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Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 2:58 pm**

Peak Arenas today would basically be James Harden. Arenas played in the wrong era and was coached by Eddie Jordan.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 3:06 pm**

CobraCommander wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:Just for fun combining both those teams (06-07 with 16-17)

PG- Wall, Daniels
SG- Arenas, Beal, Stevenson
SF- Butler, Bogdonovic
PF- Porter, Jamison, Morris
C- Gortat, Haywood

Not really all that much better than our current squad, IMO. Other than the depth of the 2nd unit, of course.

Just give me our current squad and replace Jennings with Arenas and we'd do just as well.

I so disagree. The combined squad would be favorite to win the title.

can you imagine Wall streaking with Beal in the left corner and Areanas in the right? PICK YOUR SURFACE OF THE SUN!

You could sit Wall or Beal and Gil could run either the point or 2 effectively with the "second" unit.

Our small ball would be Wall, Beal, Gil, Butler and Jamison... Death Line UP!

The Defensive unit... Butler and... and...well we could play good team defense...

There's no way. They wouldn't even beat Cleveland.

Defensively they'd be pretty average, and have no one on that roster who can stop LeBron. Not even mentioning GSW.

Also, Arenas playing off-ball is a huge waste and would severely mitigate his value. He'd need to come off the bench and run things like Jamal Crawford does with LAC. Beal would undoubtedly be better next to Wall than Arenas would since he's more efficient at lower volume and a better defender.

Morris would also need to start because Porter can't guard most starting 4s for long stretches. The bench unit would be sick, though, as it would be the entire Arenas era starting unit lol.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 3:12 pm**

Kanyewest wrote:Butler/Jamison/Hughes/Stevenson/Jeffries/Dixon essentially had career years in Washington. A combination of Gilbert Arenas and Eddie Jordan's offense.

BTW, I suspect Arenas would be even more efficient with Beal/Porter and for that matter Washington's current starting 5. Arenas took about as many shots as Wall on per 100 possession basis so at least Beal/Porter would be allowed as many touches. Arenas also did set up his teammates for open 3s, they simply took less because of the philosophy of the era vs today and that there wasn't as much of an emphasis on 3s. For instance, someone like Caron Butler would have worked much more on his 3 point shot rather than his patented mid range jumper. Plus Jamison/Hayes weren't exactly great 3 point shooters.

Mostly agree with this. Arenas would be much more efficient playing today than he was 10 years ago both because of the pieces Washington has today and the evolution of offensive philosophy across the NBA. Arenas would be James Harden today.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 3:16 pm**

nate33 wrote:
CobraCommander wrote:
nate33 wrote:Not really all that much better than our current squad, IMO. Other than the depth of the 2nd unit, of course.

Just give me our current squad and replace Jennings with Arenas and we'd do just as well.

I so disagree. The combined squad would be favorite to win the title.

can you imagine Wall streaking with Beal in the left corner and Areanas in the right? PICK YOUR SURFACE OF THE SUN!

You could sit Wall or Beal and Gil could run either the point or 2 effectively with the "second" unit.

Our small ball would be Wall, Beal, Gil, Butler and Jamison... Death Line UP!

The Defensive unit... Butler and... and...well we could play good team defense...

You really only need to go 8-deep in the playoffs. Our current team, plus Arenas, would look something like this:

PG Wall/Arenas
SG Arenas/Beal
SF Porter/Oubre
PF Morris/Bodganovic
C Gortat/Mahinmi

What's better about your team? The backcourt is the same (Daniels doesn't play at all behind Wall and Arenas). The centers are the same (Mahinmi and Haywood are essentially the same player). The only difference is at forward. You have Butler, Porter and Jamison as your primary rotation players, with Porter playing out of position at PF. That's a lot of offense, but do we really need it on a team with such an insane backcourt? I'd be just as happy with Morris' defensive versatility in the starting lineup.

Porter is already rebounding at a higher rate than Morris but you are right that Morris is a better low post defender. Perhaps, I was thinking more about the NBA Finals lineup against the Death lineup of the Warriors as Porter is better on switches (although maybe starting Morris or Jamison at center would be a good way to counter that) and yes I guess there may be more matchups which dictate starting a bigger power forward. Beal may also have to start in some instances against quicker point guards like Thomas or Steph Curry.

I would also like the option of throwing 4 different guys at different times on LeBron James especially since having only 2 of them could force you to get in foul trouble. Oubre is still young at this stage of his career as well.

But yeah, that rotation is overkill but would take it over the current construction of the roster

Plus you could afford to rest the starters a lot in the regular season to save them for their championship run.

BTW, I could still see Golden State beating this team. Chances would improve with the depth since the Wizards would have more small ball options.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 4:07 pm**

nate33 wrote:I think Harden is an apt comparison for Arenas, but I think you are overstating it to say that Arenas is a "rich man's" Harden. Indeed, it would be more accurate to state that Arenas was a poor man's Harden. Harden is better at drawing fouls than Arenas ever was. Arenas was aggressive at driving to the basket, but not nearly as crafty as Harden in seeking out contact from outstretched arms. Harden scores more, assists more, and rebounds better on a per possession basis, with a higher ORtg.

