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nate33 wrote:

pancakes3 wrote:saw a trade proposal floating around: Wiggins + Warriors #2 overall in this draft + Warriors' 2021 first round pick from Minny + Warrior's 2021 second round pick from Minny.

The 2021 pick is top 3 protected, and unprotected in 2022. It's a gamble to see if we can get an unprotected first rounder in 2022 - the double-draft year but damn, makes you think.

That proposal has been floated a hundred times. It's horrible. Absolutely terrible.

I don't think you are factoring what a negative value Wiggins is. The guy is a net negative player who doesn't like basketball, and is paid $32M a year for the next 3 years. You would have to give me that Minny pick, and then some, just to absorb Wiggins' contract, which basically means you are trading Bradley Beal for the #2 pick in this horrible draft.

Nate... Im not saying I would outright take the deal as I would also want a future 1st from GSW (2022?) and their #48, and I dont see any deal happening before the deadline anyway.... buuuuut:

1) Wiggins Skill: I have said for YEARS how overrated Wiggins is, but it appears the consensus has started to swing the other way. Wiggins is only 24, and suffered from playing in a terrible organization with ridiculous expectations. His expectations and usage were that of a superstar, and he simply doesnt have the BBIQ or killer instinct for that as you mentioned.
I agree he doesnt love the game the way the elite players have to in this league, but I do think he is beginning to settle in as a 3rd/4th piece. In a way, he very much reminds of Demar Derozan.
Poor Defender, poor rebounder... but, he can score in a number of ways on moderate efficiency while showing a very underrated passing game. Dont kill the messenger, but go look at guys like Harrison Barnes and Derozan at 22-24 compared to Wiggins. His Shooting of 65-67% at the basket and 33-35% from 3 while drawing fouls will be enough from him to live in the 55-56% TS range, especially as his usage drops from the upper 25-27% range down to 20%.

2) Wiggins Contract: Agreed... Awful, but what are the opportunity cost? Thats what every team needs to ask in the NBA due to the CBA framework. If we are trading Beal then we are not competing and will not draw FA's for the next 2-3 years anyway.
Wiggins contract really only kills you if you are at the tax or needing cap space to sign a Star... neither of which are happening in this scenario

3) Picks: And now, the real value. I'm LOVING the 2021 draft right now, and unless Minny pulls of a steal of a trade for their pick, I think they falter and we get a pick in the 5-9 range next year easy. Also, our own pick would be in the same range without Beal.

For this years pick, I would NOT want number 2... So I would look to have a 3rd team lined up to trade down from 2 while getting another future pick. I.E. 2 to ATL for 6 & 2021 1st (Protected top 8-10, then top 3 in 2022).

Draft Okongwu at 6, Vassell/Haliburton at 9, Flynn/Pritchard @ 37, and Hinton @ 48.

Wall / Flynn (#37)
Brown / Haliburton (#9)
Wiggins / Hinton (#48)
Rui / Bonga
Bryant / Okongwu (#6)

Deep Bench: Mathews, Schofield, Knight (UDFA)
Future Assets: 2 2021 1st (Wiz/Minny), 2 2021 2nds (Wiz/Minny), 3 2022 1st (Wiz/ATL/GSW)

Thats a hell of haul that clearly has volume of picks, but most importantly... 6 Lotto picks in the next 3 years.

It wouldn't surprise me if Wiggins ends up being an all-star caliber player. He came into the NBA at 19 very immature and stayed that way for a several seasons, but last season he took a big step up, and he can easily take another step up just by improving his 3 point shooting consistency - he's got a nice looking shot. He's also a talented defender and seemed to put his mind into it more.

pcbothwel wrote:

nate33 wrote:

pancakes3 wrote:saw a trade proposal floating around: Wiggins + Warriors #2 overall in this draft + Warriors' 2021 first round pick from Minny + Warrior's 2021 second round pick from Minny.

The 2021 pick is top 3 protected, and unprotected in 2022. It's a gamble to see if we can get an unprotected first rounder in 2022 - the double-draft year but damn, makes you think.

That proposal has been floated a hundred times. It's horrible. Absolutely terrible.

I don't think you are factoring what a negative value Wiggins is. The guy is a net negative player who doesn't like basketball, and is paid $32M a year for the next 3 years. You would have to give me that Minny pick, and then some, just to absorb Wiggins' contract, which basically means you are trading Bradley Beal for the #2 pick in this horrible draft.

