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NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4

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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1641 » by tontoz » Mon Nov 4, 2019 7:09 pm

closg00 wrote:
payitforward wrote:They got the #10 (i.e. Reddish) in that move? Would have been hard to turn down the trade. Doncic is looking unbelievably great this season. Then again, so is Trae Young! :)

But Reddish... good god....


I believe this is correct, ATL used the extra Dallas pick this summer on Reddish. Don't have time to look it up so please correct me if I'm wrong


Yes you can certainly argue that the trade itself was good. Wasting the 10th pick on Reddish was horrible. He could be out of the league before his rookie deal is over.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1642 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Nov 4, 2019 7:15 pm

nate33 wrote:Meanwhile, Doncic is the prototype playmaking wing that has been the focal point of nearly every champion in the modern era, whether it's Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi. If you don't have one of those guys, you better have a transcendent top 10 All-Time center like Hakeem or Duncan or you're not winning. Playmaking wings allow you to play bigger defenders at the PG position, eliminating the weakest point in the defense.

I'd take Doncic over Trae ten times out of ten.


I don't think Doncic is that kind of prototype, though. His defense isn't up to par as far as I can tell and I'm not optimistic that ever changes. He has more in common with Nikola Jokic than Lebron or Kawhi on the defensive side of things and Jokic is honestly better defensively. Dirk did win a championship, though. Luka has a long way to go defensively to catch Dirk, who was a sneaky good defender, but it's also proof that you don't need to be Lebron or Kawhi on defense to make things work.

In my view, neither Luka nor Trae fit that prototype. I tend to think that when we're dealing with a sample size of less than 100, though, that "prototypes" tend to be misleading. Really, it just comes down to someone being really, really good at basketball. Jerry West also won a championship as a diminutive guard. He always seems to get left out of these discussions. Prototypes aren't prototypes until they happen and then they are. It's less likely that a diminutive guard is going to be really, really good at basketball which limits the sample size a bit but at the same time, once you've already established that player as being pretty damn good, that qualification is out the window. I think a team could win a title with either Luka or Trae once they both hit their primes. It all comes down to how good the supporting cast would need to be.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1643 » by doclinkin » Mon Nov 4, 2019 8:43 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
I think Young and Luka looks close enough that I can't see any regrets. Young seems like a rich man's Steve Nash. The idea that anyone would have predicted either of these guys would be as good as they are immediately is simply not true or representative of people who were way out of touch.



Many people predicted Luka would be instantly good, since he was dominating Euroball since he was 16. Not with athleticism but a shifty crafty game and preternatural feel for the moment. It was the sort of game that would be unlikely to drop off even when faced with bigger stronger opponents since he grew up playing against bigger stronger opponents.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1644 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 4, 2019 9:33 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
nate33 wrote:Meanwhile, Doncic is the prototype playmaking wing that has been the focal point of nearly every champion in the modern era, whether it's Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi. If you don't have one of those guys, you better have a transcendent top 10 All-Time center like Hakeem or Duncan or you're not winning. Playmaking wings allow you to play bigger defenders at the PG position, eliminating the weakest point in the defense.

I'd take Doncic over Trae ten times out of ten.


I don't think Doncic is that kind of prototype, though. His defense isn't up to par as far as I can tell and I'm not optimistic that ever changes. He has more in common with Nikola Jokic than Lebron or Kawhi on the defensive side of things and Jokic is honestly better defensively. Dirk did win a championship, though. Luka has a long way to go defensively to catch Dirk, who was a sneaky good defender, but it's also proof that you don't need to be Lebron or Kawhi on defense to make things work.

In my view, neither Luka nor Trae fit that prototype. I tend to think that when we're dealing with a sample size of less than 100, though, that "prototypes" tend to be misleading. Really, it just comes down to someone being really, really good at basketball. Jerry West also won a championship as a diminutive guard. He always seems to get left out of these discussions. Prototypes aren't prototypes until they happen and then they are. It's less likely that a diminutive guard is going to be really, really good at basketball which limits the sample size a bit but at the same time, once you've already established that player as being pretty damn good, that qualification is out the window. I think a team could win a title with either Luka or Trae once they both hit their primes. It all comes down to how good the supporting cast would need to be.