And Arenas wasn't any better of a 3-point shooter than Harden. They're both excellent shooters with 3P% that are skewed low because of their ridiculous number of 3-point attempts off the dribble. Over his 3 year peak, Arenas averaged .361 from 3 point range on 9 attempts per 100 possessions. Over the last 3 years, Harden has averaged .359 of 10.6 attempts per 100 possessions. If anything, Harden might be a bit better if you assume each of his marginal shot attempts is coming under greater defensive pressure.

Arenas was good but you are romanticizing him a bit. He wasn't THAT good. He definitely wasn't a top 20-30 all time great. At the time, he was considered roughly the 10th best player in the game. He made two All-NBA 3rd teams and one All-NBA 2nd team. He essentially had 3 years that weren't quite as good as Isaiah Thomas this year. (Thomas averages 42 points per 100 possessions with an ORtg of 122. Arenas averaged 37 per 100 with an ORtg of 115, albeit with more actual minutes played and slightly better D.)

I'm somewhat mentally adjusting for era. EJ's offense honestly didn't play to Gilbert's strengths, while D'Antoni's offense plays heavily to Harden's strengths. EJ ran a highly structured offense that undermined Gilbert's ability to create in open court. This also made his sky high usage less efficient than it could have been. Jamison and Butler weren't the best fits too (where Beal and Porter are basically ideal). The fact that we're comparing IT to Arenas is actually very telling because IT is also in a nearly ideal system and team for him.

Also if Arenas had played at a top 15-10 level for 10 years, and occasionally plays at a top 5 level, that probably puts him at the 30ish range all time at worst.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 6:45 pm**

Chaos Revenant wrote:
nate33 wrote:I think Harden is an apt comparison for Arenas, but I think you are overstating it to say that Arenas is a "rich man's" Harden. Indeed, it would be more accurate to state that Arenas was a poor man's Harden. Harden is better at drawing fouls than Arenas ever was. Arenas was aggressive at driving to the basket, but not nearly as crafty as Harden in seeking out contact from outstretched arms. Harden scores more, assists more, and rebounds better on a per possession basis, with a higher ORtg.

And Arenas wasn't any better of a 3-point shooter than Harden. They're both excellent shooters with 3P% that are skewed low because of their ridiculous number of 3-point attempts off the dribble. Over his 3 year peak, Arenas averaged .361 from 3 point range on 9 attempts per 100 possessions. Over the last 3 years, Harden has averaged .359 of 10.6 attempts per 100 possessions. If anything, Harden might be a bit better if you assume each of his marginal shot attempts is coming under greater defensive pressure.

Arenas was good but you are romanticizing him a bit. He wasn't THAT good. He definitely wasn't a top 20-30 all time great. At the time, he was considered roughly the 10th best player in the game. He made two All-NBA 3rd teams and one All-NBA 2nd team. He essentially had 3 years that weren't quite as good as Isaiah Thomas this year. (Thomas averages 42 points per 100 possessions with an ORtg of 122. Arenas averaged 37 per 100 with an ORtg of 115, albeit with more actual minutes played and slightly better D.)

I'm somewhat mentally adjusting for era. EJ's offense honestly didn't play to Gilbert's strengths, while D'Antoni's offense plays heavily to Harden's strengths. EJ ran a highly structured offense that undermined Gilbert's ability to create in open court. This also made his sky high usage less efficient than it could have been. Jamison and Butler weren't the best fits too (where Beal and Porter are basically ideal). The fact that we're comparing IT to Arenas is actually very telling because IT is also in a nearly ideal system and team for him.

Also if Arenas had played at a top 15-10 level for 10 years, and occasionally plays at a top 5 level, that probably puts him at the 30ish range all time at worst.

It's tough to make the era comparison. You may be right that Arenas would be even better in today's game, but it's far from certain. Don't forget that EJ ran an offense with a stretch four in Jamison. We didn't have as much shooting on the wings, but at least they were running 4-out sets. And this was at a time when the opposition's defensive personnel weren't as adapted to guard it.

Regarding the HOF question, I don't think it's reasonable to assume Arenas could have maintained 10 years of peak production. Explosive guards who depend on quickness rarely have 10 years of elite success. Guys like Isiah Thomas (the Detroit one), Kevin Johnson, Tim Hardaway etc. were injury prone and had relatively short peaks. It's the ones who do it with craftiness and skill, like Nash, Stockton and Kidd, that have the long careers. The one notable exception I can think of is Iverson.