Nate... Im not saying I would outright take the deal as I would also want a future 1st from GSW (2022?) and their #48, and I dont see any deal happening before the deadline anyway.... buuuuut:

1) Wiggins Skill: I have said for YEARS how overrated Wiggins is, but it appears the consensus has started to swing the other way. Wiggins is only 24, and suffered from playing in a terrible organization with ridiculous expectations. His expectations and usage were that of a superstar, and he simply doesnt have the BBIQ or killer instinct for that as you mentioned.
I agree he doesnt love the game the way the elite players have to in this league, but I do think he is beginning to settle in as a 3rd/4th piece. In a way, he very much reminds of Demar Derozan.
Poor Defender, poor rebounder... but, he can score in a number of ways on moderate efficiency while showing a very underrated passing game. Dont kill the messenger, but go look at guys like Harrison Barnes and Derozan at 22-24 compared to Wiggins. His Shooting of 65-67% at the basket and 33-35% from 3 while drawing fouls will be enough from him to live in the 55-56% TS range, especially as his usage drops from the upper 25-27% range down to 20%.

2) Wiggins Contract: Agreed... Awful, but what are the opportunity cost? Thats what every team needs to ask in the NBA due to the CBA framework. If we are trading Beal then we are not competing and will not draw FA's for the next 2-3 years anyway.
Wiggins contract really only kills you if you are at the tax or needing cap space to sign a Star... neither of which are happening in this scenario

3) Picks: And now, the real value. I'm LOVING the 2021 draft right now, and unless Minny pulls of a steal of a trade for their pick, I think they falter and we get a pick in the 5-9 range next year easy. Also, our own pick would be in the same range without Beal.

For this years pick, I would NOT want number 2... So I would look to have a 3rd team lined up to trade down from 2 while getting another future pick. I.E. 2 to ATL for 6 & 2021 1st (Protected top 8-10, then top 3 in 2022).

Draft Okongwu at 6, Vassell/Haliburton at 9, Flynn/Pritchard @ 37, and Hinton @ 48.

Wall / Flynn (#37)
Brown / Haliburton (#9)
Wiggins / Hinton (#48)
Rui / Bonga
Bryant / Okongwu (#6)

Deep Bench: Mathews, Schofield, Knight (UDFA)
Future Assets: 2 2021 1st (Wiz/Minny), 2 2021 2nds (Wiz/Minny), 3 2022 1st (Wiz/ATL/GSW)

Thats a hell of haul that clearly has volume of picks, but most importantly... 6 Lotto picks in the next 3 years.

This is breaking up a dollar for a bunch of change. Having a higher pick in a bottom heavy draft doesn't excite me and its there is no draft haul big enough to swap Wiggins for Beal - unless there's a Zion-like prospect on the other end.

Dat2U wrote:

pcbothwel wrote:

nate33 wrote:That proposal has been floated a hundred times. It's horrible. Absolutely terrible.

I don't think you are factoring what a negative value Wiggins is. The guy is a net negative player who doesn't like basketball, and is paid $32M a year for the next 3 years. You would have to give me that Minny pick, and then some, just to absorb Wiggins' contract, which basically means you are trading Bradley Beal for the #2 pick in this horrible draft.

Nate... Im not saying I would outright take the deal as I would also want a future 1st from GSW (2022?) and their #48, and I dont see any deal happening before the deadline anyway.... buuuuut:

1) Wiggins Skill: I have said for YEARS how overrated Wiggins is, but it appears the consensus has started to swing the other way. Wiggins is only 24, and suffered from playing in a terrible organization with ridiculous expectations. His expectations and usage were that of a superstar, and he simply doesnt have the BBIQ or killer instinct for that as you mentioned.
I agree he doesnt love the game the way the elite players have to in this league, but I do think he is beginning to settle in as a 3rd/4th piece. In a way, he very much reminds of Demar Derozan.
Poor Defender, poor rebounder... but, he can score in a number of ways on moderate efficiency while showing a very underrated passing game. Dont kill the messenger, but go look at guys like Harrison Barnes and Derozan at 22-24 compared to Wiggins. His Shooting of 65-67% at the basket and 33-35% from 3 while drawing fouls will be enough from him to live in the 55-56% TS range, especially as his usage drops from the upper 25-27% range down to 20%.