I didn't mean to imply that Luka is the defender that Jordan/Lebron/Kawhi were. I just meant that, as a big wing, he isn't the exploitable defensive liability that diminutive guards are. Most teams have at least one wing or big man who is merely a complementary threat - a guy like Tucker or Aminu. You can put Luka on that guy and your defense will still be good. But Trae Young can't be hidden on a 6-8 power forward. He has to guard someone small, and most small players are adept offensively.

I think Luka will be similar to a guy like Magic or Bird - an elite offensive player who gets everyone involved while also being a heady if not agile defender who can hide on weak offensive players and play the passing lanes with his basketball IQ.

And Jerry West was 6-3.5 in an era when players were shorter (and I believe that's a no-shoes height). That's like being 6-5 these days. Here's a picture alongside 6-6 Kobe Bryant:

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Now factor Kobe's presumably thicker shoes and West's age-related compression of the vertebrae.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1645 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Nov 4, 2019 9:38 pm

Jerry West is listed as 6'2"... And players haven't necessarily gotten bigger now. We don't see a lot of legit 7 footers, for example. A picture with Kobe behind him, leaning back with his head tilted back while his shoulder is noticeably higher than West's doesn't show anything necessarily.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1646 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 4, 2019 9:39 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:Jerry West is listed as 6'2"... And players haven't necessarily gotten bigger now. We don't see a lot of legit 7 footers, for example.


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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1647 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Nov 4, 2019 9:41 pm

Do what you want with the data. You're still dealing with very small sample sixes. Bird and Magic aren't exactly prototypes themselves.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1648 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Nov 4, 2019 9:44 pm

doclinkin wrote:
I_Like_Dirt wrote:
I think Young and Luka looks close enough that I can't see any regrets. Young seems like a rich man's Steve Nash. The idea that anyone would have predicted either of these guys would be as good as they are immediately is simply not true or representative of people who were way out of touch.



Many people predicted Luka would be instantly good, since he was dominating Euroball since he was 16. Not with athleticism but a shifty crafty game and preternatural feel for the moment. It was the sort of game that would be unlikely to drop off even when faced with bigger stronger opponents since he grew up playing against bigger stronger opponents.
Fair enough. It's easy to find outrageous takes on the internet. The idea that a player is ever "likely" to be a superstar is just wrong. There were people who predicted Trae Young would be a superstar, too. Granted, Young surprised more people than Luka, but that's sort of my point: people are looking for reasons that they were right about Young rather than considering they might have been wrong.

Edit:

To be clear, this isn't about doubting Luka, to me. Lebron was such a unicorn as a teenager, to suggest it was realistic to believe he was going to be arguably better as a teenager than Lebron is just a stretch to me. I also don't see a reason to doubt Trae just because there were maybe one or two more players who were a little more like him that won championships than guys who won championships who were sort of comparable to Trae. Was Nash really worse than Kidd just because he didn't win a championship? I'm not going to doubt either Trae or Luka until they give me a reason to do so. Similarly, I'm not going to believe in Reddish until he gives me a reason to do so.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1649 » by closg00 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 11:52 am

GSW beat Portland without: Curry, Green & Russell behind some 2nd round player named Eric Paschall
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1650 » by queridiculo » Tue Nov 5, 2019 2:01 pm

closg00 wrote:
payitforward wrote:They got the #10 (i.e. Reddish) in that move? Would have been hard to turn down the trade. Doncic is looking unbelievably great this season. Then again, so is Trae Young! :)

But Reddish... good god....


I believe this is correct, ATL used the extra Dallas pick this summer on Reddish. Don't have time to look it up so please correct me if I'm wrong


I haven't changed my mind that the Hawks and Kings passing on him was a foolish move from the outset.

Doncic is head and shoulders above everybody in that draft class, no amount of 30 point games by Young will ever convince me that he will end up having a better pro career.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1651 » by Ruzious » Tue Nov 5, 2019 2:30 pm

queridiculo wrote:
closg00 wrote:
payitforward wrote:They got the #10 (i.e. Reddish) in that move? Would have been hard to turn down the trade. Doncic is looking unbelievably great this season. Then again, so is Trae Young! :)

But Reddish... good god....


I believe this is correct, ATL used the extra Dallas pick this summer on Reddish. Don't have time to look it up so please correct me if I'm wrong


I haven't changed my mind that the Hawks and Kings passing on him was a foolish move from the outset.

Doncic is head and shoulders above everybody in that draft class, no amount of 30 point games by Young will ever convince me that he will end up having a better pro career.