Unfortunately, I suspect that this rule will apply to Wall as well. I don't think he'll remain an elite penetrator and a one-man fast break for more than another 4 years or so. Hopefully, he'll adapt and have a second-half career much like the second-half of Jason Kidd's career (or Chauncey Billups'). If he can hone that 3-pointer, he can still be effective as a cerebral coach-on-the-floor who sees all the angles, plays good D, rebounds well, posts up smaller guards, and stretches the floor with his 3-point shot.

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 7:07 pm**

Arenas was an entertainer on and off the court. He was hilarious, he could score 60 and win you any game. He was a superstar, in that he was kicking ass, everyone recognized him, and he rejuvenated DC basketball....it was pure joy to watch and have everyone go crazy. Really those times were awesome. John Wall is just so different, but I'm leaning heavily towards J.W. being the much better basketball player.

Arenas was my favorite player for a long time, the **** he did, the way he played, just brought so much excitement. Oh, you're down 12 going into the 4th? No prob, He was probably going to score 20pts alone. The team right now with wall, is extremely fun to watch, and Wall is doing an amazing job leading them.

I just wish Arenas didn't turn into a punk, and say all the stupid things he is saying now. He's the same person he was, I was probably just blinded by the 3-ball!

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 7:19 pm**

Kanyewest wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
ozthegap wrote: Hold up hold up! I hate Kobe as much as the next guy but that stretching it a little. Arenas had Hardin like D Kobe was great on both ends of the court. Also if Wall plays great in the ecf I think you have to give it to him hands down

Also, Wade always got the better of prime Gilbert.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

Having Shaq helped. And all the other guys like Mourning, Haslem,and a young Rasual Butler .

You mean to tell me Etan Thomas, Jared Jeffries, Brendan Haywood, and DeShawn Stevenson weren't as good as the Miami supporting cast?

Good point!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

Posted: **Wed May 10, 2017 10:45 pm**

Peak Arenas > Peak Wall (so far).

With that being said, to answer the OP, I'd comfortably go with Wall. Elite, pass-first, two way point guards are basketball unicorns in their own right nowadays. Lets say Arenas at his absolute peak had Harden's skill set. That's still not a given he would ever even reach Harden level impact though. Do you trust the Wizards to build the correct roster and philosophy to truly unlock his prime? We're talking Morey vs. Grunfield here. On the other hand, with Wall you limit yourself less with how many ways you can construct a championship roster.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2017 5:10 am**

I feel like this thread has jinxed Wall a bit.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2017 12:45 pm**

I was on these boards back then 10-11 years ago and I still maintain that there has not been another player I've seen a LeBron Cavs team play that I feared more than Arenas.... Even the last 2 years in the finals and how good Curry has been built up to be-- going into a series, Gil has always been the one player whom I never felt the Cavs could stop...

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2017 12:51 am**

gtn130 wrote:Peak Arenas today would basically be James Harden. Arenas played in the wrong era and was coached by Eddie Jordan.

How do you know your last coach sucks? When coaching your team is thier last big/good job (or even their next to last big job).

If no one wants your coach your coach sucks!

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2017 2:29 am**

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Also, Wade always got the better of prime Gilbert.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

Having Shaq helped. And all the other guys like Mourning, Haslem,and a young Rasual Butler .

You mean to tell me Etan Thomas, Jared Jeffries, Brendan Haywood, and DeShawn Stevenson weren't as good as the Miami supporting cast?

Good point!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using RealGM mobile app

You mean Rasual Butler was once young?

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2017 8:08 pm**

Arenas was a horrible defender. He was not good at making his team mates better than what they would be without him. If wall wins this series, he is definitely better than arenas.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2017 8:13 pm**

Wall can end this debate with some great back to back games.

Posted: **Sat May 13, 2017 4:10 am**

BOOM muthagluckers! Taking the elevator up 1 level please.

Posted: **Sat May 13, 2017 4:41 am**

Read on Twitter

Posted: **Wed May 6, 2020 7:52 pm**

Bump because I'm bored and I'm arguing with someone who thinks anyone is an idiot who takes Peak Arenas over peak wall.

Posted: **Wed May 13, 2020 2:38 am**

Kanyewest wrote:Bump because I'm bored and I'm arguing with someone who thinks anyone is an idiot who takes Peak Arenas over peak wall.

Having started this thread, I still give a slight advantage to peak Gil over both peak Wall AND peak Beal.

Posted: **Wed May 13, 2020 2:03 pm**

Shanghai Kid wrote:
Kanyewest wrote:Bump because I'm bored and I'm arguing with someone who thinks anyone is an idiot who takes Peak Arenas over peak wall.

Having started this thread, I still give a slight advantage to peak Gil over both peak Wall AND peak Beal.

I concur.

Going by peaks, it's Arenas > Beal > Wall.

Beal is getting pretty close to Arenas though. I give Arenas the edge due to his clutchness, but statistically (after adjusting for era), they're really close. And Beal is almost certainly a better locker room leader. If Beal could manage to have a peak defense year simultaneous with a peak or near-peak offensive year, he might edge out Arenas.

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