2) Wiggins Contract: Agreed... Awful, but what are the opportunity cost? Thats what every team needs to ask in the NBA due to the CBA framework. If we are trading Beal then we are not competing and will not draw FA's for the next 2-3 years anyway.
Wiggins contract really only kills you if you are at the tax or needing cap space to sign a Star... neither of which are happening in this scenario

3) Picks: And now, the real value. I'm LOVING the 2021 draft right now, and unless Minny pulls of a steal of a trade for their pick, I think they falter and we get a pick in the 5-9 range next year easy. Also, our own pick would be in the same range without Beal.

For this years pick, I would NOT want number 2... So I would look to have a 3rd team lined up to trade down from 2 while getting another future pick. I.E. 2 to ATL for 6 & 2021 1st (Protected top 8-10, then top 3 in 2022).

Draft Okongwu at 6, Vassell/Haliburton at 9, Flynn/Pritchard @ 37, and Hinton @ 48.

Wall / Flynn (#37)
Brown / Haliburton (#9)
Wiggins / Hinton (#48)
Rui / Bonga
Bryant / Okongwu (#6)

Deep Bench: Mathews, Schofield, Knight (UDFA)
Future Assets: 2 2021 1st (Wiz/Minny), 2 2021 2nds (Wiz/Minny), 3 2022 1st (Wiz/ATL/GSW)

Thats a hell of haul that clearly has volume of picks, but most importantly... 6 Lotto picks in the next 3 years.

This is breaking up a dollar for a bunch of change. Having a higher pick in a bottom heavy draft doesn't excite me and its there is no draft haul big enough to swap Wiggins for Beal - unless there's a Zion-like prospect on the other end.

I agree, don't want any part of wiggins here for three years. Tough to stomach, such a slim guy with poor hip bend, horrible defender. Volume low percentage shooter.

LOL. Dat... A Zion level prospect comes along once every 5 years. The Wiggins for Love trade ONLY happened because of the crazy Lebron situation.
The number 2 pick, Another top 8 pick, and another 1st for a player that is not a Super Star is a Great Haul.

Now, I would not take it right now due to timing, but I suspect the package we end up getting for Beal will not be better if we end up trading him.
Again... The caveat is I DO NOT want to use #2, so it would depend on what a 3rd team would send us for that.

?s=21

Ruzious wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if Wiggins ends up being an all-star caliber player. He came into the NBA at 19 very immature and stayed that way for a several seasons, but last season he took a big step up, and he can easily take another step up just by improving his 3 point shooting consistency - he's got a nice looking shot. He's also a talented defender and seemed to put his mind into it more.

Wiggins has horrible hip bend. Golden State secretly can't wait to get rid of him.

Frichuela wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=21

Yup. At least he is honest. That's exactly what he was doing, and it is totally understandable. He wants to be loyal to the team, but he is making sure he puts enough pressure on management to build a winning team around him. I'd do the same thing if I was in his shoes.

Frichuela wrote:

Read on Twitter

?s=21

"But but but but you're overreacting! Beal ain't going nowhere!"

The handwriting is on the wall. Obviously don't sell low on him but the longer they wait the less leverage to get the best deal. I'd love to see the Wizards be successful with Bradley but I've seen this story too many times. But my interest in the Wizards over the last three years at least is so low my opinion shouldn't matter.

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Benjammin wrote:The handwriting is on the wall. Obviously don't sell low on him but the longer they wait the less leverage to get the best deal. I'd love to see the Wizards be successful with Bradley but I've seen this story too many times. But my interest in the Wizards over the last three years at least is so low my opinion shouldn't matter.

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I 100 percent agree.
Beal is a scorer, he's is not a two way player if we want to be brutally honest. If he doesn't want to be here, do like New Orleans did and make sure get the most while he is hot. He has shown that he is not michael jordan. He is going to take a bunch of rag tag scrubs and carry them to playoffs. Beal is complimentary piece, not the center piece of a championship team. It would be nice if he retired here and became a permanent fixture of the wizard organization, possible even GM or Owner one day.

