What on earth

Yeah, and not just when Bobby Portis or Jabari Parker cover him. You've been here for a decade, so you know you're making me say this... Have you ever watched him play and looked at his stats? If you have, God love ya.

I don't know if he'll ever get it on defense, but we were just talking about his ability to score - which is already at an elite level.


Obviously he’s a good offensive player. Maybe this is semantics but “unguardable” seems pretty strong and reserved for like Kevin Durant.

The Atlanta young core is wildly overrated by their fans. There are many teams with better groups of young talent

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:43 am
by payitforward
gtn130 wrote:Atlanta is the 35 win version of Golden State, so it will be tough to find a package that makes sense for Beal.

I would do Beal for Trae Young, Huerter, Hunter and ten first round picks

LOL! Finally, we agree on something! :)

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:58 am
by payitforward
CP War Hawks wrote:Irl, they probably value Collins and Huerter above a Beal. They already have a budding Huerter at 2 and massive cap space so it's no urgency unless Beal has a 'George sitdown with ownership' to get things moving along.

Somebody please explain to me what makes Kevin Huerter particularly valuable. Is it his 14 points per 40 minutes? Or is it the below average TS% at which he scores that below average number of points?

I don't mean to denigrate the kid. He had a reasonably ok rookie season, & I'm glad for him. He has a chance to be an NBA player.

I'm sure Hawks loyalists will counter with how great he is, because, unsurprisingly, he glows in their eyes. For that matter, our own loyalists are not dissimilar -- no, Brad Beal is not among the top 15 players in the league.

Truth is, this is kind of a useless exchange. We're not planning to trade Beal, & Atlanta probably doesn't have a package that would interest us all that much anyway. That's just not where the team is.

Nor does it help to issue dire warnings: oooh, it's now or never; now is good, later is bad, etc. Come on. Talk about things that might actually happen.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:24 am
by Jamaaliver
gtn130 wrote:The Atlanta young core is wildly overrated by their fans. There are many teams with better groups of young talent



It's a perfect example of "The Whole being Greater than the Sum of its Parts".

Huerter pairs perfectly with Trae Young in the backcourt.
John Collins' offensive production is inflated from playing with Trae on a team with incredibly high pace.
Young will benefit from playing with a polished 3 & D wing like De'Andre Hunter.
Hunter will benefit from playing alongside a top offensive creator on a team that plays much faster than Virginia.


Individually, yes, each of those players has glaring flaws. But our gM believes that collectively, they can replicate the offensive system that GS eventually used to get to contention.

The skepticism is understandable.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 am
by Jamaaliver
Back on topic, I've been an avid NBA watcher since around '96. We've seen similar scenarios to Beal's play out multiple ways over the last couple of decades.

Even the most loyal player gets tempted to head elsewhere in their prime so they can contend. Or worse, they stay so long that their contract explodes, limiting the ceiling for the team -- and a new GM eventually sends them away unceremoniously.

From Dominique Wilkins in Atlanta, to KG in Minnesota, to Mitch Richmond in Sacramento, to Joe Johnson in Atlanta.


We've all seen this movie play out in a couple of different ways. It's natural that Wiz fans want to keep their young star. It's admirable that he wants to stay here as well.

But if Beal can't consistently carry this team deep into the playoffs in his prime, how is paying him massively more money going to change that?

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:30 pm
by nate33
Jamaaliver wrote:
gtn130 wrote:The Atlanta young core is wildly overrated by their fans. There are many teams with better groups of young talent



It's a perfect example of "The Whole being Greater than the Sum of its Parts".

Huerter pairs perfectly with Trae Young in the backcourt.
John Collins' offensive production is inflated from playing with Trae on a team with incredibly high pace.
Young will benefit from playing with a polished 3 & D wing like De'Andre Hunter.
Hunter will benefit from playing alongside a top offensive creator on a team that plays much faster than Virginia.


Individually, yes, each of those players has glaring flaws. But our gM believes that collectively, they can replicate the offensive system that GS eventually used to get to contention.

The skepticism is understandable.

It would also be understandable if he Wizards didn't highly value any individual Hawks players in a trade since, by your own admission, they're not as good individually as the collective success would suggest.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:34 pm
by Jamaaliver
nate33 wrote:It would also be understandable if he Wizards didn't highly value any individual Hawks players in a trade since, by your own admission, they're not as good individually as the collective success would suggest.



Right. And again, Atlanta seems unlikely to jump into the trade market for Beal at this point.

We just sold two draft picks away and traded 5 draft picks for De'Andre Hunter. Hawks clearly had the ammunition to get deep into trade talks for Beal and didn't.

It isn't happening.

We are on pace to have something like $70 million in cap space next summer. I suspect we'll be more active in FA and trade talks in 2020. But even then, likely not for Brad Beal.

Re: Bradley Beal - Part III

Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:50 pm
by closg00