Agreed - Doncic is LIKELY a future MVP. His defense is nowhere near as bad as Young's, and he dominates a game in more ways than Young does. Also, I question how durable Young will be with his relatively small frame.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1652 » by tontoz » Tue Nov 5, 2019 4:39 pm

The Suns just beat Philly and are 5-2...???
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1653 » by closg00 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 4:56 pm

tontoz wrote:The Suns just beat Philly and are 5-2...???


The two Suns losses (Jazz & Nuggets), were 1-point losses, big surprise team so-far.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1654 » by I_Like_Dirt » Tue Nov 5, 2019 5:00 pm

closg00 wrote:
tontoz wrote:The Suns just beat Philly and are 5-2...???


The two Suns losses (Jazz & Nuggets), were 1-point losses, big surprise team so-far.


Turns out the biggest star the Celtics lost in free agency in the offseason was Aron Baynes.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1655 » by nate33 » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:30 pm

John Collins suspended for 25 games. Wouldn't you know it, the Wizards don't play Atlanta a single time in the next 25 games.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1656 » by Kanyewest » Tue Nov 5, 2019 6:56 pm

Good last couple of days for the Villanova players in the draft. Donte DiVincenzo with 17 points and 7 rebounds off the bench. Eric Paschall with 34 points and 13 boards. Jalen Brunson with 14 points and 6 assists. Josh Hart with 14 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 steals. Although one gripe is that they only had 2 assists combined between Hart/Paschall/DiVincenzo.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1657 » by Ruzious » Tue Nov 5, 2019 10:10 pm

Kanyewest wrote:Good last couple of days for the Villanova players in the draft. Donte DiVincenzo with 17 points and 7 rebounds off the bench. Eric Paschall with 34 points and 13 boards. Jalen Brunson with 14 points and 6 assists. Josh Hart with 14 points, 7 rebounds, and 4 steals. Although one gripe is that they only had 2 assists combined between Hart/Paschall/DiVincenzo.

The Bucks really like DDV's D, though I'm a little surprised he's getting more PT than Sheldon Brown - who looked great in preseason. At some point, I think both DDV and Brown will get more PT than Wes Matthews.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1658 » by payitforward » Wed Nov 6, 2019 2:07 am

Ruzious wrote:
queridiculo wrote:
closg00 wrote:
I believe this is correct, ATL used the extra Dallas pick this summer on Reddish. Don't have time to look it up so please correct me if I'm wrong


I haven't changed my mind that the Hawks and Kings passing on him was a foolish move from the outset.

Doncic is head and shoulders above everybody in that draft class, no amount of 30 point games by Young will ever convince me that he will end up having a better pro career.

Agreed - Doncic is LIKELY a future MVP. His defense is nowhere near as bad as Young's, and he dominates a game in more ways than Young does. Also, I question how durable Young will be with his relatively small frame.

I can't see why anyone would doubt Luka Doncic. He is great, pure & simple.

But, how good Luka is has no bearing on how good Trae Young is -- how could it? &, anyway, that's not the issue: the Hawks got the #10 pick in 2019 in the deal. The issue is what they did with it.

This year's #10 pick was a valuable asset; they wasted it.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1659 » by payitforward » Wed Nov 6, 2019 2:57 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:...The idea that a player is ever "likely" to be a superstar is just wrong. There were people who predicted Trae Young would be a superstar, too. Granted, Young surprised more people than Luka, but that's sort of my point: people are looking for reasons that they were right about Young rather than considering they might have been wrong.

Edit:

To be clear, this isn't about doubting Luka, to me. Lebron was such a unicorn as a teenager, to suggest it was realistic to believe he was going to be arguably better as a teenager than Lebron is just a stretch to me. I also don't see a reason to doubt Trae just because there were maybe one or two more players who were a little more like him that won championships than guys who won championships who were sort of comparable to Trae. Was Nash really worse than Kidd just because he didn't win a championship? I'm not going to doubt either Trae or Luka until they give me a reason to do so. Similarly, I'm not going to believe in Reddish until he gives me a reason to do so.

This also make perfect sense.
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Re: NBA Games Discussion Thread - Part 4 

Post#1660 » by tontoz » Thu Nov 7, 2019 2:47 am

PIF is going to be insufferable tomorrow. The Memphis game is still in the 3rd quarter. So far in 14 minutes of play Clark has 16 points (without a miss anywhere) and 7 rebounds.

The mods may have to step in lol.
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