But he has failed to bring in his version of draymond green. Beal is basically a klay thompson clone and he has incredible decision making power with wizards. He easily could have worked behind the scenes with scouts to identify the player that most resembles draymond green to make his life easier and the team more effective.
the ball was in Beal's court and he failed to control the washington organization during his reign. His reign is now, he is king, and he has all types of leverage to make the correct moves. Beal has the opportunity to face of organization and be the executive behind the scenes making operational decision. I am pretty sure Beal has far more power than Shepherd in the eyes of Leonsis.
If Beal can tap into is high BBIQ and bring in a draymond clone (pick setter, excellent handles, defensive, high BBIQ, that motivates his team and is a natural leader) obviously that's hard to find...but Beal has the power in DC to control management almost like Lebron does in LA, we will see alot winning here in DC.

WizarDynasty wrote:...Beal is a scorer, he's is not a two way player.... Beal is complimentary piece, not the center piece of a championship team....

This is absolutely correct. & you could say the same about John Wall. (note: this doesn't mean that either of them is not a terrific NBA player, a "star" at some level)

WizarDynasty wrote:...If he doesn't want to be here, do like New Orleans did and make sure get the most while he is hot....

This too is absolutely correct.

& why would he not want to be here? The only reason I can think of is because we're not going to be "...a championship team" -- i.e. a contender.

& why aren't we going to be a contender? Because we are committed to "building around John Wall & Bradley Beal." (Of course, some tremendous piece of luck could still put us there -- but not this strategy)

WizarDynasty wrote:...It would be nice if he retired here and became a permanent fixture of the wizard organization, possible even GM or Owner one day....

Brad is a great guy, & that would be terrific.

WizarDynasty wrote:...But he has failed to bring in his version of draymond green....

Whoa there, partner!! On the day Ernie was fired, we had not a single player he'd drafted aside from John & Brad (with the exception of Troy Brown). There's the failure -- can't put it one Brad or anyone else.

WizarDynasty wrote:...Beal ...has incredible decision making power with wizards. He easily could have worked behind the scenes with scouts to identify the player that most resembles draymond green to make his life easier and the team more effective.
the ball was in Beal's court and he failed to control the washington organization during his reign. His reign is now, he is king, and he has all types of leverage to make the correct moves. Beal has the opportunity to face of organization and be the executive behind the scenes making operational decision. I am pretty sure Beal has far more power than Shepherd in the eyes of Leonsis.
If Beal can tap into is high BBIQ and bring in a draymond clone (pick setter, excellent handles, defensive, high BBIQ, that motivates his team and is a natural leader) obviously that's hard to find...but Beal has the power in DC to control management almost like Lebron does in LA, we will see alot winning here in DC.

Like Lebron? See above under "not a centerpiece."

You both overestimate Leonsis & at the same time you underestimate him.

You underestimate him, because you don't seem to understand that he's purely a businessman -- & that his business is not the Wizards (not the Caps or the arena either), it's Monumental Sports. That's a business. The Wizards are one of that business's products. Something Monumental sells to the public. Just like the hot dogs, that product has to be good enough to get the public to pay for it. Period. He's never shown that he's interested in an NBA title.

You overestimate Leonsis, because you seem to think he's some kind of especially outstanding businessman. He's certainly more than competent, but he had one lucky break -- he rode on the coattails of Steve Case, a true entrepreneur, who founded AOL. Since then, he hasn't made anything he's invested in work especially well. Not dinging him -- but, you may be putting more faith in him than is altogether warranted....

payitforward wrote:

WizarDynasty wrote:...Beal is a scorer, he's is not a two way player.... Beal is complimentary piece, not the center piece of a championship team....

This is absolutely correct. & you could say the same about John Wall. (note: this doesn't mean that either of them is not a terrific NBA player, a "star" at some level)

WizarDynasty wrote:...If he doesn't want to be here, do like New Orleans did and make sure get the most while he is hot....

This too is absolutely correct.

& why would he not want to be here? The only reason I can think of is because we're not going to be "...a championship team" -- i.e. a contender.

& why aren't we going to be a contender? Because we are committed to "building around John Wall & Bradley Beal." (Of course, some tremendous piece of luck could still put us there -- but not this strategy)

WizarDynasty wrote:...It would be nice if he retired here and became a permanent fixture of the wizard organization, possible even GM or Owner one day....

Brad is a great guy, & that would be terrific.

WizarDynasty wrote:...But he has failed to bring in his version of draymond green....

Whoa there, partner!! On the day Ernie was fired, we had not a single player he'd drafted aside from John & Brad (with the exception of Troy Brown). There's the failure -- can't put it one Brad or anyone else.

WizarDynasty wrote:...Beal ...has incredible decision making power with wizards. He easily could have worked behind the scenes with scouts to identify the player that most resembles draymond green to make his life easier and the team more effective.
the ball was in Beal's court and he failed to control the washington organization during his reign. His reign is now, he is king, and he has all types of leverage to make the correct moves. Beal has the opportunity to face of organization and be the executive behind the scenes making operational decision. I am pretty sure Beal has far more power than Shepherd in the eyes of Leonsis.
If Beal can tap into is high BBIQ and bring in a draymond clone (pick setter, excellent handles, defensive, high BBIQ, that motivates his team and is a natural leader) obviously that's hard to find...but Beal has the power in DC to control management almost like Lebron does in LA, we will see alot winning here in DC.

Like Lebron? See above under "not a centerpiece."

You both overestimate Leonsis & at the same time you underestimate him.

You underestimate him, because you don't seem to understand that he's purely a businessman -- & that his business is not the Wizards (not the Caps or the arena either), it's Monumental Sports. That's a business. The Wizards are one of that business's products. Something Monumental sells to the public. Just like the hot dogs, that product has to be good enough to get the public to pay for it. Period. He's never shown that he's interested in an NBA title.

You overestimate Leonsis, because you seem to think he's some kind of especially outstanding businessman. He's certainly more than competent, but he had one lucky break -- he rode on the coattails of Steve Case, a true entrepreneur, who founded AOL. Since then, he hasn't made anything he's invested in work especially well. Not dinging him -- but, you may be putting more faith in him than is altogether warranted....

I think Ted wants a winning product. He knows the end product, but he needs us to teach him how to get there.

Oh, of course he wants a winning product! How could he want a losing product? Winning products sell better than losing products.

Every owner would like a better team more than a worse team. But, that's not saying much. We're under .500 for the last, what, twenty years?

Results, my friend. That's what matters.

payitforward wrote:Oh, of course he wants a winning product! How could he want a losing product? Winning products sell better than losing products.

Every owner would like a better team more than a worse team. But, that's not saying much. We're under .500 for the last, what, twenty years?

Results, my friend. That's what matters.

Wizard scouts did not properly evaluate hip bend and standing reach in their draft prospect. As you can see, the old guys on this board mention nothing about hip bend-- and how long they can maintain their hip bend while doing athletic movements. , which is probably the "most" important aspect of a basketball player.

Benjammin wrote:The handwriting is on the wall. Obviously don't sell low on him but the longer they wait the less leverage to get the best deal. I'd love to see the Wizards be successful with Bradley but I've seen this story too many times. But my interest in the Wizards over the last three years at least is so low my opinion shouldn't matter.

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That being said, I would be surprised if the Wizards trade Beal at his highest value. We've also seen this story before dealing with all star players like Wall/Arenas. The two options that usually happen are the Wizards re-sign a guy for too much money or the Wizards trade a player but never get the highest value on what they were initially worth (Butler, Jamison, Haywood, Porter) or the Wizards end up trading a player were a less than optimal value (see the 1990s).

The good news for Beal is that he has less wear and tear at 34.6 minutes per game. Also I don't think his perceived value is very high given that he didn't make an all star team or an all NBA team- granted GMs might have a different perception but it may be tied to the public (especially by owners of the teams).

?s=19

Jrue is on the wrong side of 30 and is essentially on a 1 year contract and he got a massive haul. After thinking about it, I think Beal would bring back a ton of assets regardless.

Rafael122 wrote:Jrue is on the wrong side of 30 and is essentially on a 1 year contract and he got a massive haul. After thinking about it, I think Beal would bring back a ton of assets regardless.

There's nothing in this draft i would move Beal for. Last year I would have been on board with some package that netted us Ja Morant +++. The 2021 draft may be a very different story. It makes sense to wait it out till at least the all-star break before deciding on anything or even next year's draft when the true value of the 2021 draft picks will be known.

If we have to move Beal it will be for a haul like that. Just painful that Grunfeld was the GM for so long. He really set the franchise back.